Bonding Advice Needed

Scooby& Shaggy

Scooby& Shaggy

Junior Guinea Pig
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I am going to re-introduce my two boars who live side by side, I plan on doing this on Friday. I have the day off, the kids are at their mums so the house will be quiet. I have read lots of bonding information on this forum as well as else where. However I do have some questions which would be greatly appreciated.
  • When re-introducing, should I let the boays have the full run of a floor area i.e the hall or is it better for them to be in a smaller place.
  • I also read on another site i should do it on the couch first then move them to a pen, this doesn't sound correct?
  • Another site said once they have been in the pen together to give them a buddy bath. (I have given buddy baths before but found it was a stop gap not a long term solution). The site then went on to say the scary bath and drying time should help them bond, but to me that seems overtly cruel to frighten your piggies into being freinds.
  • My Boys live side by side, I have a picture of my setup in another thread, and they are at the stage now of lying next to each other (divider in the way). Sometimes passing food to each other. But every now and again they do have a little chudder at each other.
I really want them both to get along so they can benifit from a massive cage and not a decent sized half cage each. However failing the bonding I am considering one of the following options:
  • Taking them both to be neutered and getting them a wife each from a rescue (down side to this I think it will set my other two bonded boars off who live in the 2nd tier of my guinea pig castle.
  • Taking them to a rescue and bonding them with other boars, however that means I would have 6 boars, and they would have to live siude by side.
  • Finally do nothing, and leave them seperated but I feel this is unfair on them as they don't get to play like my two bonded boars do
Looking forward to response
Joe
 
Scooby& Shaggy said:
I am going to re-introduce my two boars who live side by side, I plan on doing this on Friday. I have the day off, the kids are at their mums so the house will be quiet. I have read lots of bonding information on this forum as well as else where. However I do have some questions which would be greatly appreciated.
  • When re-introducing, should I let the boays have the full run of a floor area i.e the hall or is it better for them to be in a smaller place.
  • I also read on another site i should do it on the couch first then move them to a pen, this doesn't sound correct?
  • Another site said once they have been in the pen together to give them a buddy bath. (I have given buddy baths before but found it was a stop gap not a long term solution). The site then went on to say the scary bath and drying time should help them bond, but to me that seems overtly cruel to frighten your piggies into being freinds.
  • My Boys live side by side, I have a picture of my setup in another thread, and they are at the stage now of lying next to each other (divider in the way). Sometimes passing food to each other. But every now and again they do have a little chudder at each other.
I really want them both to get along so they can benifit from a massive cage and not a decent sized half cage each. However failing the bonding I am considering one of the following options:
  • Taking them both to be neutered and getting them a wife each from a rescue (down side to this I think it will set my other two bonded boars off who live in the 2nd tier of my guinea pig castle.
  • Taking them to a rescue and bonding them with other boars, however that means I would have 6 boars, and they would have to live siude by side.
  • Finally do nothing, and leave them seperated but I feel this is unfair on them as they don't get to play like my two bonded boars do
Looking forward to response
Joe
Click to expand...

Hi!

Please follow the tips in our very detailed step-by-step bonding guide; it takes you though the whole process from prep to the end of the dominance phase with tips and key social behaviours to look out for. It discusses neutral ground (which is a confined area like a run, a bathroom or a lined bathtub or large shower, otherwise guinea pigs may not interact) as well as the use of buddy baths (although still widely recommended online, the use has not borne out in practice as forum members can attest).
Sofa tester meetings can be helpful when boars haven't had a chance to meet before the intro and you do not have time to let them get to know each other through the bars at least overnight. If hostilities are pretty instant, then a bonding is never going to work. This does not apply to your situation.

If your bonding fails, your options largely depend on your rescue and vet access. We can unfortunately not give you any recommendations for your area unless you choose to add your US/AUS state, Can province, UK county or other country to your details, which would allow us to tailor any advice to what is available and relevant in your area.
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk...cation-and-creating-an-avatar-picture.107444/
A discussion of the various pros and cons of each option together with recommended rescue and vet links for several countries can be found in the chapter of this guide here: Boars: Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
 
Wiebke said:
Hi!

