Bertha--URI? Pneumonia? On Baytril, recovering at home

[JustLikeWasabi]

This might be a case of TL;DR. So the first section is the background, and the second section are the questions that I am seeking advice on. Thank you.

BACKGROUND
I brought my old girl piggy, Bertha, in to the Emergency animal hospital on Wednesday (July 28) night. I came home from work, and noticed that she was breathing hard, and making some disturbing sounds. There were some rattling/crackling/popping sounds coming from her. It reminded me of staticky sounds from headphones? Or coffee percolating. Difficult for me to describe. I called up her regular vet's place as they are also a pet hospital and open 24 hours, but they had no exotics vet on staff, so they referred me to the other animal hospital a bit farther away.

Thankfully, when I got there with Bertha, they weren't dealing with any other animal emergencies, so Bertha was looked at right away. The veterinarian ended up admitting her to the hospital and keeping her there for two more nights. She was put into 24-hour oxygen, and given Baytril antibiotics. Her appetite was diminished, so they syringe fed her...not a lot, as she still was eating some hay and pellets on her own. They gave her sub-cue fluids, and I got to take her home on Friday night--once they had stabilized her breathing and the crackling noises weren't there anymore. For home care, I was instructed to give her Baytril (0.4mg every 12 hours) for 14 days. I was also told to monitor her eating--if she wasn't eating her normal amount of hay and pellets, then I would need to supplement her with critical care. I also was instructed to bring her back to the hospital if I noticed labored breathing, diminished or no fecal output, or if the crackling/popping breathing sounds returned.

The vets did mention URI or possibly pneumonia. They chalked it up to Bertha's elder pig status--just like elderly people, immune systems in older piggies are more susceptible to infections, and the stress of losing her pal Latte probably contributed to her weakened state. Also, the fact that I introduced a new guinea pig (Momo) into the household, coupled with the fact that they don't like one another, didn't help matters much either.

So now, I have to hope my poor 5-year old girl Bertha pulls through. She's been through a lot, and I just want her to be able to live out the rest of her golden years without strife. Unfortunately, I'm not that lucky in anything. Bertha is having a heck of a time recovering. She's decided she hates Critical Care now. When I had to syringe feed Latte during her illness, Bertha would come around lapping up any CC that would spill. She would finish off Latte's uneaten portion off the plate and now that Bertha needs to eat it, she fights me every step of the way.

Also, the Baytril seems to be giving her soft poo. Not quite diarrhea, they still have the typical piggy poo shape--just the consistency is really mushy. So should I hold off on giving her vegetables until her poo firms up some, or the entire time she's on antibiotics? I'm thinking maybe feeding her the critical care is making her full so she doesn't want to eat hay...would that contribute to the soft poo consistency? She's ignoring her pellets...she wasn't a huge fan of the Oxbow Garden Select Pellets in the first place, but she'd at least eat them. She still eats the Oxbow Vitamin C wafer with gusto! She still makes her usual trips to the water bottle too.

As she's old, Bertha sleeps a lot more. She also seems to get distracted really easily. Like she will be nibbling some hay, and then decides she would much rather be chewing the cardboard roll or paper bag holding it. She will fully burrow herself in the pile of hay and fall asleep, after drowsily nibbling on a few strands. Seems like eating isn't a high priority for her. But she always wants vegetables--I don't give a whole lot, just 25g in the morning and 25g in the evening.

I've left messages with the vet and am waiting for them to call me back. But maybe you all could weigh in with your advice while I wait? Thank you for any help and suggestions!

SEEKING ADVICE ON...
1) Mushy poo--possibly from Baytril. Should I just withhold vegetables until the poos firm up? Or for the entire 14-day antibiotics course?
2) Is it normal for guinea pigs to just get turned off of Critical Care when they used to love it previously?
3) URI and/or pneumonia is contagious from what I understand. Momo is in a separate pen, from Bertha, but they are in the same room. How likely is it that Momo will catch this from Bertha? Will I just end up with a neverending cycle of them passing the illness back and forth to each other?
4) I just laundered all the fleece and microfiber bath mats that I use in the piggy areas before getting Bertha back from the animal hospital. They share the same space to have floor time out of their pens (just in shifts so they don't have to interact with each other). Would it be stressful for them to smell the other piggy's scent? Should they get separate spaces to free range? Are the fleece and mats things that will help spread the infection around?

