Bladder Stone - Weird Instructions By The Vet?

[Leeni]

My girl Tyllerö has again a bladder issue. I wrote about her problems earlier here: Blood Or Coloured Urine?

A few days ago I noticed that Tyllerö had lost some weight and being already underweight (used to be 1200g, now 975g) I got very worried of her. She seemed maybe a bit under the weather but not much. Next day her wee started to smell bad and today I finally got a her to wee in a plastic box (it's always a struggle with her..) and tested it and saw that there was a lot of blood in her urine according to the test. So I got her a vet appointment for today. My vet was not available so I had to settle for a place that has not been so cavy savvy. The vet seemed very nice and quite ok though and we x-rayed Tyllerö and the x-ray showed a stone that was in her urinary tract, very near to be coming out and some sludge in the bladder. However, the vet did not try to get it out as we did with my usual vet, she said that since the wee can get out, it is no problem. The urine sample that they got at the vet's didn't contain any blood which was a surprise because the one I made at home had a lot blood in it (I of course forgot to bring it with me to the vet's..). Can the amount of blood in urine vary so much that there would suddenly be none?

Tyllerö got some pain killers and no antibiotics for now. They said they want to culture (farm? sorry, I don't know the right word!) the sample until tomorrow and only then give antibiotics if it is necessary since there was no blood in the sample. I'm worried because I thought antibiotics should always be given if the piggy is diagnosed with bladder stones. Isn't there always an inflammation in the bladder if a stone is there? Also where would the bad smell in the wee come from if there was no inflammation.. Do you think that I should demand for antibiotics regardless when I call them tomorrow?

The vet also said that I shouldn't feed her any grass for a little while, only dry hay and pellets. I asked her why but she only said "just to be sure". I have mixed feelings about this because Tyllerö needs fluids to flush her bladder and the greens also keep her active and happy. I will give her extra water of course but why would it be bad to give her also grass etc.?

Also, I am quite worried that the stone will get stuck in the urinary tract. I will keep a close eye on Tyllerö and bring her to er if necessary but thinking about these weird things in the vet I feel quite unsure of what I should do.

 

[Wiebke]

My girl Tyllerö has again a bladder issue. I wrote about her problems earlier here: Blood Or Coloured Urine?

A few days ago I noticed that Tyllerö had lost some weight and being already underweight (used to be 1200g, now 975g) I got very worried of her. She seemed maybe a bit under the weather but not much. Next day her wee started to smell bad and today I finally got a her to wee in a plastic box (it's always a struggle with her..) and tested it and saw that there was a lot of blood in her urine according to the test. So I got her a vet appointment for today. My vet was not available so I had to settle for a place that has not been so cavy savvy. The vet seemed very nice and quite ok though and we x-rayed Tyllerö and the x-ray showed a stone that was in her urinary tract, very near to be coming out and some sludge in the bladder. However, the vet did not try to get it out as we did with my usual vet, she said that since the wee can get out, it is no problem. The urine sample that they got at the vet's didn't contain any blood which was a surprise because the one I made at home had a lot blood in it (I of course forgot to bring it with me to the vet's..). Can the amount of blood in urine vary so much that there would suddenly be none?

Tyllerö got some pain killers and no antibiotics for now. They said they want to culture (farm? sorry, I don't know the right word!) the sample until tomorrow and only then give antibiotics if it is necessary since there was no blood in the sample. I'm worried because I thought antibiotics should always be given if the piggy is diagnosed with bladder stones. Isn't there always an inflammation in the bladder if a stone is there? Also where would the bad smell in the wee come from if there was no inflammation.. Do you think that I should demand for antibiotics regardless when I call them tomorrow?

The vet also said that I shouldn't feed her any grass for a little while, only dry hay and pellets. I asked her why but she only said "just to be sure". I have mixed feelings about this because Tyllerö needs fluids to flush her bladder and the greens also keep her active and happy. I will give her extra water of course but why would it be bad to give her also grass etc.?

Also, I am quite worried that the stone will get stuck in the urinary tract. I will keep a close eye on Tyllerö and bring her to er if necessary but thinking about these weird things in the vet I feel quite unsure of what I should do.