Please follow the tips in our very detailed step-by-step bonding guide; it takes you though the whole process from prep to the end of the dominance phase with tips and key social behaviours to look out for. It discusses neutral ground (which is a confined area like a run, a bathroom or a lined bathtub or large shower, otherwise guinea pigs may not interact) as well as the use of buddy baths (although still widely recommended online, the use has not borne out in practice as forum members can attest).
Sofa tester meetings can be helpful when boars haven't had a chance to meet before the intro and you do not have time to let them get to know each other through the bars at least overnight. If hostilities are pretty instant, then a bonding is never going to work. This does not apply to your situation.

If your bonding fails, your options largely depend on your rescue and vet access. We can unfortunately not give you any recommendations for your area unless you choose to add your US/AUS state, Can province, UK county or other country to your details, which would allow us to tailor any advice to what is available and relevant in your area.
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk...cation-and-creating-an-avatar-picture.107444/
A discussion of the various pros and cons of each option together with recommended rescue and vet links for several countries can be found in the chapter of this guide here: Boars: Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Click to expand...

Hi Wiebke, thanks for the response I have gone through the reading material on this site and others. I suppose as I am gearing up to the reintroduction and don't want to get a step wrong I just wanted to confirm the main one was the size of the introduction stage and you answered that.

With regards to boar herds, do you have any good links for information i.e whilst trios and quads wont work at what number does it become viable i.e 6 or does it have to be ten. I appreciate you generally would rather advice against this, But I am weighing up options. I believe I can create a pen with a ground floor of 21square ft (7*3) and also a loft area. I currently have two bonded boars, and the two seperated boars, I could easily rehome some boars from people who have simply lost interest. And create a herd.
I really only want my piggies to be the happiest they can be, and I beilieve interaction is the best for that.
 
Scooby& Shaggy said:
Hi Wiebke, thanks for the response I have gone through the reading material on this site and others. I suppose as I am gearing up to the reintroduction and don't want to get a step wrong I just wanted to confirm the main one was the size of the introduction stage and you answered that.

With regards to boar herds, do you have any good links for information i.e whilst trios and quads wont work at what number does it become viable i.e 6 or does it have to be ten. I appreciate you generally would rather advice against this, But I am weighing up options. I believe I can create a pen with a ground floor of 21square ft (7*3) and also a loft area. I currently have two bonded boars, and the two seperated boars, I could easily rehome some boars from people who have simply lost interest. And create a herd.
I really only want my piggies to be the happiest they can be, and I beilieve interaction is the best for that.
Click to expand...

Generally, the larger a bachelor herd the better - the smaller it is, the more it depends on the personalities involved actually meshing. 5-6 boys is very much at the lower end. It works best with older boars whose testosterone has pretty much fizzled out (pensioner boar quartets also often work for that reason - they are more like sows in that respect at that stage of their lives). If you want to build up a boar herd, you need to make allowance that not all piggies will necessarily fit in or be happy in a situation like that and that there can be conflicts along way (dominance fights or bullying), so you need have some spare accommodation, too.
Ideally the boys have space to get away from each other and can form their own little subgroups that like to hang out with each other, as they would in a normal setting. Space is crucial for any bachelor herds!

Building up a herd is a matter of careful background research and trial and error - it was certainly that for me when I built up my large Tribe group. You also have to be aware that group behaviour is a dynamic process that changes constantly and that can change to the worse and not just to the better as you go through the generations. In my own experience a flexible layout comes in most handy when you have to suddenly split up or off.
If you want have a herd, look for older and/or submissive boars and those that come from a larger herd situation but one without too many fighting scars from confined and desperate situations, so they are more accepting of this, especially as younger boys.
 
Wiebke said:
Generally, the larger a bachelor herd the better - the smaller it is, the more it depends on the personalities involved actually meshing. 5-6 boys is very much at the lower end. It works best with older boars whose testosterone has pretty much fizzled out (pensioner boar quartets also often work for that reason - they are more like sows in that respect at that stage of their lives). If you want to build up a boar herd, you need to make allowance that not all piggies will necessarily fit in or be happy in a situation like that and that there can be conflicts along way (dominance fights or bullying), so you need have some spare accommodation, too.
Ideally the boys have space to get away from each other and can form their own little subgroups that like to hang out with each other, as they would in a normal setting. Space is crucial for any bachelor herds!

