DISCUSSION THREAD ABOUT DENTAL IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT -

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Qualcast&Flymo

Qualcast&Flymo

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I hope I've put this in the right place, mods feel free to move it if you think it should go under Chat or whatever.

I took Squeaks to my usual vet yesterday, one of his lower incisors had broken low down so I thought they needed burring as he was having difficulty eating his veg. I saw one of the newer more cavy-savvy vets rather than the older one who I know disapproves of conscious piggy dentistry. The vet said she would burr the incisors to even them up as far as possible, then added that she would check his molars as the records showed that the other vet had seen overgrowing molars in February. So I thought I ought to tell her that I had taken Squeaks to Cat & Rabbit to have them done in March. She was very disapproving too! :no::td: and then she said that I probably wouldn't be able to have conscious dental work done on my piggies for much longer. She said that the BVZS has come out against it and is likely to prohibit it in the near future...

They say it is cruel to piggies etc, risks causing injury to the animal's tongue or cheeks, and can't file down the molars properly, only GA allows the vet freedom to do all that should be done safely. I said I knew of lots of piggies who were comfortable and eating again straight after conscious dentals, and also that I felt GA for Squeaks would be risky at his age especially if it had to be done again every few months...

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else had heard this, from their vets or wherever? It's not 'stop press' exactly, I searched the web and there is a piece about it in the Vet Times online from 21st March: Conscious dentals for rabbits and guinea pigs branded unsafe by BVZS I'm wondering where that leaves those of us with piggies with dental problems, and especially what does it mean for TEAS and the Cat & Rabbit clinic's work with dental pigs etc? I can only assume that if the vet societies make a rule about something, all registered vets have to abide by it, or else. Is there anything we can do? I don't know what research they did to be so decided against it ...

:(:(
 
I'd not heard this but I do know my vets totally disapprove of conscious dentals for the reasons you quote. I'd already decided that as I wouldn't be able to travel to Northampton any piggy of mine needing regular dentals would have to be euthanised as there's no way I could afford the cost of regular operations (min £200 here). Also I don't think regular anaesthesia is fair on the guinea pig. This seems a really silly decision, they should be encouraging more vets to learn how to do conscious dentals.
 
Now that is interesting. I wasn't aware of this. I think with any procedure, with any animal, that all options need to be considered. It's not always clear cut.
Surely the welfare of the animal in individual situations needs to be assessed; for example an older animal not being able to stand up to the physiological demands of GA, could still go on to have a healthy life following conscious dental work? It would be really interesting to read the research around how they have assessed physiological stress in the animals undergoing conscious procedures. And what conclusions they have made against the wider outcome.


What's also interesting is that animals tend to be ranked last, in terms of veterinary obligations (when you examine the literature). Vets are obliged to consider client, peers, society and self first. I'm sure there is always going to be much ethical debate to be had there!
Another grey area is the discussion around 'momentary or suffering or injury during interventions'. So is it ok to cause momentary suffering if it benefits the health of the animal in the long run? There's a lot of interesting stuff to be picked from some of the veterinary legislation/literature. Would love to be a fly on the wall at some of these ethics panels!

I wouldn't think twice about putting one of my boys through some slight discomfort for a conscious dental, if it would ensure health in the longer term (disclaimer - personal opinion)! None of my animals enjoy veterinary care. I don't think any of us love a trip to the doctor or dentist?! Woody for example, is under sedation for twice yearly dental work (but only for his and our safety - can't be killing off my equine dentist just yet)!

Being part of the equine industry, I'm used to the debate/opinion around many different topics. As you can imagine, The Grand National Weekend really brought about some discussion... (as always)! We are always challenged on matters such as horse use in sport, procedures, interventions, performance enhancement etc. But I have to admit, it's not often I see much being debated in the guinea pig world - so I'll definitely be following this one.
 
I was aware and have discussed with Simon. For now it’s a recommendation and I won’t be getting into any debates regarding this. I wouldn’t put any animal through a procedure that is dangerous and traumatic as I take animal welfare very seriously, as does Simon.
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
I was aware and have discussed with Simon. For now it’s a recommendation and I won’t be getting into any debates regarding this. I wouldn’t put any animal through a procedure that is dangerous and traumatic as I take animal welfare very seriously, as does Simon.
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It is such an ethical minefield. :(
 
There are similar discussions in Austria and Germany. The specialist vet at the university clinic disapproves of conscious dentals. But my usual vet is very experienced with dentals and does a lot of them without sedation. Only if a piggy fights so hard that it's in danger of injury, she used sedation.
 
