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Can Anyone Suggest Anything Please?

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trudy2995

Junior Guinea Pig
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
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Location
yorkshire dales
Hi
I wonder if you can help please?
I first noticed as a big like purple scab..The vet said it was just dead skin and wanted to put her under anaesthetic to cut it away and see what was beneath it as she suspected a tumour. My own feeling was that it was an abscess of some kind.
I took her home on baytril and had a go at softening and removing the scab myself. She didn't mind this and seemed grate full as it was getting in the way of her eating. It actually like was just coming away from her skin and could even cut it off. This exposed pink healthy skin below the big mass of dead skin / scab.
The scab was just a mound of thick dead skin.And had like a white mass beneath like a yeast
I kept bathing her face and kept her on the baytril as the vet stated. But it seemed to get worse and spread. It spread into her mouth and under her chin and to her other cheek.
I suggested to the vet fungal as it was like rotting her mouth away.And she couldn't eat. The vet dismissed my idea of fungal and said to keep on the baytril, but she still thought it maybe a skin tumour.
I put her on nystan and daktarin oral gel and used genetian violet, and manuka honey. She started eating again after I bathed a lump from the inside corner of her mouth, like the yeast substance again..Also part of her bottom lip was like rotten and dead and just came away too.
I took her back to the vet and told her I wanted to try itrafungol as now another scab as broken out near her eye and going into her ear. Ive tried antifungal ointment, and cold sore creams too, but no use.
The vet last week reluctantly let me try itrafungol and wanted her put to sleep if this fails to work.
The itrafungol has arrived today but I think it maybe too far gone. She is alert, running around, eating, grooming etc. So I just want to giver her a try, as she is just over a year old.
But what can be eating away at her face and making it go black and scabby? And it keeps coming back.
It just reminds me of mouth rot that my tortoise once had.
Any advice would be truly appreciated as I don't want to loose her.
I live in the Yorkshire dales and all vets around here are farm vets so not really interested in small furries.
I have pictures but unsure if I can upload onto the site.

Thanks ever so much for any help..

Trudy
 
Am I allowed to link to another forum? Trudy has posted on another forum and there are pictures uploaded. I want to check before posting the link as I've only scanned the forum rules here.
 
JessieB said:
Am I allowed to link to another forum? Trudy has posted on another forum and there are pictures uploaded. I want to check before posting the link as I've only scanned the forum rules here.
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No, you cannot post link to other forums. If Trudy is able to post pictures in other location, she should be able to post them on here.
 
If the pictures are out on the internet she can simply copy and paste them into a post on this thread.

However, I would like to point out that short of starting her course of itrafungol asap (which should hopefully show first results within a couple of days) and seeing a more knowledgeable vet, there is unfortunately very little Trudy can do right now. I am extremely sorry that a lot of time has been wasted in her case and that things have become critical, but there isn't a quick miracle cure. If it is a fungal problem, itrafungol is the best medication for the job. :(
 
I have located the pictures on the other forum - I am stunned by this guinea pig's condition!

However, I feel/believe that euthanasia is the kindest option - I feel/believe that this guinea pig would require surgical intervention, and long-term intensive care to stand any chance of recovery!

I am surprised that the veterinarian has agreed to treat this guinea pig!

Certainly, this guinea pig should be receiving pain relief/anti-inflammatory medication (Metacam etc)!
 
I hope this is okay to post this. I would like to warn people about seeing the pictures as they were so upsetting they made me cry. I am so very sorry for this poor sweet piggy.
 
piggyfan said:
I hope this is okay to post this. I would like to warn people about seeing the pictures as they were so upsetting they made me cry. I am so very sorry for this poor sweet piggy.
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If it is that bad, I sincerely hope that the poor thing can be released from her suffering soon. I feel sorry for both her and her owner. :( :( :(
 
piggyfan said:
I hope this is okay to post this. I would like to warn people about seeing the pictures as they were so upsetting they made me cry. I am so very sorry for this poor sweet piggy.
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Wish I'd seen this before I saw the pictures... Thought the post was familiar... Poor piggy and owner going through this :'(
 
I have managed to find the pictures and have seen only one other documented case of this type of condition. That too was thought to be a tumour by the vet concerned but unfortunately (owing to some pretty opinionated responses), the owner didn't come back to report the outcome.

To Forum Members:
Whilst the pictures are indeed distressing....if the piggie concerned is still willing to eat and drink then i think the piggie is possibly less affected by the condition than perhaps the people that look at the photos. Please note: the owner has been treating with manuka honey - I have seen two recent cases where manuka honey (MEDICAL GRADE) has had miraculous effects on extremely large abcesses/suppurating wounds in guinea pigs that most people would think are incurable...and once applied to the wound, the subsequent photos make it "look worse" than it actually is.
No matter how gross a photo is, the main concern has to be the current quality of life of the piggie concerned... and only the piggie's owner and a local vet can determine that.

