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Ben's problem

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RachelW

RachelW

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I have a problem with Ben, my four year old boar at the moment, and I don't really know what to do with him.
Until last summer, he was a very healthy piggy. Then he had a nasty abscess on his lower jaw; we managed to get rid of it and by help of a lot of flushing the wound and a lot of antibiotics, he got better again and he also gained weight. However, he has lost one of his lower incisors at the time and this never grew back, since he must have lost the root as well. Since then, the upper incisors don't really grow like they are supposed to, and he often loses the one upper incisor because the lower counterpart is missing. The upper one grows back quite quickly, but he keeps losing it because he permanently lost the lower one. This might be one of the reasons why chewing is a problem for him - he eats very slowly since then.

In April, he had bad breathing problems, and the vet diagnosed a pneumonia. There was also water in his lungs, and gas in his stomach and colon. We treated him with antibiotics and also with medicine for the stomach, and he got better. However, he has not put on the weight he has lost back then (he used to weigh about 1060g, and after this illness he was down to 970) and his health has not been perfect then. Soon after the pneumonia and stomach problem, he had problems with his teeth (the molars were overgrown because he had not been eating well) and he needed 2 teeth jobs. He was down to 920g then.
This is his history. Now to his current problem (which might be related, hence the detailed history).

His chewing got better, but then, in July, his breathing started to get a lot worse again. The vet said it is not pneumonia again, because his lungs sounded and looked fine. She said maybe he has problems because of the heat (it was extremely hot in Germany - although Ben is not an outdoor piggy), and she gave him injections to strengthen the immune system and drops to strengthen his heart. He was on those drops for a couple of weeks. Then I noticed that his breathing definitely got worse whenever he ate. Although the vet had already ruled out another stomach problem (because his stomach felt soft and he did not have diarrhoea and was still eating for himself), I saw that his eating must be related to his breathing, because he breathed more heavily after he ate, and this made him stop eating very quickly. So I insisted on another xray, and this showed that his stomach and colon were full of gas again. The lungs seemed ok, and the xray did not show any water retention.
So the vet prescribed a lot of medicine for the stomach problem: herbicolan (herbal drops for the colon), MCP drops (for the stomach), Novalgin (painkiller), probiotics and another kind of drops for the stomach. These are German brands, so I am not sure what the British equivalents are called.
Now Ben has been taking these different kinds of meds for over 3 weeks, but he does not feel any better at all. On the contrary, he is worse since the weekend, and he does not eat for himself at all. I syringe feed him Critical Care, mixed with Critical Care Formula and avipro, which he swallows (he is a very good boy), but he lost even more weight now (he is down to 820g now) and the meds don't seem to help. (I have been syringe feeding him for 4 weeks now).
The vet listened to his heart beat and said this sounded ok, so she does not think his problems are related to his heart. However, his breathing is sometimes better, sometimes worse, but never normal. His whole body is shaking while breathing in and out.
He does not have a cough, nor watery eyes or anything, but he seems very unhappy and not active any more. He hardly comes out of his house. I really want to help him but have no idea what to do, and my vet does not know either. She said our last chance is a medicine that contains cortisone. She hesitated for a long time, because the side effects might be worse than the desired effect, but now I think I must give the cortisone meds to him because all the other stuff does not help.
He developed diarrhoea ever since he is on the medication - maybe one of the meds is causing it (or the meds are influencing each other). The diarrhoea was getting a bit better last week (the poos had a kind of form again rather than just mash), but the poos are still sloppy.

I would be thankful for any suggestion you may have.
 
It might sound daft, but try a little unflavoured Live bio yoghurt - strong anti-biotics can kill off ALL the digestive tracts bacteria - good and bad alike, so a little yoghurt to re-introduce the good ones might help with the runs.

Certainly works on rabbits anyway!

Tony
 
I thought piggies are not supposed to have any dairy? I tried probiotic soya yoghurt before though.
 
not as a regular thing - their digestive tract just isnt set up for digesting it (in humans we would call it lactose intollerant) - but you dont actually want them to digest it, you just need the bacterial shot - ive used about a teaspoon full twice a week for a fortnight several times on nethy dwarf rabbits, when i used to breed them, and theyre digestive tract is broadly very similar - yakult would be best if you can get it.

Tony
 
Just done a quick trawl - see if your vet can get Lactobacilli acidophilus supplements - they do the same job but are non-dairy.