Building up a herd is a matter of careful background research and trial and error - it was certainly that for me when I built up my large Tribe group. You also have to be aware that group behaviour is a dynamic process that changes constantly and that can change to the worse and not just to the better as you go through the generations. In my own experience a flexible layout comes in most handy when you have to suddenly split up or off.
If you want have a herd, look for older and/or submissive boars and those that come from a larger herd situation but one without too many fighting scars from confined and desperate situations, so they are more accepting of this, especially as younger boys.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this fantastic advice, i think for now I will try the reintroductions and hopefully that will go well. However if it doesn't I will have to wait until the mid part of the year when all my current boars would be past the 14 month stage and then look at older rescue males.
Also I will need that time to convince my girlfreind this is a good idea :D
 
Scooby& Shaggy said:
Thanks for this fantastic advice, i think for now I will try the reintroductions and hopefully that will go well. However if it doesn't I will have to wait until the mid part of the year when all my current boars would be past the 14 month stage and then look at older rescue males.
Also I will need that time to convince my girlfreind this is a good idea :D
Click to expand...

Personally, I would keep it to your existing boys.

If you have got a good rescue with boar dating within reasonable reach, then choose that as your plan B; otherwise look for vets.

Personally, I would build up a bachelor herd only with the help of a rescue so you can find the ideal personality/age mix without ending up with too many single/problem boys. If the core of your herd is a bunch of young adults with still a fairly strong testosterone output, older boars may not fit in/it could lead to dominance issues. You generally best build up a hrd around your core group that does not challenge the existing hierarchy.

I started my group around a middle-aged neutered boar by introducing more mostly younger sows with a group background after the death of his elderly first wife and his first pair of sows - Nia from the first adopted sister pair kept her First Lady spot for 3 1/2 years until she was pushed out by an ambitious younger sow, aged 4.

Building up a group isn't easy at all and gives you plenty of headaches and sleepless nights! I had the advantage of having been around piggies for 20 years before I was able to realise my own long held childhood dream, and I became very quickly grateful for every ounce of that experience! Wait with your plans until you have seen boars through go their whole lives, know their behaviours and dynamics etc. well before you embark on a large venture!
 
Wiebke said:
Personally, I would keep it to your existing boys.

If you have got a good rescue with boar dating within reasonable reach, then choose that as your plan B; otherwise look for vets.

Personally, I would build up a bachelor herd only with the help of a rescue so you can find the ideal personality/age mix without ending up with too many single/problem boys. If the core of your herd is a bunch of young adults with still a fairly strong testosterone output, older boars may not fit in/it could lead to dominance issues. You generally best build up a hrd around your core group that does not challenge the existing hierarchy.

I started my group around a middle-aged neutered boar by introducing more mostly younger sows with a group background after the death of his elderly first wife and his first pair of sows - Nia from the first adopted sister pair kept her First Lady spot for 3 1/2 years until she was pushed out by an ambitious younger sow, aged 4.

Building up a group isn't easy at all and gives you plenty of headaches and sleepless nights! I had the advantage of having been around piggies for 20 years before I was able to realise my own long held childhood dream, and I became very quickly grateful for every ounce of that experience! Wait with your plans until you have seen boars through go their whole lives, know their behaviours and dynamics etc. well before you embark on a large venture!
Click to expand...

Thanks again Wiebke, hopefully the bonding will go well and I won't have to go for another option. My issue is as i have four boars two bonded two not. I see the way the bonded ones interact and it feels that the unbonded pair are missing out.
I will no doubt post over the weekend with how it turns out.
 
Scooby& Shaggy said:
Thanks again Wiebke, hopefully the bonding will go well and I won't have to go for another option. My issue is as i have four boars two bonded two not. I see the way the bonded ones interact and it feels that the unbonded pair are missing out.
I will no doubt post over the weekend with how it turns out.
Click to expand...

All the best!
 
