Bonded boars suddenly fighting

[Piggiewinkles]

Hi,

I'm getting concerned about 2 of my boars who live together in a C&C cage.
Monty is 2 years 6 months old and Stanley is 2 years 3 months. I bonded them over 2 years ago (after we lost Monty's brother at only 4 months old and I wanted company for him). Bonding them went fine, I followed all the guidelines (introduced them on neutral ground, put down veg and hay for them to share, left them to it to sort out their dominance, had 2 of everything in the cage etc). Monty has always been the dominant male but never caused Stanley any problems and they got along fine....until about 2 weeks ago. Stanley suddenly started rubbing Monty up the wrong way, he's constantly chattering his teeth at Monty, trying to mount him, they've been nosing each other and yawning a lot. Stanley is always the instigator and hunches his back and the hairs stand up on end. Whenever Stanley noses at Monty he backs away. Whenever i'm home I let them run around downstairs so that they've got as much space as possible. When Monty runs into the other room (presumably to get some peace away from Stanley), stanley follows him and starts again. Stanley isn't stopping Monty eating or drinking but Monty has definitely gone into his shell. He used to squeak and bite at the cage when one of my other 2 piggies was let out (I had to cable tie the C&C cage together because he'd ram it so hard sometimes the connectors would come off!), however now he only really squeaks when he hears the rustle of a carrier bag as he knows it's vegetable time.
I've had a read of the signs of dominant/aggressive behaviour and Stanley is definitely showing these although at present it hasn't led to a full on fight, but i'm worried it could. I'm trying to leave them to get on with it as much as possible so that they can hopefully sort out their differences by themselves, but if it carries on should I separate them? Could it be the change in the season causing Stanley to change his behaviour? I read Spring can set off their hormones, if so how long does this usually last? I'm trying to avoid having to separate them as I know once you do this it can be hard to put them together again, however I really feel for Monty as he's not being given a break and the last thing i'd want is for them to injure each other.
Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Toffeewoffee]

How big is the cage/C&C that they are in? Do they have 2 of everything, water bottles, houses, cosies, tunnels, food bowls etc?

 

[Piggiewinkles]

Their C&C cage is 4 by 2, and yes they have 2 of everything. They spend half their time in there and half the time let out to run around downstairs, so I don't think space is an issue. They've got on fine for the 2 years they've been together, it's only the last 2 weeks Stanley's behaviour has changed.

 

[Toffeewoffee]

They could be going through their hormonal stage, but i am not up on boars to can't say at what point they reach their hormonal stage but think its younger. I would recommend extending the C&C to a min of 2 x 5 preferably bigger though. But dont separate until blood has drawn then separate immediately, if you need to intervene use a towel.

what may seem like serious chasing etc to us is usually normal for piggies so dont worry. Hopefully someone with boar experience will be along soon to help out x

 

[Piggiewinkles]

Yes from what i'd read my boys are way past the teen hormonal stage. They're pretty much middle aged. If I need to extend I could to 4 x 3, although i'm not sure if the space is affecting Stanley's change in behaviour.
Prior to the last couple of weeks they would chase each other and nose at bit, but Stanley is showing the signs of aggressive behaviour I read in the sticky. I'm trying to leave them to it but I guess i'm after on advice on how long I should let this go on if they don't resolve it because Monty is being given a really hard time, it doesn't seem a nice environment for either of them. Hopefully someone may be able to give advice or share a similar circumstance of older boars being aggressive.

 

[Piggiewinkles]

Now i'm home from work i've had a bit more time to read through other threads and advice on the forum. I'm going to bathe them together tomorrow and clean/disinfect their cage and also put down fresh bedding, and rearrange the hay trays, hidey holes etc. Really hope this will help.

 

[MandFpiggies]

You said you had other piggies, are they female by any chance? that could be affecting your boys behavior, with girls within smelling distance, spring could be in the air, so to speak, enough to get even the middle aged boys going @) I'm no expert, so its just a thought!

 

[Jemima_p]

Funnily enough two of my boys are having the same problem. Well, one of them is the problem, the other is having the problem with him!

I'm hanging in there the same as you hoping they'll sort it out, but when they stand teeth chattering at each other for minutes at a time, that isnt normal. Two thoughts I had that have stirred things up - one is that I've had mites in one of the others so they've all had spot-on even though there werent any other signs (strange, I know), and the other is to clean their grease glands. It always seems to me that the number one cause of aggro (after lack of space which isnt a problem in your case) is the grease glands giving off too many messages.

You can just do the grease glands really quickly if you dont want to do a full bath. As one of mine's long haired, I think he's ready for a bath as well, so I'll do them both. Fingers crossed it calms them down again.

