Auto immune or liver related skin problems - advice needed

[funnehmare]

Since Fudge first arrived he has had rather 'scabby' skin and is constantly trying to scratch his itchiness away. At first I thought his scaly and scabby condition was down to the raging running lice infestation that he and the other two boys had. Dumped them all in the bath and by the of the treatment they were all lice free. About a week or two later I noticed his skin was flaking and scaly looking again, he developed patches which looked identical to fungal. Took him to see the vet and they ran some of the basic tests and everything came back all clear.

However his scratching and coat condition hasn't really improved, it tends to flare up in bouts. He'll be relatively ok for a couple of a weeks and then suddenly (increasingly so when he's experienced some change/stress) it'll rear it's ugly head. Bathing seems to help soothe it for a couple of days but it'll come back with avengeance. One of my other piggies picked a fungal infection which spread to the rest of them, including Fudge, shortly after I moved up North. All cleared up eventually.

Whilst I was there I had a chat with my vet and we ran some more cultures to try and get the bottom of his constant discomfort, again things came back negative. I've been monitoring him for the next month and keep a diary on his weight, eating habits, general character and mood. She indicated that if his skin condition appears to relate to his weight gain/loss - he tends to fluctuate more than the rest - then it is likely to be related to his liver or worse case scenario it may be autoimmune. I'm due back at the vets later next week with Fudge for some blood tests which will hopefully rule out whether or not it is liver related, and if not which step we need to take next. I'm keeping my fingers crossed it is something that can be managed with ongoing treatment and/or medication.

Has anyone got any advice or experience related to skin problems stemming from liver function and/or auto immune disorders? I'd very much appreciate it I hate seeing the poor boy so uncomfortable. Despite everything that's going on with his skin he is such a happy - nosiy - little chappy, always the first to come running for veggies, will sit at the side of his cage for chin rubs and loves more than anything in the world to rearrange his cage and annoy Winston.

I'll try and get some photos of his skin tonight as it is weigh in night, to show how it looks around his face (looks very fungal likes) and around his rump.

Thankyou

 

[Pigjes]

Have you tried a vitamin C course? Lack of can cause skin issues.

A friend's pig had similar skin issues due to ovarian cysts, where the hormones caused this. As soon as the cysts came out, the skin issues cleared up.

Alopecia can also cause bald spots, but then the skin underneath is normal.

I'm considering Cushings Disease here too.

 

[helen105281]

What types of fungal did they test for? Most tests only show up ringworm so if it is negative it is not necessarily the case that there is no fungal. You say that he had fungal later on anyway, are the symptoms now different? I am afraid I can't help with liver function or autoimmune conditions, however, fungal can affect a pig systemically, and this can include weight loss.

 

[SHELLEYMARIE]

I'm all new to this as i only joined this foum today but i am noticing that i am not the only person who's lil Guinea piggy is suffering with skin complaints...my 2 year old lilac Toby has mites and althou had 5 spot on doses of ivermectin has now had an injection from the vet...and now showing signs of hair loss around guinea's front legs on either side and on back? not sure if stress? or unwell? eating and drinking as normal thou ...but quite confused.........! Vet did skin scrape and definately said its mites just hope my guinea hasnt had a reaction to the ivermectin injection? is this possible? or even over dosing of the product?! I'm very worried...as he is just un replaceable ...

 

[funnehmare]

Have you tried a vitamin C course? Lack of can cause skin issues.

A friend's pig had similar skin issues due to ovarian cysts, where the hormones caused this. As soon as the cysts came out, the skin issues cleared up.

Alopecia can also cause bald spots, but then the skin underneath is normal.

I'm considering Cushings Disease here too.

He is on a higher vit c diet than the rest of my piggies and it definitely has gone some way to alleviate the extent of his discomfort, but by no means prevents it. I do wonder if his ability to uptake the vit c is inhibited though? I think I'll add that to my list of questions.

The possibility of cysts is something I've considered as he does self barber quite a bit but the locations alter, I have mentioned this to my vet but she thinks cysts are unlikely. Cushings is something we discussed last time, though from what I've read the diagnosis in piggies is not that common. But hoping the bloods will highlight if there are any elevated liver enzymes which is associated with cushings.