@Wiebke just wanted to ask, in your experince have you come across boars who have a overactive grease gland. If so has this been detrimental when it comes to bonding. One of my boars Scooby who I am going to try and rebond with shaggy tomorrow/saturday. Has always had a really active gland, which matted and was quite pungent.
I bought some cocunut oil as no amount of bathing would break it up, the cocunut oil has worked wonders and I was just thinking could this have been the problem when trying to bond them previously and having issues?
Thanks
Joe
 
Scooby& Shaggy said:
@Wiebke just wanted to ask, in your experince have you come across boars who have a overactive grease gland. If so has this been detrimental when it comes to bonding. One of my boars Scooby who I am going to try and rebond with shaggy tomorrow/saturday. Has always had a really active gland, which matted and was quite pungent.
I bought some cocunut oil as no amount of bathing would break it up, the cocunut oil has worked wonders and I was just thinking could this have been the problem when trying to bond them previously and having issues?
Thanks
Joe
Click to expand...

Overactive grease glands are not uncommon, but they are not a factor when it comes to bonding chances. In the end any successful bond relies on the boys wanting to be together and getting on with each other. No amount of deodorising and scent masking will influence that.

We do recommend using coconut oil for cleaning grease glands: Boar Care: Bits, Bums & Baths
 
Wiebke said:
Overactive grease glands are not uncommon, but they are not a factor when it comes to bonding chances. In the end any successful bond relies on the boys wanting to be together and getting on with each other. No amount of deodorising and scent masking will influence that.

We do recommend using coconut oil for cleaning grease glands: Boar Care: Bits, Bums & Baths
Click to expand...
Thanks for confirming was just wondering if it was a contributing factor to the success.
 
@Wiebke Tried earlier in a neautural area, followed the steps of the bonding process. It went horribly wrong, I have had to take scooby to the vets as shaggy flat out attacked him, I broke it up but it was too late. He has a gash on his the inside of one of his back legs and two puncture wounds on his back near the top of his neck, i assume this was one bite.
the vet has prescribed antibiotics and pain relief, also to go back in five days for a checkup, she also shaved the areas near the wounds. I feel awful, and I am at a loss as to what to do now. As I want my guineas to have a good quality of life, but being seperated doesn't seem like they do.
I honestly do not know what to do at this point for the best.
Any advice is welcome,
 
Scooby& Shaggy said:
@Wiebke Tried earlier in a neautural area, followed the steps of the bonding process. It went horribly wrong, I have had to take scooby to the vets as shaggy flat out attacked him, I broke it up but it was too late. He has a gash on his the inside of one of his back legs and two puncture wounds on his back near the top of his neck, i assume this was one bite.
the vet has prescribed antibiotics and pain relief, also to go back in five days for a checkup, she also shaved the areas near the wounds. I feel awful, and I am at a loss as to what to do now. As I want my guineas to have a good quality of life, but being seperated doesn't seem like they do.
I honestly do not know what to do at this point for the best.
Any advice is welcome,
Click to expand...

I am very sorry that it has gone so badly pear-shaped.

I cannot help you without knowing your area. Can you please add your US/AUS state, Can province or UK county your details. Any decisions fully depend on your local options. Click on your username on the top bar, then go personal details and scroll down to location.

How old are our boys?
 
Wiebke said:
I am very sorry that it has gone so badly pear-shaped.

I cannot help you without knowing your area. Can you please add your US/AUS state, Can province or UK county your details. Any decisions fully depend on your local options. Click on your username on the top bar, then go personal details and scroll down to location.

How old are our boys?
Click to expand...
I have added my location but just in case (leigh, Lancashire, united kingdom)
They are roughly 10/12 months, I got them as "Brothers" from pets at home. Initially they were fine together then after a few months (theres a thread on this) they fell out. I then had to move house (due to water damage) and in the new cage they were fins for a short while but fell out again. For the last few months there has been no rumblestrutting between them (c&c divider) no teetch chattering. And sometimes they were passing food to each other. So to me it seemed like the time was right. Clearly I was wrong.
 
Scooby& Shaggy said:
I have added my location but just in case (leigh, Lancashire, united kingdom)
They are roughly 10/12 months, I got them as "Brothers" from pets at home. Initially they were fine together then after a few months (theres a thread on this) they fell out. I then had to move house (due to water damage) and in the new cage they were fins for a short while but fell out again. For the last few months there has been no rumblestrutting between them (c&c divider) no teetch chattering. And sometimes they were passing food to each other. So to me it seemed like the time was right. Clearly I was wrong.
Click to expand...