 

[Piggiewinkles]

You said you had other piggies, are they female by any chance? that could be affecting your boys behavior, with girls within smelling distance, spring could be in the air, so to speak, enough to get even the middle aged boys going @) I'm no expert, so its just a thought!

My other 2 are boys as well. Ernie's cage is next to theirs though so i'm going to bathe him too just in case. I don't think my boys seem to know the difference between male and female, they're always randy! x)

 

[Piggiewinkles]

Funnily enough two of my boys are having the same problem. Well, one of them is the problem, the other is having the problem with him!

I'm hanging in there the same as you hoping they'll sort it out, but when they stand teeth chattering at each other for minutes at a time, that isnt normal. Two thoughts I had that have stirred things up - one is that I've had mites in one of the others so they've all had spot-on even though there werent any other signs (strange, I know), and the other is to clean their grease glands. It always seems to me that the number one cause of aggro (after lack of space which isnt a problem in your case) is the grease glands giving off too many messages.

You can just do the grease glands really quickly if you dont want to do a full bath. As one of mine's long haired, I think he's ready for a bath as well, so I'll do them both. Fingers crossed it calms them down again.

The teeth chattering is pretty constant. I'm holding back from separating them as I know it's best to leave them to it unless blood is drawn, but I don't want it to get to the stage where it gets so heated that happens. Bath time tomorrow it is!
Out of interest how old are your two and how long have they been together? A lot of the advice i've read is for young boars during their hormonal teenage years but mine are both over 2 years old and were introduced at only a few months of age. Maybe it is the change in season affecting them and fingers crossed things will settle down soon as it's hard to watch.

 

[Jemima_p]

Out of interest how old are your two and how long have they been together? A lot of the advice i've read is for young boars during their hormonal teenage years but mine are both over 2 years old and were introduced at only a few months of age. Maybe it is the change in season affecting them and fingers crossed things will settle down soon as it's hard to watch.

Hector (the aggressor) is about 2 years (His official birthday is first May) and Humphrey is 3 and a bit. He is normally completely laid back, a sheltie with the typical sheltie "yeah, man", attitude.

They have a very sad history, and I've had them eighteen months now. Hector has gone from being virtually unmanageable to quite polite, but has turned again in the last ten days. I reckon he was only 3 months or so when he was abandoned, along with Humphrey, in a house and found a month later when the new tenants moved in. The rescue did wonders to get them from their first starved situation to fosterable, and then the foster turned into an adoption pretty soon after I got them home.

I've tried a couple of things recently hoping it would help Hector's warped mind to relax even more, but I think a bath and a return to the previous routine is the best thing for him. He has wonderful five minutes... but terrible quarters of an hour!

 

[Piggiewinkles]

Oh bless them both, how anyone can abandon them I don't know, but they're lucky they now have a loving home. In a way it's nice to know i'm not the only one in this position with older boars now having trouble getting along, although I wish they move past this stage and get on again. Monty was so mischievous before Stanley decided he wanted to be the more dominant, but in a nice way, always squeaking, but now he's so quiet and backs off. I've just given them their veg for the day and a top up of hay and they're quite happy munching away together without any problems, but I know once they finish the teeth chattering will begin again. I hope Hector and Humphrey manage to move past this stage and can be happy again. Good luck

 

[Suzygpr]

This time of year sees a surge in the naughty boar behaviour, Spring is here and the sap is rising.

When I clean out the more touchy boars I often replace a little of their old bedding in the clean cage - so they don't have to go through the scent marking and 'taking possession' phase which can trigger a dominance issue. Changes in their environment can trigger problems, though it's usually short term. Moving their cage, changing their hay/bedding, even visitors to the house - there doesn't seem to be an end to the things piggies can react to and use as a reason to fall out.

Another possible cause is that the dominant boar's testosterone level is falling and the other boar is seeing it as a chance to become the boss, so challenging for the position. Though normally, between good friends, this is a subtle, not aggressive move. Very occasionally they fall out completely when this happens as the boss pig won't give his crown without a fight.

Suzy x

 

[Piggiewinkles]

Thanks Suzy. Tonight I was going to give them both a bath, paying attention to cleaning Stanley's sweat gland and also clean out their cage (disinfecting it, cleaning their pigloos, put clean bedding down, rearrange everything) in the hope all odours will be gone. However as you've said you replace a little of their old bedding in the clean cage so they don't have to go through the scent marking would you recommend this? Monty isn't really fighting back but Stanley isn't giving up either. If it is a case of Spring arriving, do you know how long this behaviour normally lasts for? It's been about 2 weeks so far x

 

[Suzygpr]

Have you tried the teddy trick yet? I would give that a go, and replace a bit of their bedding this cleaning out time, I tend to remove hideys and just give a couple of tunnels, open sided platforms, a large covered area as the bedroom (drape a towel/fleece over one end of the cage). It seems losing sight of each other in individual hideys can trigger a problem when they come face to face again. Once their bickering has stopped you can add the hideys again but I usually wait a couple of weeks.

