Bonding Males - 2 babies with a 5 month old boar - have I done the right thing?

[shiny]

Oh help!

Our older boar Willow died on Christmas Eve leaving his young companion Bertie alone. We had successfully introduced Willow & Bertie back in September when Bertie was just 7 weeks old & Willow nearly 4, no problems, all done on neutral ground etc.

This week we went to get a new friend for Bertie, we got a 10 week old male (now named Horatio) from somebody who needed to find good homes for a couple of babies & stopped off on the way home to get a water bottle from the big pet store. Sadly as we passed the guinea bit we saw a teeny guinea being chased around & not given a moment's peace. His ears were all tattered but it didn't look recent. I got the shop assistant to get him out so I could look at him, he was lovely so we ended up bringing him home too. He is small, only just over 300g but is now eating for Britain, I guess he was so hassled he couldn't eat much, he looks about 6-8 weeks old. He is now called Pip.

We were doing proper quarantine in seperate rooms but Horatio became very depressed, hardly eating or drinking & just sitting huddled up. Pip was fine by himself, delighted to have all the food & hay he could want & very friendly towards us. Today we decided that we would have to break quarantine as we were so worried about Horatio.

We got everybody into the massive pen with loads of veggies scattered & some big piles of hay. Initially Bertie just ran around like a mad thing, kind of herding the babies & rumbling loudly all the time. He was scent-marking everything including them a bit & walking on them. He did a bit of humping but hardly any really. He calmed down after a bit & they were all eating hay & veggies.

After an hour or so we decided that we would try them all together in the big cage (Bertie's cage) which we had given a really good clean out while they were in the pen. There are no toys in it, just 3 bowls of their dry mix. We use megazorb as substrate with a deep layer of hay on top. We did have a towel drape at one side for a dark area but when we popped the boys in the cage, Horatio dashed under the towel & started clicking loudly so I took it off to avoid a potential fight over this.

Two hours later & Bertie is still going around the cage rumbling & telling off the babies. There has been no real fighting, Horatio tried to nip Bertie's bum a couple of times but bertie & Horatio are pretty vocal. Pip just want to eat & is ignoring them mostly. Horatio & Pip are mostly hiding under big piles of hay & Bertie keeps going to rumble at them & disturb them. Bertie thinks that all three food bowls are his personal property. He must be exhausted, he hasn't stopped rumbling for hours now. Now & then Bertie has just flopped down & had a little sleep but then the babies make a tiny noise & it starts them off again.

Should I stick with it, brave it out & keep them in there as long as there is no realy fighting / blood drawn? I am worried about what I will do if I seaparate them now, all of today will have been for nothing, they will be stressed again & I will have to start with them again from scratch. Do I just need to hold my nerve or is it unlikely to work? Is Bertie too young at 5 months to take to new babies? He has just gone to sleep again on his side, looking absolutely whacked

 

[Hermes]

Well nothing serious has happened so far and the usual rule is so long as no blood is drawn keep going, they have to go through all the dominance behaviours to establish order.

There is no certainty that Bertie would have accepted either of the younger ones on their own and it's complicated by trying to intro three of them. Trios of boars are not recommended as they rarely work out, either all three fail to get on or two bond and the third gets bullied. Your oldest boar is still in the hormonal stage and your two younger ones have still got to go through it, even if they settle together now be prepared for potential fall outs later on.

That said it's not impossible to have boar trios and people do manage to keep them successfully. You do need to make sure you give them plenty of space, as much as possible, I'd say at least 2x5 in grids (just over 2ftx6ft). Three of everything as you have been doing and no hideys that they can trap each other in or fight over, covered areas (corners) would be better.

I know you said you were quarantining them which is good but you broke quarantine because Horatio seemed depressed, are you sure he's not got any symptoms of illness? Just a thought because a depressed and not eating guinea pig could also be an ill one. On the same subject I'm assuming that you've checked for external parasites and made sure that they are both definitely males? Pet shops seem to be notoriously unreliable with such things and I'm guessing since the other person had baby pigs to rehome they weren't necessarily well informed either.

I don't mean to come across as overly critical, just want to make sure you got all your bases covered.

 

[shiny]

Thanks Hermes - don't worry, I don't think you're being critical, these are important things to check!

The babies are both definitely male, we checked & they have boy bits! They are healthy with good coats, no signs of parasites, clear eyes, clean ears etc. Horatio was a different pig as soon as we introduced him to the others, he just seemed terrified before, he had never been on his own before we got him. He is quite happy now, he is eating & has put on weight. He is telling Bertie to stop bossing him when Bertie gets just a bit too protective of food bowls etc & Bertie seems to back off. As we don't expect Bertie to grow much more (he had major surgery & 3 weeks of Baytril at 9 weeks of age, he is 720g at 5 months old & it seems likely these factors have stunted his growth) I wonder if Horatio will end up the boss...