Thankyou for your reply has given me some more food for thought!

What types of fungal did they test for? Most tests only show up ringworm so if it is negative it is not necessarily the case that there is no fungal. You say that he had fungal later on anyway, are the symptoms now different? I am afraid I can't help with liver function or autoimmune conditions, however, fungal can affect a pig systemically, and this can include weight loss.

Thankyou for your reply Helen, it's much appreciated! She did wider spectrum test and cultures (the term she used) and explained it should indicate if ringworm or any of its variant strains was present. He was treated both orally and topically as his case seemed to be the most aggressive, I presume because his skin is generally quite bad to begin with. His symptoms are the same as they were prior to his bout of fungal, there is no change other than the frequency of the patches developing and hair regrowth. Which has increased in frequency but the weather has been ridiculously hot recently and he seems particularly uncomfortable on the hotter days. His weight fluctuation has been ongoing since he arrived last october but again its sporadic and is not on a week on week basis.

 

[funnehmare]

I'm all new to this as i only joined this foum today but i am noticing that i am not the only person who's lil Guinea piggy is suffering with skin complaints...my 2 year old lilac Toby has mites and althou had 5 spot on doses of ivermectin has now had an injection from the vet...and now showing signs of hair loss around guinea's front legs on either side and on back? not sure if stress? or unwell? eating and drinking as normal thou ...but quite confused.........! Vet did skin scrape and definately said its mites just hope my guinea hasnt had a reaction to the ivermectin injection? is this possible? or even over dosing of the product?! I'm very worried...as he is just un replaceable ...

Hi, sorry to hear your piggie is suffering too. Generally a piggies hair is quite thin around his legs and they have 'balder patches' on the inside of the leg and up towards the underside of the tummy. When you say on either side and on the back are you referring specifically to your piggies legs or his actual sides and his back?

 

[MargaretB]

Poor Fudge. I hope you can get to the bottom of his problem.

 

[helen105281]

[QUOTE
Thankyou for your reply Helen, it's much appreciated! She did wider spectrum test and cultures (the term she used) and explained it should indicate if ringworm or any of its variant strains was present. He was treated both orally and topically as his case seemed to be the most aggressive, I presume because his skin is generally quite bad to begin with. His symptoms are the same as they were prior to his bout of fungal, there is no change other than the frequency of the patches developing and hair regrowth. Which has increased in frequency but the weather has been ridiculously hot recently and he seems particularly uncomfortable on the hotter days. His weight fluctuation has been ongoing since he arrived last october but again its sporadic and is not on a week on week basis.[/QUOTE]

What oral meds did he have, was it Itrafungol? if so he may need another round if it does turn out to be fungal related, our vet uses a newish menhod of dosing, which is 3 weeks at 0.5ml twice a day but between each week you would have a week off. So it would take 6 weeks in total. The hot weather can make fungal issues so much worse. I think even the board spectrum tests do just pick up ringworm, other types of fungal are apparently Candida (most common is Candida Albicans), Tricophytans and Dermatyphosis. None of these would show up in the type of tests done for ringworm. I am only just learning the terminology though so my spelling coule be a bit haywire.

 

[funnehmare]

What oral meds did he have, was it Itrafungol? if so he may need another round if it does turn out to be fungal related, our vet uses a newish menhod of dosing, which is 3 weeks at 0.5ml twice a day but between each week you would have a week off. So it would take 6 weeks in total. The hot weather can make fungal issues so much worse. I think even the board spectrum tests do just pick up ringworm, other types of fungal are apparently Candida (most common is Candida Albicans), Tricophytans and Dermatyphosis. None of these would show up in the type of tests done for ringworm. I am only just learning the terminology though so my spelling coule be a bit haywire.

It was intrafungal for two weeks I think it was (I will double check my papers to make sure). I will be at the vets soon so I shall ask about the culture tests and which types of fungal she tested for, I'll note those names down too. The fungal side of things is all a bit new to me! I've not had much experience with piggies with fungal problems before now, luckily! I thought that if it was fungal the patches would continue to get worse rather than clear up after a week or so and then develop again several weeks later but in a different location? His patches of fungal looking skin clear within a few days, the hair regrows and it goes back to normal looking black skin. Which again puts me off the idea it might be fungal related?