If this doesn't work they go down the bathing route - each pairing is different and it's a bit trial and error finding what works for them.

Have a nosey though the boar dating thread - it's a sticky in Rescue and Rehoming. It may help.

Suzy x

 

[lauraboara]

I do hope your boys settle down. I have 8 boys (4 pairs) and 5 of the 8 are teenagers and OMG am I fed up with spring hormones. There is not a moment when 1 of them isnt rumbling and chasing.
As learnt from Suzy, 'Honey the Humping Teddy' is being very valuable to Tea Cake and Sudoku - they are quite evenly matched in status I think so they need a submissive teddy in there too! Also, the usual distraction things like giant pile of hay or hay stuffed in a loo roll can help a bit but usually just delays the chasing! Hope it gets better and summer comes soon.
PS i only give the boys tunnel style hideys so they can't be boxed in

 

[Piggiewinkles]

Thanks Suzy, i've read through the sticky and I hope my boys manage to sort out the dominance issue. I'll pop out later to buy a suitable teddy for Stanley to become aquainted with, and i'll take your advice and swap the hideys for a covered area. Should I just cover one end of the C&C cage, or have an area either end so they've both got a separate covered area if need be? Also with regards to having 2 of everything, at present they have 2 hideys, a cosie and tunnel, 2 bowls, 2 water bottles and 1 big hay tray. Apart from changing the hideys to a covered area, would you recommend I change anything else? Also if they're still bickering after making these changes should I divide the cage (but so they can still see each other) to give them some time out? If so how long should I leave them like that for before trying again?
Really appreciate your help x

 

[Suzygpr]

If you can make the covered area nice and big, I don't normally have two areas but for your boys it might help - play it by ear and if they still fuss with just one end covered do the other end too.

I usually just have a bile pile of hay in the middle rather than keep it to one small area so they can munch at the same time without having to be too close to each other if they choose. I scatter veg chopped up very small through it too.

The timeout by dividing the cage is a last resort - it can work but often causes more friction when reintroduced. Again you have to adapt to the boys on this - I've done 20 mins timeouts, 24 hrs, 2 weeks - it's always different for each pair. rolleyes Sometimes I've had them in different cages altogether for a bit and waited until they squeaked for each other, it worked but I didn't expect it to.

Suzy x

 

[Piggiewinkles]

Thought i'd give an update on what's happened this evening....
When I got home from work I was preparing everything to disinfect the coroplast and put clean bedding down and re-arrange the cage, and unfortunately stanley was continuing with the teeth chattering and aggressive behaviour. Then suddenly I heard a big comotion and stanley had pounced on monty. I managed to separate them but stanley had a big chunk of monty's fur in his mouth. I quickly took monty out of the cage and let him run on the floor. He was petrified by though and didn't move for ages. I checked them both over and there were no injuries. Monty perked up and was running around squeaking after a while. It was the happiest i've seen/heard him in the last couple of weeks. I put stanley in the carry box while I cleaned the cage. I put the clean bedding down and put the teddy in the cage with cleaned out bowls and a couple of other toys, along with a hay tray in the middle plus 2 water bottles. I then bathed them both and left them on the bathroom floor with some veg and hay. They seemed ok and weren't bothering each other. I've now put them in the cage and they've been alright for the last hour or so. Monty has gone quiet again though and they're not getting too close to each other. I did just hear stanley chatter his teeth though. Not constant like before but a chatter nonetheless :-/
So i'm unsure what to do tonight. Should I leave them to it (i'll be worrying and won't be able to sleep!) or do I put the mesh divide in the cage to split it in two, then they can still see and smell each other but there's no danger of them fighting or winding each other up. If I did this what impact would it have on trying to get them to bond again?