They obviously do not want to be together; most fallen out boars won't in fact. Your boys are still teenagers by the way. :(
This guide here explains it all, including the teenage months; it is really worth reading through as I can't repeat the full advice every time, considering that it has taken me several days to wite it. You can now find our guide collection via the shortcut on the top bar, by the way.
Boars: Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

You have got three long term options:
- keep them as next door neighbours in adjoining cages with interaction through the bars. A number of members has got 'can't live together and can't live apart' pairs.
- you can try to date both at a good rescue that offer boar dating. Your closest rescues that we can recommend for you to be in safe hands is either The Potteries Guinea Pig Rescue in Kidsgrove/Stoke-on-Trent or smaller Merrypigs rescue in Stoke-on-Trent. Sadly none of the Manchester or Liverpool rescues are ones that we can recommend.
Why is it worth travelling further afield? You will only come back with a new companion if acceptance has happened and have the rescue to fall back on if there are problems, so you do not end up with any more boars that do not get on.
Guinea Pig Rescue Centre Locator
- you can consider having your boys neutered so they can each live with a sow companion after a 6 weeks post-op wait. Cross gender bonds are the most stable of all, but finding a good vet is important in order to cut down on the risk of post-op complications. This is not a cheap or quick solution but the one that is the most stable for the long term.
A propos post-op wait: the little baby in my avatar is the unplanned daughter of a supposedly safe over 5 weeks post-op boar (not one of mine), just to prove that particular point. Our recommendation follows best rescue practice and is 100% safe.
- Neutering boars and expecting them to get on does NOT work!

Please take the time to do your research once you have calmed down; don't rush into anything. There is unfortunately not a magic problem-free solution. All of them have their pros and cons, which are discussed in more detail in the falling out guide. You have to find the way that is best for your specific situation, set-up and possibilities.

Please also note that I am jumping between lots of threads every day and well over a thousand in a year; some of which run on but lots of them don't. I simply cannot remember everything.
We are just too busy a forum with too many members from all over the world for that; it is the price we pay for being a such lively, active forum that answers every problem as promptly as possible. You will get better advice if you put any short salient background information into a new thread, like the age, whether your boys have had to be separated beforehand or not etc. ;)
 
Wiebke said:
They obviously do not want to be together; most fallen out boars won't in fact. Your boys are still teenagers by the way. :(
This guide here explains it all, including the teenage months; it is really worth reading through as I can't repeat the full advice every time, considering that it has taken me several days to wite it. You can now find our guide collection via the shortcut on the top bar, by the way.
Boars: Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

You have got three long term options:
- keep them as next door neighbours in adjoining cages with interaction through the bars. A number of members has got 'can't live together and can't live apart' pairs.
- you can try to date both at a good rescue that offer boar dating. Your closest rescues that we can recommend for you to be in safe hands is either The Potteries Guinea Pig Rescue in Kidsgrove/Stoke-on-Trent or smaller Merrypigs rescue in Stoke-on-Trent. Sadly none of the Manchester or Liverpool rescues are ones that we can recommend.
Why is it worth travelling further afield? You will only come back with a new companion if acceptance has happened and have the rescue to fall back on if there are problems, so you do not end up with any more boars that do not get on.
Guinea Pig Rescue Centre Locator
- you can consider having your boys neutered so they can each live with a sow companion after a 6 weeks post-op wait. Cross gender bonds are the most stable of all, but finding a good vet is important in order to cut down on the risk of post-op complications. This is not a cheap or quick solution but the one that is the most stable for the long term.
A propos post-op wait: the little baby in my avatar is the unplanned daughter of a supposedly safe over 5 weeks post-op boar (not one of mine), just to prove that particular point. Our recommendation follows best rescue practice and is 100% safe.
- Neutering boars and expecting them to get on does NOT work!

Please take the time to do your research once you have calmed down; don't rush into anything. There is unfortunately not a magic problem-free solution. All of them have their pros and cons, which are discussed in more detail in the falling out guide. You have to find the way that is best for your specific situation, set-up and possibilities.