I'm very anxious about this all. To lose Latte in July, and now having to deal with Bertha's health crisis is taking a toll on me. (And I was in the hospital for a week in January, so my health isn't the best either).

 

[My Piggies]

I'm sorry you're having to go through this. I can't offer any advice, but wish you and Bertha luck and hope that she pulls through .

 

[Wiebke]

This might be a case of TL;DR. So the first section is the background, and the second section are the questions that I am seeking advice on. Thank you.

BACKGROUND
I brought my old girl piggy, Bertha, in to the Emergency animal hospital on Wednesday (July 28) night. I came home from work, and noticed that she was breathing hard, and making some disturbing sounds. There were some rattling/crackling/popping sounds coming from her. It reminded me of staticky sounds from headphones? Or coffee percolating. Difficult for me to describe. I called up her regular vet's place as they are also a pet hospital and open 24 hours, but they had no exotics vet on staff, so they referred me to the other animal hospital a bit farther away.

Thankfully, when I got there with Bertha, they weren't dealing with any other animal emergencies, so Bertha was looked at right away. The veterinarian ended up admitting her to the hospital and keeping her there for two more nights. She was put into 24-hour oxygen, and given Baytril antibiotics. Her appetite was diminished, so they syringe fed her...not a lot, as she still was eating some hay and pellets on her own. They gave her sub-cue fluids, and I got to take her home on Friday night--once they had stabilized her breathing and the crackling noises weren't there anymore. For home care, I was instructed to give her Baytril (0.4mg every 12 hours) for 14 days. I was also told to monitor her eating--if she wasn't eating her normal amount of hay and pellets, then I would need to supplement her with critical care. I also was instructed to bring her back to the hospital if I noticed labored breathing, diminished or no fecal output, or if the crackling/popping breathing sounds returned.

The vets did mention URI or possibly pneumonia. They chalked it up to Bertha's elder pig status--just like elderly people, immune systems in older piggies are more susceptible to infections, and the stress of losing her pal Latte probably contributed to her weakened state. Also, the fact that I introduced a new guinea pig (Momo) into the household, coupled with the fact that they don't like one another, didn't help matters much either.

So now, I have to hope my poor 5-year old girl Bertha pulls through. She's been through a lot, and I just want her to be able to live out the rest of her golden years without strife. Unfortunately, I'm not that lucky in anything. Bertha is having a heck of a time recovering. She's decided she hates Critical Care now. When I had to syringe feed Latte during her illness, Bertha would come around lapping up any CC that would spill. She would finish off Latte's uneaten portion off the plate and now that Bertha needs to eat it, she fights me every step of the way.

Also, the Baytril seems to be giving her soft poo. Not quite diarrhea, they still have the typical piggy poo shape--just the consistency is really mushy. So should I hold off on giving her vegetables until her poo firms up some, or the entire time she's on antibiotics? I'm thinking maybe feeding her the critical care is making her full so she doesn't want to eat hay...would that contribute to the soft poo consistency? She's ignoring her pellets...she wasn't a huge fan of the Oxbow Garden Select Pellets in the first place, but she'd at least eat them. She still eats the Oxbow Vitamin C wafer with gusto! She still makes her usual trips to the water bottle too.

As she's old, Bertha sleeps a lot more. She also seems to get distracted really easily. Like she will be nibbling some hay, and then decides she would much rather be chewing the cardboard roll or paper bag holding it. She will fully burrow herself in the pile of hay and fall asleep, after drowsily nibbling on a few strands. Seems like eating isn't a high priority for her. But she always wants vegetables--I don't give a whole lot, just 25g in the morning and 25g in the evening.