 

[Piggiewinkles]

I decided to leave them to it last night, but unfortunately when I checked on them this morning they were sitting at opposite ends of the C&C cage giving each other a wide berth. This wasn't a problem though, but about 20 mins later the constant teeth chattering started again and they were both yawning to show their teeth at one another. Stanley was trying to back Monty into the corner and Stanley was close to pouncing. Monty ran off but Stanley continued to chase him, chattering loudly and hunching his back. At this point I needed to leave to go to work and I didn't want to risk them fighting again whilst I was away, so I decided it would be best for their own safety to divide the cage with mesh grids. They can still see and smell each other but there's no risk of them fighting. I'm gutted I had to do this as I was hoping they would manage to get past their rift and live peacefully together again.
Can anyone give me advice on what to do from here? Is it possible for them to live separately with the mesh divide but still have floor time together? Or will this need to remain separate too? Should I try opening up the cage again in a couple of days time or do you think it's gone past any reconcilliation now?
Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks x

 

[hazeyg]

I just want to say I know how soul destroying it is when boys fall out as we so desperatly want them to have company and be happy piggies.

As for te advice I will leave that to Suzy but I would say youve done the right thing seperating them.

If it comes to the owrst I though you might like to know that my Theo and ALvin lived alongside each other for two years with a cage divide. They had alove hate releationship. Since Alvin died Theo has never been the same piggie, he's happy but he's never been as wheeking since. Its true what they say that the bond is stronger than we realise.

In their seperated cages they lay side by side every evening, they spoke to each other, squeeked together and always were together in what they were doing. They even begged together. See picture.

But as soon as they were out the hackles went up and teeth chattering followed immediatly there was never any doubt they would never live together. I bathed them and tried all sorts and yeah terrified in a bath they stuck togteher but as soon as the water was gone they fought again.

The moral of the story some boys will live very VERY happily side by side and just wont tolerate a male. And if after everything this is your boys fate- I can assure you they will be OK.

 

[Suzygpr]

As I've said before - each pairing is different and what can work for one pair won't work for another, you keep trying all the different ways of trying to get them together until you've exhausted the options - and if none work you deal with making them as happy as possible living side by side. Even then you can try again when you feel they are ready.

Now that you've seen the boys in action you know their body language, so if it starts to go wrong you can intervene before they actually fight - there's little point in them getting injured when you can see it's not working.

Suzy x

 

[Piggiewinkles]

Thanks Suzy and Hazeyg.

Suzy you're right about seeing their body language, and I know I did the right thing by intervening and splitting up the cage today. I'll see how they behave over the next few days, both with each other side by side in the cage, and also when one is out for floor time. They were never cuddly with each other, sometimes they'd clean each others ears and stanley would follow monty during floor time but they didn't snuggle up together, so in some ways things won't be too different now the divide is in. If I think it might be worth another shot at bringing them together at some point then i'll give it a go, but for now i'll let them have their own space, I think it will reduce my stress levels as well as theirs! lol.
Really appreciate the advice you've given me Suzy, and thank you hazeyg as your story about theo and alvin has made me feel less upset about changing monty and stanley's living arrangements
One last question....their C&C cage was 4x2 before the split, so now it is 2x2 grids each. Is this big enough or will I need to extend? x

 

[hazeyg]

Thanks Suzy and Hazeyg.

Suzy you're right about seeing their body language, and I know I did the right thing by intervening and splitting up the cage today. I'll see how they behave over the next few days, both with each other side by side in the cage, and also when one is out for floor time. They were never cuddly with each other, sometimes they'd clean each others ears and stanley would follow monty during floor time but they didn't snuggle up together, so in some ways things won't be too different now the divide is in. If I think it might be worth another shot at bringing them together at some point then i'll give it a go, but for now i'll let them have their own space, I think it will reduce my stress levels as well as theirs! lol.
Really appreciate the advice you've given me Suzy, and thank you hazeyg as your story about theo and alvin has made me feel less upset about changing monty and stanley's living arrangements
One last question....their C&C cage was 4x2 before the split, so now it is 2x2 grids each. Is this big enough or will I need to extend? x

you'll need to extend I'm afraid. Will need to be a 6x2. Although my boys lived in a 5x2 split for a few month until i got the cash for the extension quite happily. Short term it will do no harm.
And your very welcome, boys will be boys, they dont realise come much stress they cause their mummies.

 

[Piggiewinkles]

One of my other boys cages (Ernie) is 3x2 so i'll make Monty and Stanley's the same. It's going to look like one massive grid of 6x3 behind the sofa! I did wonder if it could be Ernie setting off Stanley's change in behaviour, but I bathed him as well yesterday and changed his bedding etc. Plus Ernie keeps to himself and doesn't really bother with the others, he prefers to be in his cage in his cosy rather than let out to run free downstairs. He is over 4 years old now so maybe he prefers peace and quiet!
My partner helped me bath the piggies last night but when I told him I had to separate them this morning he said it's not like it makes any difference to us. Men! They just don't seem to realise how close we get to our furry friends!