The strong smell of the pee is indicative of a cystitis or urine infection; you should hopefully get the result tomorrow and can then start treating with an antibiotic.

I hope that your piggy-savvy vet is coming back soon, so they can hopefully manipulate out the urethral stone without an operation.

 

[rome_italy]

Being a mum of a daughter who during childhood had serious troubles in her urinary system, I want to tell you something which is valid for humans and for pigs. The blood can appear and disappear also in the same day. A stone can cause blood even when there is no infection and in that case antibiotics is not useful. The antibiotic must be specific for that bacteria which is causing the infection and it is necessary to have a colture of the infected wee. In us humans nephrologists ask you to collect your urine BEFORE the antibiotics; then, if the situation is dangerous and the infection is quite sure, they give you a generic antibiotic until the results of the colture are ready; then they might change the antibiotic.
I don't know if it is right to keep the stone there...
About the advice "no fresh food" it sounds to me as a nosense... my first pig (who ate a lot of "good" pellets low in calcium) died for kidney troubles and now the vet says that eating pellets and dry food is the main cause of a lot of kidneys troubles in piggies and in cats. Also my daughter had to eat loads of vegs and fruits. That was most important than drinking water, her surgeon said.
Painkillers are necessary because if the stone moves down it is really painful.
I hope you can have a talk with your usual vet...
a last thing: a smelling wee is not a good sign...

 

[Leeni]

The strong smell of the pee is indicative of a cystitis or urine infection; you should hopefully get the result tomorrow and can then start treating with an antibiotic.

I hope that your piggy-savvy vet is coming back soon, so they can hopefully manipulate out the urethral stone without an operation.

Being a mum of a daughter who during childhood had serious troubles in her urinary system, I want to tell you something which is valid for humans and for pigs. The blood can appear and disappear also in the same day. A stone can cause blood even when there is no infection and in that case antibiotics is not useful. The antibiotic must be specific for that bacteria which is causing the infection and it is necessary to have a colture of the infected wee. In us humans nephrologists ask you to collect your urine BEFORE the antibiotics; then, if the situation is dangerous and the infection is quite sure, they give you a generic antibiotic until the results of the colture are ready; then they might change the antibiotic.
I don't know if it is right to keep the stone there...
About the advice "no fresh food" it sounds to me as a nosense... my first pig (who ate a lot of "good" pellets low in calcium) died for kidney troubles and now the vet says that eating pellets and dry food is the main cause of a lot of kidneys troubles in piggies and in cats. Also my daughter had to eat loads of vegs and fruits. That was most important than drinking water, her surgeon said.
Painkillers are necessary because if the stone moves down it is really painful.
I hope you can have a talk with your usual vet...
a last thing: a smelling wee is not a good sign...

Thank you both, @Wiebke and @rome_italy !

I phoned the vet today and strangely enough there was no sign of infection in the sample yet. But the culture is ready in 24 hours, and this was only 12 hours in so they were of course unwilling to tell me the real results before Monday (the clinic is closed for Sunday before the culture is ready and I didn't know this yesterday when they said they would culture it). I wasn't willing to wait that long because it might be too long for Tyllerö in the worst case scenario so I convinced them to prescribe the antibiotics anyway but I am not sure if I should give them to Tyllerö or not. What would you do? I just never have heard of a piggy with a bladder stone without antibiotic treatment, that's why I'm so hesitant. Is it very common?

The sample was so small, only a few drops. Is it possible that the amount was not large enough for culturing? Or can it be true that the bladder/tract is not infected at all though there's the stone on the way and sludge in the bladder? And there was the smell too and a lot of blood earlier.

It sounded to me like they were just going to wait and see if anything grows in the sample but were not going to inspect the sample further, and then just prescribe the usual UTI antibiotics if something grows there, so I think this prescription is as good as it gets anyway, if I decide to give her ab.

Also, the stone was not dense, it looked like a "ghost" in the x-ray and was so near to the end of the urinary tract so it is possible that it has already come out. It is also possible that the stone is quite sludgy as it was last time when my vet took it out, that stone dissolved into sludge in the process. At least Tyllerö wees large wees (after every session of making her drink ... to my lap) and there is no sign of pain when she wees. And her weight has gone up a few grams as well! So maybe the pain meds are enough to control the irritation that sludge and stone cause?