Tony
 
You look like you are doing all you can. I wish I knew more, but all I can do is send Ben my best wishes.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
I am very sorry to hear how poorly Ben has been, Rachel.

One of my past pigs, Tuppy, had very similar problems. She lost one lower incisor permanently, although I was able to file the upper incisors to control the uneven wear created by the lack of the opposing one. She also developed molar trouble, and she had two nasty bouts of pneumonia with fluid-filled lungs that even three doses of diuretic struggled to shift. I remain convinced that she had heart problems, but it was never diagnosed or looked into due to the fact that her heart "sounded" okay.

I believe that of all of Ben's symptoms, the following can be related to heart problems:

- Gas buildup/bloat
- Recurrent URIs or pneumonia
- Dental trouble
- Lethargy

Each of the above can be standalone illnesses of course, but together and especially when each problem never seems to clear up/returns quite frequently, it does often point to the heart. The diarrhoea could be related to the change is his diet (not eating any foods he normally does) or the medications - a probiotic could help ease this problem.

In the US, a trial of heart meds is often the main diagnostic as even xrays don't show the extent of any heart abnormality. Most vets will not give the medication without a firm diagnosis - but there are some who do, and who find that after a few weeks on the treatment, the guinea pigs have a new lease of life and all symptoms have eased. There's more info about the diagnosis and treatment of heart problems on Guinea Lynx:
http://www.guinealynx.info/heart.html

Do keep us updated on Ben's progress, I do hope he recovers soon.
 
pelicano said:
But the pig is already taking probiotics - it's mentioned in the post.
Click to expand...

Probiotics can contain almost any baccilus - and vary widely - Lactobacilli acidophilus is specifically used for repopulating lagomorph digestive tracts - their digestive system is completely different to most other mammals, which is part of the reason why antibiotics can be so dangerous.

As their diet is so heavily dependant on fiborous plant matter, with very little calorific value, their stomach Flora play a HUGE part in breaking it down to be able to extract the goodness from it - when anti-biotics are given they erradicate the flora, and whilst in you or i it might lead to a little weight loss, with GP's it can lead to dramatic weight loss, as without their digestive flora they cant actually extract much in the way of goodness from the food they eat.

Tony
 
alcesterpigs said:
Heart problems related to dental trouble?
How and why?
Click to expand...

In humans heart and dental issues are often linked. Bleeding gums can be a sign of heart disease. Flossing regularly can reduce your chance of heart problems I believe. Not sure if this is similar in guineas though.
 
alcesterpigs said:
Heart problems related to dental trouble?
How and why?
Click to expand...

The pig struggles to eat normally due to lethargy and/or abnormal breathing, sometimes as a result of other related symptoms. As you know, it doesn't take long for a pig who is not eating normally to develop dental problems.
 
"In humans heart and dental issues are often linked. Bleeding gums can be a sign of heart disease. Flossing regularly can reduce your chance of heart problems I believe. Not sure if this is similar in guineas though"

Interesting.
 
Thanks for all your advice.
Laura, I will look up the information on guinea lynx.

Yes, Ben is already taking probiotics (no antibiotics this time, only probiotics), first he got Bene Bac, which is originally for birds, now he gets Avipro.
I did not know that gum and teeth problems can be related to heart problems. I have parodontitis myself, and in my case, the doctors are convinced it is linked to my blood disease (chronic leukocytosis) and my colon disease (colitis ulcerosa), but nobody has ever mentioned heart problems. However, the tooth problems (overgrown molars) in Ben's case surely resulted from him being poorly with the pneumonia and not eating much. At the moment, he is chewing normally (he does not pull faces while chewing, as he did when he had the overgrown molars), and his front teeth are ok (the upper incisor that he keeps losing has grown back at the moment).

So I really think that his problems can be related to a heart problem, which would also explain his abnormal breathing. However, I am not sure how the vet can diagnose it.
My vet is on holidays at the moment, but will be back next week, then I can discuss the treatment and medication with her.
 
I tried to phone Vedra from the CCT (she gave me a time when to phone her on her mobile), but so far, I could not get hold of her.
I will keep trying.

Today, Ben seems a little bit better. He has not put on any weight, but he seems a bit better today, judging from his general behaviour. He has wheeked again and he was on the balcony with the others all afternoon, and he ate a bit of his veggies.
Now I give him his morning medicine after breakfast, which seems to work out better. I had the impression that he loses his appetite after the first course of meds in the morning (or his stomach is full from all the liquids so he does not feel like eating), so now I give him the chance to eat first and then I give him all his meds.
Of course I am still syringe feeding him.
 