Please also note that I am jumping between lots of threads every day and well over a thousand in a year; some of which run on but lots of them don't. I simply cannot remember everything.
We are just too busy a forum with too many members from all over the world for that; it is the price we pay for being a such lively, active forum that answers every problem as promptly as possible. You will get better advice if you put any short salient background information into a new thread, like the age, whether your boys have had to be separated beforehand or not etc. ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks Wiebke, I was considering those options before introducing anyway, but I deffo wont be re-introducing scooby and shaggy again. My big concern about getting more guinea pigs would be the time/care, cost is not a major contributing factor. I really appreciate your input and fully appreciate how busy you are helping people like me.
This forum has been a big help since getting the piggies in lots of different ways, so keep up the good work. I'm going to take a bit kof time to consider what to do. I really don't want to surrender any of my piggies, but in the same respect I want to do whats best for them.
Thanks again
Joe
 
I am so sorry to hear your boars fell out on their reintroduction, it's such a shame. A huge disappointment for you but as you say take your time and consider your options.
 
piggieminder said:
I am so sorry to hear your boars fell out on their reintroduction, it's such a shame. A huge disappointment for you but as you say take your time and consider your options.
Click to expand...
Thanks, i just feel really bad for my scooby, however shaggy I am convinced is evil as when i came back from the vets he was popcorning in his enclosure.
 
Poor Scooby, sending him healing vibes hope his wounds get better quickly.
Rusty popcorns like mad when he thinks he's got one over on Bracken. I suspect Bracken is waiting for him to get a bit bigger then he will get his own back! Bracken approx. 14 months, Rusty 6months.
 
Sorry it didn't work. I've been watching the thread and rooting for them to get along. I remember when they originally fell out. Take your time deciding what to do. They might be like me - like company but wouldn't have anyone living with me, lol.
 
Reenie said:
Sorry it didn't work. I've been watching the thread and rooting for them to get along. I remember when they originally fell out. Take your time deciding what to do. They might be like me - like company but wouldn't have anyone living with me, lol.
Click to expand...

Haha, thanks for your kind words. I'm going to wait a good few weeks to see how he gets on healing. If I didn't have my other boys I'd goto a sanctuary and get them a pal each. But the prospect of 6 piggies seems to much in terms of caring and time.
 
Just a little update. Scooby seems to be doing well, he has popcorning a few times this evening. Eaten lots of hay, veg and pellets. He is resting out in the open in his enclosure and is going up to the divider to see shaggy. They haven't rumble strutted or chatted teeth.
My only concern now is how often do I clean his wounds, I didn't think to ask the vet? I haven't done it since the incident because I thought he's had enough for one day.
 
Scooby& Shaggy said:
Just a little update. Scooby seems to be doing well, he has popcorning a few times this evening. Eaten lots of hay, veg and pellets. He is resting out in the open in his enclosure and is going up to the divider to see shaggy. They haven't rumble strutted or chatted teeth.
My only concern now is how often do I clean his wounds, I didn't think to ask the vet? I haven't done it since the incident because I thought he's had enough for one day.
Click to expand...
Saline solution Guinea Lynx :: Antiseptic Solutions

Vet gave you any pain relief?
 
sport_billy said:
Saline solution Guinea Lynx :: Antiseptic Solutions

Vet gave you any pain relief?
Click to expand...

Yeah, pain relief and antibiotics. Pain relief .2ml once a day antibiotics .5ml twice a day.
Gave him his meds this morning and the wound on his underside already looks to be on the mend, really surprised thought it would look bad for a while.
 
Just for those who messaged about the good vibes here is scooby and shaggy lay next to each other (either side of the divider of course)
Also I decided to change the layout of the cages up abit and given them half n half (fleece and hay). This resulted in lots of popcorning from scooby and shaggy. Elvis and drogon didn't seem bothered. Sincerely taking the pics, I've done a little fleece forest for scooby n shaggy. And given scooby an upturned hideys with lots of fleece for bedding he loves it.

IMG_20180210_205529.webp

IMG_20180210_214343.webp

IMG_20180210_214326.webp
 
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