To Trudy:
Although it is worth trying the intrafungol, to my mind if does not look like the primary cause of the condition is fungal from the photos (although there may now be secondary infection). Assuming this is not a rare cancerous skin condition (which it could be but a biopsy would be needed)...which has subsequently become secondarily infected with bacteria/fungal/both........ then this also looks very similar to a disease in humans called necrotising fasciitis...(which is normally bacterial in origin and often attributed to a Streptococcus species). However looking at the positioning of the wounds, (which look much better in your second set of pictures as healthy tissue is now evident) it could be this is "just" a very bad case of cervical lymphadenitis (infection of the lymph nodes in the neck...again with normally a streptococcal species)

What would I do if i were you?
I would approach an extremely experienced vet as a matter of urgency with a "theoretical view" to
a) clinical biopsy and microbial culture to ascertain what is going on with reference to both cancerous changes and also (drug-resistiant) mcirobiological infection (Possibly with ultrasound scan by vet to assess extent of necrotic tissue)
b) extreme surgical debridement of the infected/necrotising/dead tissue with a view to reducing back to healthy tissue and then treating with flushing and/or MEDICAL GRADE manuka honey and/or derma-gels etc as appropriate for aiding tissue and skin regeneration
c) heavy duty antibiotics/anti-fungals as necessary
d) supportive care in terms of pain relief/syringe feeding/gut meds/dentals to prevent/deal with stasis, pain overgrowing teeth due to reduced food intake etc etc

Practically however, the above theoretical approach needs to be considered/assessed by both owner and vet in terms of
a) the current disposition/quality of life of the piggie concerned in terms of ability to eat, pain relief, weight loss to date, ability to withstand a GA and extensive surgery (possibly several ops)
b) whether there is sufficient healthy tissue once the necrotic tissue has been taken away in order to affect proper healing of the various wounds......skin graft my need to be considered
c) the cost of treatment to the owner.....which might reach 4 figures
d) the ability of the owner to provide 24/7 nursing and supportive care

You are clearly wanting to do everything you can for your piggie and regrettably your current vets are clearly not experienced enough to deal with this rare condtion.....(However I can;t believe they haven;t even offered to do a culture/biopsy in the interim?). I am also aware you have been offered lots of suggestions and help on the other forum over the last few days. However, unless and until you can identify the CAUSE by proper veterinary-ordered and approved diagnostic tests....then any opinions, theories or suggested treatments from any of us (including CCT) may be counterproductive.

The bottom line is you really need to seek the intervention of an extremely cavy-savvy vet to PROPERLY diagnose what you are dealing with and then give you the theoretical and practical options for you to decide on what further action you wish to take.

Given your location -
Firstly I would suggest ringing Crab Lane vets in Harrogate and speaking to either Frances or Nigel Harcourt-Brown.....Frances is the leading UK vet on rabbit medicine and surgery ..and has co-authored one of the definitive medical text books on rabbit and rodent medicine/diseases.......she may be sufficiently interested to want to help or suggest someone more appropriate
http://www.crablanevets.co.uk/our-practice/veterinary-surgeons/

If that doesn;t work, I suggest you approach Aiden Rafferty who is very good with piggies (and ask for samples to go to Chester Zoo for analysis as they are mor ehtorugh and test for more things than the "routine" vet pathology entres normally used).
Ashleigh Veterinary Centre
Aidan Raftery
221 Upper Chorlton Road
Manchester
Lancashire M16 0DE
0161 881 6868

I'm so sorry you and your piggie are experiencing this situation...it's a piggie owner's worst nightmare. I think you have done extremely well to get the improvement on the wounds that you have....however I do not think you can realistically give more "internet-suggested treatments unless and until you have a properly diagnosed cause.

HTH - if you want a chat then PM me for my phone number
x

For information: my background is two degrees and a further higher degree in mcirobiology and immunology. My 4year (PhD) research degree was on a nasty tropical disease that causes suppurating necrotising wounds in humans and rodents (so I am well-aware of how bad an infectious wound can become whilst still not actually being serious enough to merit euthanisia)
x
 
JessieB said:
We can get piggy in to see a specialist tomorrow if Trudy agrees. We're waiting for a response from her.