That's interesting. Which examinations needed to be done to find out about the heart murmur?
Does your piggy have to take the tablets permanently?
 
Skye's heart murmur and arrhythmia were detected by examination with stethoscope, although my vet has said that it isn't always as obvious, or certainly in other animals it isn't.

Yes, she is going to need to take the medication for the rest of her life. Skye's sister Poppet has started to show a few similar symptoms, but at the moment we are treating her for a URI, and her heart sounds good.

The improvement in Skye was literally overnight as soon as she started on the medication.
 
Shoot - I thought there was another examination how you can find out. My vet already used the stethscope several times and said Ben's heart sounds fine, so I hoped there would be another thing we could try.
Do these tablets have a lot of side effects? Or could I try them with Bennie even though a heart problem is not clearly diagnosed? inbreeding
 
If the heart sounds "faulty" then there is a problem.
However if the heart sounds good it does NOT mean that it is good and that there is not a problem.
 
yes, that's right - this is exactly the problem. I have the suspicion that his heart sounds ok (their heartbeats are so quick it is very difficult to hear a murmur anyway), but there can be something wrong nevertheless...
 
The point AP made is exactly my frustration at the vets I came across, this is what stopped any further examinations on Tuppy. I remain sure she had heart trouble - but because it sounded fine to two vets and to a rodentologist, it was never investigated or considered further. Even when her skin paled and she became more lethargic, they refused to examine her further because they couldn't hear a problem.

A "trial" of heart medication is sometimes the key to truly recognising that there is a problem there; as Debbie discovered with Skye, the difference when put on meds is notable in a fairly short time period, if there is a heart defect there. If the vet does choose to have a "look" at the heart, an xray is the usual next step. If the heart is enlarged it can show the extent of it, although not all heart problems do show up on xray. I believe the two main medications for heart problems are Benazepril (Fortekor) and Enalapril (Enacard).
 
A "static" x ray will not show how the heart is working, will it?
Two weeks ago I saw a pig, a two year old, who was reluctant to eat or move, o/e there were no apparent problems. His heart sounded normal ie speed, rhythmn, the "noise level" was good, a strong heartbeat. I told his owner that, whilst the heart sounded fine, she should not place too much reliance on the result. Three days later she 'phoned me to say he was not moving, was cold and his lips were blue, all classic symptoms of heart failure. He died a short while later.
 
this is a very sad story!

Well, nothing showed up on Ben's last xray, but he does take some herbal drops to strengthen his heart, and he also got the injections I mentioned when his breathing got worse.
However, these drops have not helped him.
 
I've been to the vets today and I discussed Ben's problem with her in detail.

I told her about Ben's up and downs, and that I do not know what to do and if I should continue the medication or not, and I also discussed other medication with her, e.g. the Benazepril which was mentioned for piggies with heart problems.
The vet said that Benazepril is not really good to give "just in case" because it is normally for humans and it is a very strong medicine. She said she had listened to his heartbeat, this sounded ok, and the xray that we have done did not show anything either, so he still might have problems with his heart (which affects his breath), but it is difficult to know for sure, and so she does not want him to take this strong medicine right now. He is already getting the herbal medicine to strengthen his heart (ever since he had the breathing problems and we thought it might be due to the heat), and I did not see any difference, so it remains a mystery.
Today, Ben seems quite well and active, but sometimes he seems rather lethargic, and this changes from one day to the other.
She said we should try another medicine, which strengthens his immune system, but I should continue all the stomach and colon medicine for now, until we do the next xray and then we will see if his stomach and colon are still full of gas.

If Ben is still feeling the same after the course of the new medicine, we might try the heart medicine as some kind of last resort. I understand it is always hard to find the right dosage; I have other medicine for Ben (the one against stomach problems, called MCP) which is for humans and the leaflets state that not even children under the age of 14 should take this medicine, but a little piggy which only weighs 800g has to take it simply because there is no adequate medicine for piggies! But we cannot do anything against this, it is often either human medicine or none at all, and I will try everything to help him get better. I will keep you updated on the little man.
 
Which herbal medicine?
" ...until we do the next xray and then we will see if his stomach and colon are still full of gas."

If his stomach and colon are still full of gas until the next xray he will have been dead for sometime!!
Either the vet didn't mean it that way or, if she did, I would get a second opinion, sooner than later.
 
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