I've left messages with the vet and am waiting for them to call me back. But maybe you all could weigh in with your advice while I wait? Thank you for any help and suggestions!

SEEKING ADVICE ON...
1) Mushy poo--possibly from Baytril. Should I just withhold vegetables until the poos firm up? Or for the entire 14-day antibiotics course?
2) Is it normal for guinea pigs to just get turned off of Critical Care when they used to love it previously?
3) URI and/or pneumonia is contagious from what I understand. Momo is in a separate pen, from Bertha, but they are in the same room. How likely is it that Momo will catch this from Bertha? Will I just end up with a neverending cycle of them passing the illness back and forth to each other?
4) I just laundered all the fleece and microfiber bath mats that I use in the piggy areas before getting Bertha back from the animal hospital. They share the same space to have floor time out of their pens (just in shifts so they don't have to interact with each other). Would it be stressful for them to smell the other piggy's scent? Should they get separate spaces to free range? Are the fleece and mats things that will help spread the infection around?

I'm very anxious about this all. To lose Latte in July, and now having to deal with Bertha's health crisis is taking a toll on me. (And I was in the hospital for a week in January, so my health isn't the best either).

Hi!
I am very sorry for your issues.

Baytril is well known for being rather rough on the digestive bacteria in the gut as well as the respiratory system. It can act as an appetite dampener or even killer. Softer poos are normal with baytril and nothing to worry about; they will normalise again after the end of the course; in worse cases, baytril can cause acute diarrhea.

Since the need to breathe comes before the need to drink and only thirdly the need to eat, respiratory illnesses are usually connected with loss of appetite; so taking this into account together with the effecti from the antibiotic, you are dealing with the classic double whammy on the gut for respiratory piggies.
Because they can really lose their appetite with baytril, feeding time can become wrestling time where every ml you can get into her counts. Aim for a minimum of 40 ml in 24 hours if syringe feeding is a total fight (aiming for at least 5 ml in each session) and 60 ml if you can 5-10 ml into her with every session - little but often round the clock does the trick.

You can add probiotics like bene bac to the syringe feed and you can also see whether mixing it with some pellets soaked in water will make the syringe feed more acceptable. You will in this case however have to cut off the tip of the syringe just before it widens to allow the rougher fibre from the pellets to pass but still hold the plunger in. I find that a mix can sometimes go down better - and in this situation you are going with what works best for your pig until you are through the worst of it.

If you have a companion piggy, then 'poo soup' (i.e. healthy live microbiome to re-stock the gut at least 2 hours after the antibiotic) is another measure that can help you get through the thick of it.

It will be very exhausting and can be dispiriting but it is also worth fighting for to come out at the other end with your piggy still there and knowing that you have done the best you could.

More information on support care:
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide
Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links
Understanding Prey Animal Instincts, Guinea Pig Whispering and Cuddling Tips (piggy whispering can help with getting things down both the stroking around the eye (love) and the ear fondling to remind her that you are in charge)


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[JustLikeWasabi]

Thank you for all of that information, Wiebke! It helps a lot.

I have some experience syringe feeding from my time with our Latte, and typically, I've been able to get 5ml-10ml in a session. What complicates matters is that I need to work as I'm the only source of income for my family, and my employers have that attitude of "It's just a guinea pig."

So I go home on my lunch break, try to get some food into Bertha, and then head back to work. Usually I get back later than I should due to lunch-time traffic, but it's far better to ask for forgiveness than permission. I often wish that Bertha would rediscover her love for Critical Care...and eat it on her own (I’ve been leaving a bit on a dish for her)

I have been giving her the BeneBac Plus gel. She gets a little bit about two hours before each antibiotics dose and a little before my bedtime.

I need to regroup and try to come up with a system that helps Bertha without burning myself out.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you for all of that information, Wiebke! It helps a lot.

I have some experience syringe feeding from my time with our Latte, and typically, I've been able to get 5ml-10ml in a session. What complicates matters is that I need to work as I'm the only source of income for my family, and my employers have that attitude of "It's just a guinea pig."