I hate seeing piggies without hope. If we can give piggy a chance by seeing an experienced vet tomorrow then I think it is worth doing.
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Hi Jessie
I realise you are wanting to help Trudy but could you please define "specialist"? Because from what I understand on the "other forum" your suggested option is to see Vedra/CCT.?

I recognise CCT do an awful lot for piggies with "mainstream" problems that have been incorrectly diagnosed/treated by inexperienced vets.
HOWEVER - ...I believe it would be a waste of time and valuable resources for both the owner and piggie concerned in this case to concentrate their available efforts on visiing CCT...as opposed to trying to contact the vets I have mentoned in my previous post.

This piggie is not "without hope"...But they DO need an extremely specialised and experienced vet together with "over and above" normal clinical diagnostics...and over and above supportive care...

x
 
I do hope Trudy can get the correct treatment for her young guinea pig. I found the thread on the other guinea pig forum as I was drawn in by the posts on this forum. Trudy has done all she can to treat her guinea pig. She must be so stressed and concerned about what to do next.
 
I am keeping my fingers very firmly crossed that @trudy2995 can get her piggy to one of your recommended vets, @Pebble, so she is in the best possible of hands and an appropriate treatment can hopefully be worked out.

This is clearly not a case for guess work by amateurs (certainly not for me); it is not even a case for a normal vet. I am glad that you have been able to come on and post despite it being a weekend, Pebble.
 
So sorry not been getting notifications on here about posts either.
And sorry if some were offended by the pics on the other group, but I was asked by the moderator to send her some and she uploaded them .

I do not feel that she has reached the end of her life yet, to have her pts. Has she is eating, running about, grooming etc. And apart from her face is otherwise well.
And if you could see beyond the photo's when she is running about the house and having me chase her. Whistling when she hears the bag of grass coming you may think otherwise. Like Pebbles mentions Fudgey is possibly less affected by the condition than perhaps the people that look at the photos.
I have put her on metacam even though the vet said she didnt need it , and has been on it all along.
She is on the itrafungol too.
I do have tramodol at home too if anyone knows the dose please from the rabbits which is still indate?
I have taken in and rescued guinea pigs since the 90's, and had loads over the years (not intentional but word got around and everyone started bringing unwanted piggy's to me lol) So know when it is time to say goodbye and not let them suffer.
. Fudgey was a 9 month old unwanted guinea I took in last year.
It is just not helping I'm off work ill at the moment with flu, I was prescribed antibiotics last week to which I've been allergic to, and can't eat anything without it going straight through me. And had a bad angina attack on Friday too. So been poorly too.
I know people will say you shouldn't have animals if you cannot afford them , but this year I've spent £100's and £100's on vet bills. I've spent over £200 on Fudgey alone up to now. A builder has left me with no windows in and the house like a building site after ripping me off for £3k and disapearing. I've had a nightmare lately car got bumped, sold cockerels instead of hens and having trouble about them, the dog has been ill, three guinea's with abcess's, one with uri all needing ongoing vet treatment etc. But I just haven't got the four figure number suggested earlier, I so wish I had as I hate seeing any animal ill. But also I wasn't expecting all the other expenses occured due to no fault of my own.
I've ordered online the things Vedra has suggested and waiting their arrival to try.

Thank you for everyone's advice and help I do appreciate you all honestly.
I tried to contact back the lady who offered to take Fudgey to Vedra but got no reply. And this morning when I tried to get online the internet was down until this afternoon and I had no phone numbers to contact people unfortunately.
And thank you Pebbles. I appreciate your help and advice. I have been to Frances Harcourt Brown before with rabbits and she is the best. But I think she had to give up practicing as she herself was really ill. And after visiting the surgery with another rabbit and seeing another vet there. The vet said she was ok even though ~I argued otherwise. On getting her home and out of the car she dropped dead the poor girl.

I'm interested regarding the cervical lymphadenitis that you suggested Pebbles please.
At first I suggested I thought her gland was up at the begining but the vet dismissed this . Now it does make me wonder of that was the start of things.

How do I pm you on here?
Thank you everyone xx
 
You make a pm by clicking on some bodies name then start a conversation. Please don't think anybody was offended by the pictures. It was just so sad to see. I'm so sorry for all you are going through and being ill too. You must be going through total hell. I just wish I could help you. You clearly love little Fudge so much and you are doing a wonderful job with her. I wish you both lots of luck and love. I have been following your story and wishing her well.
 
trudy2995 said:
So sorry not been getting notifications on here about posts either.
And sorry if some were offended by the pics on the other group, but I was asked by the moderator to send her some and she uploaded them .