We realised late last night that Bertie didn't seem to mind Horatio but was really cross about Pip who appears totally inoffensive to us. Pip just wants to sit and eat, he hasn't entered into the arguing at all, he is so teeny, only just 300g. It was driving Bertie mad that Pip was hiding in the hay, we took Pip out in the end & we are housing by himself for now. We will try to get him bigger & fattened up a bit and then introduce a baby to him so we will hopefully have 2 pairs. We have another big cage so no problems there. Pip is quite happy by himself, I have never seen such a small pig eat so much food & produce so much poo! He is really tame & easy to catch, we had him out sitting on us quite happily while I changed the hay earlier, he was just sitting there nibbling bits of hay we gave him, he is such a cutie .

Bertie & Horatio seem ok together, Horatio can stand up for himself ok it seems. We have still been hearing Bertie rumbling around a bit but he has also been running around doing excited popcorns so that seems positive . We put the towel drape back across one end & they are sharing this area nicely, having little sleeps near each other. They have 2 bowls of dry mix & shared a bowl of fresh veggies earlier. Fingers crossed that for now we are ok...

 

[missybct]

It sounds as if Bertie and Horatio are bonding fine - like Hermes said unless there is real aggression or blood shed it sounds as if they are just establishing hierarchy. Keep an eye on them and make sure they have two of everything, like you already have.

As for Pip - it may be best to try and rescue an older pig to go with him. If two piggies are going through the hormonal phase together that is when problems can arise. We have two pairs of similar age piggies and realise that there may be problems ahead as they will both be going through the phases together.

 

[shiny]

Hi missybct, I did think about getting an older boar but am nervous now about the bonding bit. It was so easy when we bonded Bertie & our old guinea pig Willow, Willow was nearly 4 & Bertie was a tiny dot. Bertie was scared of everything & just wanted to be near Willow. I am a bit worried also about taking on a much older male as we have had such health problems in that last 6 months with our two older boys. What age would you think the hormones have normally calmed down? Our previous boars (Willow & his brother Cloud) were always a bit cross with each other but never drew blood or anything. They probably calmed down a bit in later life but fell out when Cloud was ill towards the end of his life so we had to separate them as Willow was stressing Cloud just by being there . Poor Cloud was very poorly though, he had kidney stones / kidney failure.

Here is a pic of Bertie & Willow when we first introduced them - there was a big size difference!

 

[missybct]

The hormonal stage lasts between 3 months - 15 months roughly, with the latter months being the worst. Generally speaking, piggies tend to calm down around mid life which is why a lot of people pair boars together when one boar is older and one is younger. There is the risk of an older piggie having health problems, but then there are a lot of little piggies who have them too. If you are worried about the bonding, there are rescue centres around the country that offer "boar dating" - a supervised date with your existing piggie and a piggie that would be well suited. xox

 

[shiny]

It's very true what you say about younger piggies having health problems too - Bertie had a massive abcess under a rosette on the back of his neck which must have been there small when we got him but it wasn't noticeable for another 2 weeks. He had to have major surgery to remove it at 9 weeks old, through 3 layers of muscle & then couldn't eat properly so I had to hand feed him Critical Care until he regained control of his jaw muscles. He wan't insured at that stage & cost us a small fortune to get him well . People thought I was mad to spend money on a guinea pig rather than 'just get another one' - I really don't get people's attitudes towards smaller animals!

I have been thinking about what you suggested about an older rescue boar to pair with Pip & had a chat to the rest of the family about it. We think an older rescue boar would be a good idea. Do you think it would be sensible to let Pip get a bit stronger first? He is only just over 300g & very tiny. We are going to move him into the bigger enclosure today. He is eating for Britain so I'm hoping he will put on a bit of weight / condition soon.

 

[missybct]

Personally, I would let Pip grow a little bit more, but some may disagree and say he should have a cagemate asap. The only reason I say wait till he puts a bit of weight on is that older boar piggies can weigh in excess of 1000g, which would be a lot to a small 300g piggie - especially during the establishing dominance phase when boars can mount and lunge. The older boar wouldn't probably be trying to harm Pip, but if the boar is that much heavier then it could hurt Pip.

Also, the process of boar dating from rescues can take a while to establish home checks etc. There is no harm in getting the ball rolling with a local rescue - I'm not sure where you live but here is the link to the recommended rescues complied. https://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=209994852075231951564.0004b8fd9391b4257d8eb&msa=0

Good luck with finding a cagemate xox