I'm just uploading some photos now. They aren't great unfortunately as he is a wriggler and never sits still for very long - too interested in everything else around him to sit for photographs!

 

[funnehmare]

Poor Fudge. I hope you can get to the bottom of his problem.

Thankyou. Me too! It's horrible to see them in distress

 

[funnehmare]

You can just about make out the 'mouldy' looking skin and the new hairs regrowing through.

 

[Pebble]

Thanks for posting the pigtures and sorry to hear poor Fudge is having this repeated problem.

His skin condition definitely looks like a fungal infection. However this “could” be a secondary opportunistic infection that will continue to recur in response to an, as yet, undiagnosed underlying problem that is contributing to a weakened immune system....hence possibly why your vet has already mentioned the possibility of liver and autoimmune issues.

Given there is “possibly” an underlying immuno-compromising or liver problem, repeated treatment with oral anti-fungals may only treat each episode. Given also the risk of liver damage from high or repeated dose oral anti-fungals for piggies - my current vet won;t prescribe them at all - I would suggest you discuss with the vet treating each outbreak as it occurs by [*]topical [/*]means instead. If you feel itrafungol hasn’t cut the mustard but wish to try an alternative oral antifungal first, many years ago, I successfully cleared a similar-looking fungal problem from my herd with griseofulvin. However I think you may find that Bathing followed by applying imaverol diluted in water via a syringe to the coat and leaving to dry is one of the most effective and least risky treatments for fungal and I would also suggest you contact Suzy at GlynneathGPR about associated "plucking" as she has a lot of experience of dealing with these types of fungal condition.

Now let's move on to what might be causing it to keep recurring.

Firstly the most important thing when you have fungal is to clean clean clean to avoid re-infection or cross-contamination!
F10 disinfectant is the only one I have found to date that appears to have proven activity against fungal spores and it is the spore form that hides away waiting to re-infect our lovely piggies at the earliest opportunity. Throw out all wooden hideys etc, boil wash all fabrics – preferably with Vanish peroxide - and allow all plastics a minimum of 15 minutes contact time with F10. Before putting pigs back into their space make sure they have ALL been bathed in suitable anti-fungal...and if necessary had oral anti-fungals. Change gloves and towels between pigs to prevent cross-contamination. Throw the gloves out and the towels into the washing machine for a boil wash. I’m assuming your piggies are indoors – but if they are outdoors in wooden hutches let me know and I’ll post up a cleaning regime for them too.

Secondly the increased Vit C will help but how much extra are you giving? Discuss with your vet but I give anything from 30-100mg/kg extra daily with a piggy that is struggling – even though they also have veggies/pellets etc. You’re right to be considering about ability to process Vit C – some pigs require more than others - and also this piggy may have had a poor start in life and developed scurvy prior to you getting him so will need additional boosts.


Finally in terms of what may be causing this – blood tests "could" be the most definitive means of identifying what is really going on. If for instance it were a systemic fungal infection, this would show on the blood tests because of a high level of a certain type of white cell. Liver and kidney problems can also be diagnosed through biochemistry markers. However from my own experience, blood tests can also be expensively inconclusive. They are also VERY risky for piggies.

Personally, if it were my pig, I would first pursue a new “round” of trying to clear the fungal for good from all areas to prevent reinfection. This would involve disinfection/bathing etc to avoid cross-contamination and re-infection.....with or without oral antifungals, FOR ALL PIGS. At the same time I'd also up the Vit C content and monitor weight/food intake/water intake and poo/urine output....including a urine dipstick test for Fudge.
Next I would opt for Xrays/ultrasound to look for an enlarged heart/tumours/kidney stones.
Only then would I opt for invasive blood tests to try and identify any underlying cause.
Speculation/investigation re liver/auto-immune problems at this point is, in my opinion, a bit premature given the piccies and info you have posted. Obviously there may be additional info and if you want to PM me or have a chat on the phone I am happy to oblige.

HTH