Bonding - could it work?

[Sodapops]

So, for the last few days ive been trying to bond my trio (neutered boy and two girls) with my mother and daughter pairing and things have gone 'OK' - i was just wanting a second (or 3rd, 4th) opinion on whether what's happened so far sounds like i should continue, or quit while I'm ahead?

On Thursday i tried a bonding bath - everything was 'OK' for about 2hrs - they pretty much stayed away from one another - shared some hay/grass and so long as Wexford and his two girlfriends stayed away from JJ and her daughter Summer - there was no teeth chattering, they just didn't seem at all interested in one another - there were a few nips from Summer and JJ if the others (or indeed one another) came near. I cleaned out their cages, joined them together to make a 9ft x 2ft enclosure, this is where things didn't go so well and JJ started her teeth chattering/chasing/nipping. Summer just look so frightened by it all, but at one point did lick Tulisa's ears and sniffed Wexford - apart from this she nipped if they came face to face with her.

I left it for a couple of days and have been switching each group around to one another's cages. Instead of trying one big group i got JJ and Wexford together. JJ chattered her teeth at him every time he came near - bless him, he gave it a good go at trying to 'woo' her. Ive got some tunnels made from bent C&C grids and while either JJ or Wexford were in these the other would come over and chat/sniff one another - no obvious signs of aggression whilst behind a barrier.

I then tried JJ with Charlotte and Tulisa (Wexfords girlfiends) - the teeth chattering stopped, but what JJ did do was chase and nip - Both Tulisa and Charlotte thought it was best not to annoy her and sit still. This was a short meeting (around 15/20mins).

Summer then joined Charlotte and Tulisa - pretty much the same thing happened as with JJ - she is fine until she comes face to face with them and will then nip at them (no teeth chattering or showing) - again both girls sat still and hardly moved - i think they were scared more so than anything.

On the 1 occassion Summer and Wexford have met Summer pretty much stays away from him and will nip at him if he comes too near - she has never chattered teeth throughout - so i wouldn't say her behaviour is nothing to with aggression - more like stating her authority

So my question is - should i persevere with the bonding process?

They are currently living side by side in their respective cages and there has been no aggression through the bar - quite the opposite, ive seen them talking to/rubbing noses.

 

[Connie]

As long as there has been no blood drawn, There is no necessity to seperate yet. However, what i will suggest *and its only a suggestion* is that all this swapping them around may be stressing them out a little. Mainly because piggies have to re establish dominance every time the group dynamic changes. I'm not saying it wont work, I'm just suggesting it may be better if they only ever meet as all of them together. *also, maybe give them a week to settle back down*

But I'm not an expert and hopefully experts will be along soon.

 

[gogoguineas]

That last bit sounds quite positive! I think it could work it may just take a long time. As long as there's no blood shed I would persevere. There's a lot of new smell going on for all of them and like with humans it can be overwhelming so it will take some piggies longer to accept newbies. You could try a tiny dab of vix vapour rub on everyones bum that way they all smell the same. I have tried this and it works pretty well! Good luck with it all!

 

[Sodapops]

As long as there has been no blood drawn, There is no necessity to seperate yet. However, what i will suggest *and its only a suggestion* is that all this swapping them around may be stressing them out a little. Mainly because piggies have to re establish dominance every time the group dynamic changes. I'm not saying it wont work, I'm just suggesting it may be better if they only ever meet as all of them together. *also, maybe give them a week to settle back down*

But I'm not an expert and hopefully experts will be along soon.

Thanks for the post Connie I always took it that girls were much more laid back than boys in terms of the bonding process, i know that with boys, once you've put them together you've commited and so pretty much have to stick it out until they 'move' in together. I always thought girls would allow for a much slower bonding process i.e can be done over several days/weeks/months whereas boys once put together generally stay together if there are no fights?

My two groups were together after their bonding bath for around 6hrs+ (3hrs initial meeting and around 2-3hrs in the cleaned out enclosures) - to be honest with the nipping from Summer and teeth chattering/nipping from
JJ still going on i made the decision to remove the connecting ramps and leave them in their usual groups as i wasn't comfortable with the 'atmosphere' between them all - leaving them over-night was not an option.... I suppose i could have left it to see what happened, but i wasn't totally confident that i would have come down to a happy herd :0

In terms of getting them all out together, my reason for getting them out this evening in 'pairs' was because Thursday was quite tuff going - if i only had 1 sow to watch that would be fine, but keeping an eagle eye on two brashy sows and two wary sows along with a randy boar was quite difficult - if a fight would have broken out with two pigs - i wouldn't be able to watch the other 3 and i need to be sure all are safe/happy.. This bonding lark isn't so easy when there are more pigs involved. :p

That last bit sounds quite positive! I think it could work it may just take a long time. As long as there's no blood shed I would persevere. There's a lot of new smell going on for all of them and like with humans it can be overwhelming so it will take some piggies longer to accept newbies. You could try a tiny dab of vix vapour rub on everyones bum that way they all smell the same. I have tried this and it works pretty well! Good luck with it all!

Summer is quite easy going - she'll sit for hours while you give her chin rubs/tickles - although she isn't too fond of Wexford's advances - she's never chattered her teeth at all - she's chased and nipped :{ There was a moment on Thursday when they were in the enclosure where Charlotte (the youngest) went up to Summer and started screaming at her - they touched noses and after about 10 seconds of anticipation Summer walked away.