 

[rome_italy]

In your shoes I would wait till Monday (just two days...) because the colture will show the exact antibiotic which kill THAT bacteria, if there are any of course. Antibiotics kill everything and strict herbivores need more than us all the good bacteria balance in their gut; they are extremely sensitive. It would be better to not abuse of drugs which can ruin this balance, if not necessary. The stone should dissolve or go out, I don't know if there are special treatment for that.
Some years ago I had a bad infection, I had to take antibiotics which made a disaster into my belly and the infection came back again. Blood and smell.. and the analysis came out clear! then a dear finnish penpal of mine, a nurse, suggested me to drink pure cranberry juice. That was the end of all my troubles, which used to come back when I stopped to drink cranberry!
My piggies (Calliope and Calipso) don't drink any water, they follow a diet rich of fresh grass (and hay; no pellets and no fruit) and I am giving them daily a teaspoon of cranberry diluited with lwater (for newborns, extremely low in minerals) using a syringe. Since then Calliope's wee which was not that good before my adoption (she came home with a paper of the vet which said she is prone to bladder sludge and I need to pay attention) has been absolutely perfect and the vet is satisfied. Of course I cannot say what will happen in the future, but I go on, having read interesting researches about the use of cranberry even as preventive treatment. I will always be grateful to my finnish friend! It does not work on stone and sludge of course (Calliope has changed her diet actually) but I see enormous differences in both piggies.
Be sure that Tyllero is drinking a water with a very low fixed residue: it is a number you can read on the label... for example, my water has a residue of 22mg/liter. Mineral waters have more than 1000 sometimes (water in Rome is an hard water, too, not good for people prone to having stones).
There are also some waters which help the stone to dissolve... I don't know anything more, but I know that they exist.
A last thing: some drops of wee can be enough for a colture. Immagine my difficulty with a little daughter, she needed to do the colture once a week... It is common that the first test shows an infection only because there were bacteria on your hands, on your piggie's skin (and hair), on the box... The colture then says always the truth and the lab itself tests the right antibiotic.
If I were you, I would take the pig on my lap and I would make him drink a lot during the day. And as a last advice: when this trouble will be solved, change his diet: there is something wrong for sure... and something right you can do for preventing new episodes

 

[Leeni]

In your shoes I would wait till Monday (just two days...) because the colture will show the exact antibiotic which kill THAT bacteria, if there are any of course. Antibiotics kill everything and strict herbivores need more than us all the good bacteria balance in their gut; they are extremely sensitive. It would be better to not abuse of drugs which can ruin this balance, if not necessary. The stone should dissolve or go out, I don't know if there are special treatment for that.
Some years ago I had a bad infection, I had to take antibiotics which made a disaster into my belly and the infection came back again. Blood and smell.. and the analysis came out clear! then a dear finnish penpal of mine, a nurse, suggested me to drink pure cranberry juice. That was the end of all my troubles, which used to come back when I stopped to drink cranberry!
My piggies (Calliope and Calipso) don't drink any water, they follow a diet rich of fresh grass (and hay; no pellets and no fruit) and I am giving them daily a teaspoon of cranberry diluited with lwater (for newborns, extremely low in minerals) using a syringe. Since then Calliope's wee which was not that good before my adoption (she came home with a paper of the vet which said she is prone to bladder sludge and I need to pay attention) has been absolutely perfect and the vet is satisfied. Of course I cannot say what will happen in the future, but I go on, having read interesting researches about the use of cranberry even as preventive treatment. I will always be grateful to my finnish friend! It does not work on stone and sludge of course (Calliope has changed her diet actually) but I see enormous differences in both piggies.
Be sure that Tyllero is drinking a water with a very low fixed residue: it is a number you can read on the label... for example, my water has a residue of 22mg/liter. Mineral waters have more than 1000 sometimes (water in Rome is an hard water, too, not good for people prone to having stones).
There are also some waters which help the stone to dissolve... I don't know anything more, but I know that they exist.
A last thing: some drops of wee can be enough for a colture. Immagine my difficulty with a little daughter, she needed to do the colture once a week... It is common that the first test shows an infection only because there were bacteria on your hands, on your piggie's skin (and hair), on the box... The colture then says always the truth and the lab itself tests the right antibiotic.
If I were you, I would take the pig on my lap and I would make him drink a lot during the day. And as a last advice: when this trouble will be solved, change his diet: there is something wrong for sure... and something right you can do for preventing new episodes