Whatever is decided we will have to abide by, but my Wilf would have gone to the bridge much sooner than he did, if he had to have a GA every time he needed dental work . Any animal's welfare is paramount, but I could not afford to pay for a GA every few weeks which would have left me with a dreadful decision to make. I will also add that my vet is an excellent cavy-savvy vet who does conscious dentals
 
As I've already said, I'm not willing to get into a debate, as I have 12 years of results to totally back up what is being done at TEAS. However, what I will say is, it isn't about whether the dental is done with the guinea pig awake, or asleep, it is about doing it correctly. Almost every guinea pig who has been surrendered to TEAS has had a number of GA dentals elsewhere, without any success, with euthanasia being recommended. They've come to us and now live a great life, eating completely normally, as long as they get the quick tidy up of their teeth, at whatever interval is needed for their particular needs. Our guinea pigs aren't frail or needing syringe feed top ups, but eat completely normally, just like a guinea pig, without dental issues, is able to eat!
 
I just wish vets were actually given proper training in the first place. Guinea pig knowledge in general is appalling compared to cats and dogs and I still believe there is a £5 pet/child’s pet mentality among some vets which should change.
As for conscious dentals, my Ted would not have had those extra healthy 2.5 years plus life if it hadn’t been for Simon/Kim. He was PTS due to an unrelated kidney problem totally unrelated to dental problems at almost 6 years old
Ted had many dentals and came out every time unstressed and happy. All pets/humans given a choice aren’t keen on visits to vets/doctors and I see conscious dentals as no different to any other life saving procedure. I know which I’d choose between GA and conscious everytime
 
VERY IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT FOR ANYONE WHO HAS HAD A GUINEA PIG TREATED FOR DENTAL ISSUES BY SIMON OR KIM MADDOCK AT THE CAT AND RABBIT CARE CLINIC

WE NEED YOUR HELP!

Some of you may already be aware of a Position Statement that was published in March 2023 by the British Veterinary Zoological Society, regarding the use of anaesthesia in rabbit, guinea pig and chinchilla dental procedures. I will add the link to this document, at the bottom of this announcement.
Unfortunately, it is looking increasingly likely that the use of conscious dentals will be prohibited, which means unthinkable consequences for our ‘extra special dental piggies’ here at TEAS, as well as to the very many more guinea pigs, who benefit from this life-saving dental work.
We would like to put together as much evidence, to show the success of this procedure and this is where you can help! We are, therefore, collecting testimonials from owners, who have, or have had, guinea pigs with dental disease that have been treated by Simon and Kim! If you can help by submitting a testimonial, please do so!
This method of treating dental issues works so well and the results speak for themselves! In the 12 years that TEAS has been running, we have been able to save the lives of so many and it would be a complete travesty if this had to stop!
This does mean that for the foreseeable future, TEAS will be unable to offer places to any further guinea pigs with dental issues, which is heart-breaking, but for now we need to concentrate on fighting this!

https://www.bvzs.co.uk/wp-content/u...XbUga7VupY1Ci_Ns3h9Zw9g7XTvKawxQ9wtzy8Pb4eWdw
 
Pepper had a tooth root abscess marsupialised by Kim and Simon. He had an anaesthetic so I’m afraid I can’t help with the testimonials. I really hope enough people come forward to make a difference.
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
The BVZS are saying a procedure they’ve never observed is unethical! I find this totally offensive! Simon and Kim would never compromise animal welfare!
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I totally agree,no one can come to a conclusion unless they have seen the procedure, how many piggies would have passed away without this intervention .How many piggies have been saved from what seems Incompetent dentistry.
I'm happy to write a recommendation of my piggies.
 
Having never used the cat and rabbit, I cant give a testimonial but I really hope at the very least an exemption can be granted for them once all evidence is gathered.
 
This is outrageous. You only have to look at Shelly to see how well this procedure works. She has gone from being an undernourished piggy written off by her vet ( who couldn't treat her dental issues) to a happy and healthy girl living a normal life. However, without these regular dentals she will not survive. What happens to piggies like Shelly if this ban goes ahead.😭😭
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
Please can you email to:

[email protected]
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Could we raise a petition ? Many of us have been fortunate to not need the specialist help of Simon and Kim BUT we have seen the evidence of so many piggies miraculously recovering ! It is shocking that a decision like 5his can be made without those making the decisions having seen the procedure ! I’m aghast !!
 
This is outrageous! I have not had piggies treated by Simon or Kim but I have had a piggie treated by another gp expert vet, who had to have conscious dental treatment on a regular basis. Without that treatment he would have had to be euthanised purely on the basis of me being unable to afford anaesthetics each time and the fact that piggies tend not tolerate it. Having to make the dreadful decision to euthanise on that is beyond heartbreaking.
 
My Meg survived for another 2 years only because Simon and Kim worked their magic. My vet who is very good with piggies, and is considered to be the piggie expert at my vets, couldn't work out what was wrong. Kim took a look at Meg and discovered that she had a tooth spur that was lacerating her cheek and gave her a conscious dental. We went back a fortnight later for another conscious dental, this time with Simon. After a couple of months of only eating grass and soft veg, the cheek healed and then she was confident enough to try some hay and never looked back!
 
I haven’t had any piggies who I can cite as examples in support, but there are many piggies and owners who’ve used this forum over the years who have benefited. I hope that the society reconsiders its position once they have observed the procedures in action.
 
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