I do not feel that she has reached the end of her life yet, to have her pts. Has she is eating, running about, grooming etc. And apart from her face is otherwise well.
And if you could see beyond the photo's when she is running about the house and having me chase her. Whistling when she hears the bag of grass coming you may think otherwise. Like Pebbles mentions Fudgey is possibly less affected by the condition than perhaps the people that look at the photos.
I have put her on metacam even though the vet said she didnt need it , and has been on it all along.
She is on the itrafungol too.
I do have tramodol at home too if anyone knows the dose please from the rabbits which is still indate?
I have taken in and rescued guinea pigs since the 90's, and had loads over the years (not intentional but word got around and everyone started bringing unwanted piggy's to me lol) So know when it is time to say goodbye and not let them suffer.
. Fudgey was a 9 month old unwanted guinea I took in last year.
It is just not helping I'm off work ill at the moment with flu, I was prescribed antibiotics last week to which I've been allergic to, and can't eat anything without it going straight through me. And had a bad angina attack on Friday too. So been poorly too.
I know people will say you shouldn't have animals if you cannot afford them , but this year I've spent £100's and £100's on vet bills. I've spent over £200 on Fudgey alone up to now. A builder has left me with no windows in and the house like a building site after ripping me off for £3k and disapearing. I've had a nightmare lately car got bumped, sold cockerels instead of hens and having trouble about them, the dog has been ill, three guinea's with abcess's, one with uri all needing ongoing vet treatment etc. But I just haven't got the four figure number suggested earlier, I so wish I had as I hate seeing any animal ill. But also I wasn't expecting all the other expenses occured due to no fault of my own.
I've ordered online the things Vedra has suggested and waiting their arrival to try.

Thank you for everyone's advice and help I do appreciate you all honestly.
I tried to contact back the lady who offered to take Fudgey to Vedra but got no reply. And this morning when I tried to get online the internet was down until this afternoon and I had no phone numbers to contact people unfortunately.
And thank you Pebbles. I appreciate your help and advice. I have been to Frances Harcourt Brown before with rabbits and she is the best. But I think she had to give up practicing as she herself was really ill. And after visiting the surgery with another rabbit and seeing another vet there. The vet said she was ok even though ~I argued otherwise. On getting her home and out of the car she dropped dead the poor girl.

I'm interested regarding the cervical lymphadenitis that you suggested Pebbles please.
At first I suggested I thought her gland was up at the begining but the vet dismissed this . Now it does make me wonder of that was the start of things.

How do I pm you on here?
Thank you everyone xx
Click to expand...

You can message by clicking on the envelope icon on the right of the top bar.

PS: All I had to go on was your initial post, which haven't given us on here enough to judge on except that she needs more expert help than any but the most medically experienced people can give. I am very sorry that you are having such a rough time.
 
I didn't want to read and run. I feel so sorry for you, I wish I lived nearer and could help you. Wishing you all the best wishes and support I can, you are doing an amazing job, your fur babies are so lucky to have you xx
 
yep she is still her mischievous self. I have her on my knee at the mo, and although she can pick up the grass and dandelions herself she keeps nudging me and rattling the bag as to say next piece please to be hand fed! funny even though they haver cabbage spinach, kale, parrsley, dill lettuce and a fruit tray....melon, cucumber, tomatoes, peppers apples. pears. The free food allways taste better to them. xx
 
Bless you both, I really am rooting for both of you, I hope the pair of you get well soon. Glad to hear she's still being her usual self and demanding food :') x
 
Sorry I wasn't clear enough. The specialist vet that was available today was Vedra's vet. We only had the window today when they were available together and able to see piggy.

When I talk of a specialist vet I mean a really experienced vet who is known to the piggy community. I've battled with bad vets prescribing penicillin. I've battled with knowledgeable vets performing bad dentals. I've battled to keep my pig alive twice now. I've managed it by finding vets with the right skills, and the wonderful Debbie at TEAS. This year I've used a combination of 3 vets, depending on the issues we're facing. My pig will travel 500 miles for dental work with Simon, but less than a mile for a hay poke ulcer.

I have degree level understanding of Biology. While I'm no-where near as educated as Pebbles, I am able to research and educate myself. I'm very interested in stones and calcium and can usually be found with my head in some random papers I've found online.

My big gripe is finding the right vet to get diagnosis. Without correct diagnosis more harm than good could be done. My pig suffered for a year with recurring UTIs which led to a stone. I had diagnosis of corynebacterium infection by culture (x-rays clear), but my vet was so useless that they hadn't thought to test for Septrin. I was offered Penicillin or PTS, for a Urine Infection!

I've struggled to the point of insanity while trying to find the right vets for the job. I don't want others to struggle and their pigs to suffer like mine did.
 
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