Thank you for the opinion!
However, I got to talk to Tyllerö's usual vet on the phone although she wasn't working today and she said that I should begin the antibiotic treatment today. She said that the stone will have caused the infection anyway and won't go away without treatment and if the infection would go up from the bladder (kidneys etc.) Monday could be too late to start the treatment. With these little animals even two days can make the difference of life or death. As you may know, people have this same danger with untreated UTI. I'm very glad I got her opinion on the matter, and I feel so relieved that I got a reccommendation from her. I know that antibiotics are not generally good for anyone but it is better than the possible alternative of the inflammation spreading. Ditrim Duplo is a good antibiotic for UTI, and of course I will call the clinic on Monday about the culture. But as you also said, the urine example can be contaminated when gathered, this one was collected from the vet scale so it wasn't a pure sample to begin with. It also stood there a while before the vet got a syringe to collect it.

We in Finland use the cranberry juice with very good success with chronical UTI in humans, but I'm personally a bit hesitant with treating piggies the same way because their body is so different from ours. Cranberry affects the urine PH, which is totally different with humans and guinepigs, and there is not yet any scientific proof that it makes things better. I have been using unsweetened cranberry juice with Tyllerö during her treatment for my vet's reccommendation but stopped after that.

I have taken a close look at Tyllerö's diet after November after her previous issues but it seems that she is very prone to have bladder stones. Sometimes diet can't change everything, unfortunately. There are six pigs in the herd and no one else has had any UTI in years even before the cahnge of diet. I will try to do more, but it is very difficult without firm scientific proof, there are so many opinions around the matter to follow. Luckily Tyllerö's stones have been easy enough to remove or have come out themselves.

 

[DM030819]

Thank you for the opinion!
Ditrim Duplo is a good antibiotic for UTI,

A quick Google confirms that's what we call Bactrim and Septrin, so it's definitely a good one for URI. I hope it makes her feel better soon, and the piggy vet can get the stone out for you when she returns to work

Thank you for the opinion!
We in Finland use the cranberry juice with very good success with chronical UTI in humans, but I'm personally a bit hesitant with treating piggies the same way because their body is so different from ours. Cranberry affects the urine PH, which is totally different with humans and guinepigs, and there is not yet any scientific proof that it makes things better. I have been using unsweetened cranberry juice with Tyllerö during her treatment for my vet's reccommendation but stopped after that.

My vet agrees with this, and so I don't use it either. It might work in humans, or at least help us, but pig's urine is too different to assume it will help them too.

 

[rome_italy]

well, the important thing is that the urine colture will be made with the untreated urines, because also one day of antibiotics alters the result...
If the urine is contaminated, normally doctors recognise the bacteria coming from the outside and from the hands because that level of bacteria do not reach a certain number. The fact that the urine stood there for a while does not change the result of the colture (but it can change the PH and other stuff). There are a lot of researches online about effects of cranberry in guinea pigs, it is nothing about PH... it simply creates difficulty to bacteria when they try to stick on the bladder tissue... Anyway it isn't a remedy for preventing deposit of calcium. Genetics count a lot, too; but having some weak gene means that we are more sensitive to the ambient. And considering that there isn't a cure for changing our genes, we can do a lot for changing the ambient. Maybe it will not work, but at least we can give it a try...
About different opinions, if possible, you should always go to the doctors/surgeons/vets well informed, with your pack of researches in hand (on in mind); you should know more than them because they might be even less informed than you in some subjects... This is my own experience (with pets, children, myself, my family...). Moreover, something can be good even before the science can prove it (and before somebody decides to invest money in that specific research...). The only safe thing to do is avoiding what is suspicious or dangerous and when it is demonstrated it is a mistake.
Let's hope Tyllero's stone will go out by itself!
hugs!