My problem is lack of sow bonding experience mallethead

 

[Connie]

thats ok, It sounds like your thought process is sound, however I have heard that even sows need to establish a hierarchy. I would also imagine that if the pairs gotten out bonded fairly well, it may cause more problems when they are all a group.

Sows are much more receptive to the slow process and i dont think you would be doing anything wrong by getting all of them out together, (5 is it?) for a couple of hours every day to see how it goes.

From what ive seen on here, if sows are going to really dislike eachother it tends to be fairly instant. Give them a little time all together (btw, sows are unlikely to draw blood in a fight unlike boars. It can happen ofcourse, however its less likely. They would have to really dislike eachother which I imagine would be fairly obvious.) Perhaps devote a day, (when you dont work) and get them out together nice and early in the morning, then leave them all day *obviously under supervision* and see how it goes more long term?

Ive never had sows either, so please bare in mind that all my "advice" is simply stuff ive observed on the forum and should in no way be taken as definatly right

 

[Sodapops]

thats ok, It sounds like your thought process is sound, however I have heard that even sows need to establish a hierarchy. I would also imagine that if the pairs gotten out bonded fairly well, it may cause more problems when they are all a group.

Sows are much more receptive to the slow process and i dont think you would be doing anything wrong by getting all of them out together, (5 is it?) for a couple of hours every day to see how it goes.

From what ive seen on here, if sows are going to really dislike eachother it tends to be fairly instant. Give them a little time all together (btw, sows are unlikely to draw blood in a fight unlike boars. It can happen ofcourse, however its less likely. They would have to really dislike eachother which I imagine would be fairly obvious.) Perhaps devote a day, (when you dont work) and get them out together nice and early in the morning, then leave them all day *obviously under supervision* and see how it goes more long term?

Ive never had sows either, so please bare in mind that all my "advice" is simply stuff ive observed on the forum and should in no way be taken as definatly right

Thanks Connie - to be honest my bonding of sows is pretty much 0 like you - imo my boys were so much easier :p - really any advice is better than what i have at the moment - it's all gotta help

At the moment the bonding is done in my hallway - and sitting on the wooden floor/steps for 2hrs was really hard going - for obvious reason i couldn't just wonder off for 30mins as i had to keep an eye on them all the time - likewise when i put them in their enclosure/cages i had to consistently sit next to them and watch their movements - how would an all day bonding session work? What i mean by that is how would we watch them with them being out in the hallway? i'm guessing it would take seconds for it to kick off, so eyes would need to be upon them the whole time....

With 2 girls to integrate it's slightly more difficult as I'm essentially watching the movements of 5 pigs as opposed to if i was just bonding the 1 into the group...

How do you know when it's safe to put them in their permanent 'living' quarters? Is there any behaviour i should be looking out for?

I really appreciate the snippets of help/advice, i really need to arm myself with as much ammunition as possible - the bonding sessions are certainly eventful and are keeping me on my toes

 

[Connie]

First of all, If your piggies are living in C&C cages, you could use the grids only to make an enclosure somewhere more comfortable like a living room, just for the day. That way you could watch them more easily. From what i have heard on here, if your girls were going to brutally attack eachother they would have by now. From here on in its more likely they will either nip a little while sorting out dominance. Therefor after the first hour or two i would imagine its ok to relax a little and watch telly aswell (or anything else you want)

The when is it ok seems to be the hardest question. I think the best time is when they seem to be getting along without confontation. At some point you just have to take the plunge.

There is a good thread at the top of the behaviour section called "sow behaviour" which is definatly worth a look.

 

[Sodapops]

First of all, If your piggies are living in C&C cages, you could use the grids only to make an enclosure somewhere more comfortable like a living room, just for the day. That way you could watch them more easily. From what i have heard on here, if your girls were going to brutally attack eachother they would have by now. From here on in its more likely they will either nip a little while sorting out dominance. Therefor after the first hour or two i would imagine its ok to relax a little and watch telly aswell (or anything else you want)

The when is it ok seems to be the hardest question. I think the best time is when they seem to be getting along without confontation. At some point you just have to take the plunge.

There is a good thread at the top of the behaviour section called "sow behaviour" which is definatly worth a look.

Thanks for all your replies Connie

All my pigs are in 5ft x 2.5ft cages - the enclosure they'll eventually be sharing will be linked using two ramps. Due to having 10 pigs my dining room is taken over by the current 5 cage setup with the cages 'stacked' along one wall. While there is floor space in the dining area - I'm not entirely comfortable about using this area as my 4 boys cages are floor level - so if the girls get too close it will drive them wild (all my girls/neutered boy live in cages stacked on top of the 4 boys). My living room just isn't piggy safe at all - i'll work something out.

 

[Connie]

Ahhhh, Sorry i was under the impression that these piggies you were bonding were your only piggies mallethead

In that case, I would say your best course of action is to remove the piggies you intend to bond, clean the cage they would all be in together very thoroughly and put them all in it for the day. See how it goes. As it is an ample space i would think this is the best course of action as the seem to be getting on in the floor time they have had so far. Take the plunge. Its unlikely they will fight, and if your unhappy with how they are getting on you can always seperate.