So I go home on my lunch break, try to get some food into Bertha, and then head back to work. Usually I get back later than I should due to lunch-time traffic, but it's far better to ask for forgiveness than permission. I often wish that Bertha would rediscover her love for Critical Care...and eat it on her own (I’ve been leaving a bit on a dish for her)

I have been giving her the BeneBac Plus gel. She gets a little bit about two hours before each antibiotics dose and a little before my bedtime.

I need to regroup and try to come up with a system that helps Bertha without burning myself out.

All the best!

Try to up the feeding sessions around the times you are at home so you can find a balance that works best for you. Keep in mind that we can always only do the best we can under the circumstances; we are not superhumans with an inflatable pocket universe for extra a time and space. You are doing the best you can and are not failing Bertha.

 

[JustLikeWasabi]

After dealing with exotics veterinarians more than I like in the past few weeks, I've come to the conclusion that there aren't any cavy-savvy veterinarians in Hawaii. There are several very nice veterinarians that will examine "exotics" but Hawaii is mostly a dog & cat state. I feel like many people where I live have guinea pigs but don't really get them medical care. I don't know if it's just not profitable...or if people just balk at paying so much for exotics veterinary care that costs more than the animal itself...it is very discouraging. As someone who cares deeply for guinea pigs, it just breaks my heart that these little guys just won't and can't get the care they need here. I wish that Hawaii would not have guinea pigs--these sweet little creatures deserve better.

Bertha's saga is ongoing. She finished her course of Baytril. Upon advice from forum members here, I'd been giving her Bene-bac probiotics while she was on her antibiotics. That seemed to help her with eating. She lost a little weight due to the Baytril messing with her appetite, but the weight loss stabilized and she was eating more after the Bene-bac was given. And the URI seemed to have cleared--and the clicky breathing sound and labored breathing seemed to have gone away.

But then about a week or so after she finished the Baytril, she got what seemed like bloat--puffed up, swollen abdomen, diminished poo output . So I took her back to the vet. They prescribed her Simethicone, and Metacam. The painkiller helped, and she continued to eat a normal amount (1-2 Tbsp oxbow cavy cuisine pellets, 25g fresh veggies, timothy hay), and the poo output went back to normal.

Most recently, (less than 3 days ago), I'd been noticing that she was once again breathing hard and I heard that weird breathing noise. She was back to not eating much. She nibbles at her hay, and is pickier about which pieces she wants to eat. She likes short pieces, and not the long strands as before. She still likes her fresh veggie salad, and her pellets, but she eats them more slowly and with great effort. It also seems like she's having difficulty picking up things...she drops pellets, and won't eat hay unless it is angled perfectly. I suspect a dental issue with the molars. Or perhaps a heart issue. So I brought her to her veterinarian yesterday, but because of COVID-19 protocols, I had to explain everything on the phone, and couldn't be in the exam room with Bertha. I like the veterinarian--she's one of the few in my state (Hawaii) that will actually examine guinea pigs, but I don't feel like she's a specialist in them. I mean, she knows which antibiotics are safe to give, at least, but beyond that....I feel like Bertha is not long for this world.

At yesterday's vet appointment--they did x-rays to see if maybe they can see an underlying cause. An enlarged heart...or pneumonia in the lungs, or elongated tooth roots, or a uterine cyst. She didn't have the expertise to interpret the x-rays, so she'd have to get an exotics radiologist to read the images for her, and then they'd call me back once they found out (in a day or two).

I'm losing hope. I feel like Bertha is slipping away...despite my wanting to do the best for her, I just cannot because of the lack of quality vet care for guinea pigs here. I just don't know what to do. And the future looks bleak for our other guinea pig Momo. I wanted to get her a cage mate, since she clearly shouldn't be a solitary pig at such a young age (less than a year old), but knowing that there isn't good vet care for guinea pigs, wouldn't it be irresponsible of me to get another? Should I just rehome her? My heart is breaking.