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Could This Be A Dental Problem? Or Gut Issues?

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HFJ

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One of our GPs hasn't been quite right for the past few days and it would be great to have a second opinion on what the problem might be....

On Tuesday night we noticed that he wasn't looking very happy at all. He wasn't moving around very well, was squeaking a bit like he was in pain and was off his food. We thought maybe he'd hurt a leg or something. He was looking a bit brighter on Wednesday morning - was moving round a bit more easily - but I still took him to the vet. The vet checked him over - there was nothing wrong with his legs but his stomach sounded watery. She couldn't see his back teeth very well but though they looked a tiny bit sharp but nothing major and suggested we could get them filed under a GA if we wanted. She gave us some Fibredex and suggested we keep an eye on him.

He was a bit better the next day but still not 100% so I took him back. Still nothing obviously wrong but we decided to hold off the dental work due to the risks and to continue monitoring him.

So for the past few days he has seemed kind of ok but still not 100%. Definitely better than the Tuesday and not getting obviously worse. He is eating grass enthusiastically but seems to struggle with veg and it takes him longer than usual to eat it, but he gets there eventually. He has been drinking regularly and I've also seen him eat hay today but I haven't seen him eat any pellets. We've also been giving him a bit of the powdered food from the vet plus the Fibredex.

So I don't know what to think really. The fact that he is eating makes me think it might not be a dental issue. The other thing that's crossed my mind is that he was being boarded until last Sunday and the lady looking after them said they'd been out on the grass all day. They don't get so much grass time at home so maybe this affected him? He was eating fine Sunday/Monday though.

If anyone has any thoughts I'd be grateful. We're happy to take him back to the vet/have the dental treatment but I don't want to put him through this unnecessarily.

Thanks!
 
Hi, Welcome to the forum. Could you update your profile to include your location this means we can tailor any advice to the area you live in

It sounds like dental issues may be at play here? They can be the cause or get set off by a piggy not eating as much. Piggies teeth constantly grow and are worn down by eating things especially hay. But some piggies may be susceptible to dental issues. We have had 2 dental piggies and one of our current girls is having issues at moment. Luckily we as a forum have a great deal of knowledge with it and the Lady who owns this forum runs a Guinea Pig Dental Sanctuary, so we will do our best to help support you and your piggy.

Can I just ask a few things.

1. Do you weigh him regularly, if so have you noticed any change in weight. Weight loss is a great indicator of things going on. If you aren't weighing please start doing this straight away so you have a weight ot work off. This video shows how..


2. When you say he is struggling with veg this would certainly set my alarm bells ringing at dental issues.. Is he over chewing and masticating with his mouth? Having any difficulty picking up food? Or dropping it?

3. How is he eating hay?

The Fibreplex is a probiotic and fibre supplement that is normally given to help firm up poo's. What is the powdered food it it something like critical care that you make up and syringe him. What's your little ones name by the way

Lee
 
Hi. Thanks for your reply. We're in Suffolk and our GP's name is Brownie.

We haven't weighed him, although the vet did last week. The trouble is we don't have any digital scales to put him on. The only suitable thing I can think of are our luggage scales but we'd have to put him in a bag to do it! I guess I could put a shoe box in a bag and sit him in that?

It's the veg thing that's the oddest part. He sniffs at it, has a nibble, turns it over, walks away, comes back etc. Sometimes he does settle down and eat a reasonable amount but other times he gives up and starts looking around for something else.

He was eating hay fairly normally earlier by picking up one end and chewing to the other.

The powdered food is Recovery Plus.

He's still washing himself and has been chewing on cardboard tubes.

Poo-wise, we didn't see any sign of any for a couple of days but he seems to be producing soft ones occasionally now.

Thanks again.
 
Luggage scales probably wouldn't do the job, digital ones are fairly cheap in either Argos or Asda though and are fab for piggy weighing - not to mention cake making :)

It does sound dentally to me, especially the interest in food and the struggling, sounds like a pain response. I would suggest definitely getting Brownie's teeth looked at ideally by a vet experienced in dental work, which your vet may be of course. We have a recommended vet locator here http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/pages/guinea-pig-vet-locator/

It may be worth speaking to the vet about some pain relief such as metacam this may make him feel more able to eat and is a must after dental work in my experience. Please keep up with the recovery food this will be supplementing anything he is missing out on.

The poo thing is worrying but adds up to less food going in, when you see the vet please mention this... it would link into the watery sounding stomach. Piggies tummies always need food going through to avoid gut statis. The vet can prescribe a gut stimulant such as emeprid (meatchlopromide) to help push things through and the poo keep coming.

Please keep up with the syringe feeds and get back to your vets. Maybe worth seeing if they could do a dental with a whiff of gas to knock them out rather they a full GA, some vets will do this. We have had piggies received dental under a full GA in the past without any issue though.

It sounds dental related to me and am tagging in our health experts
@Pebble
@furryfriends Excellent Adventure Sanctuary
@helen105281
@Elwickcavies
 
Hello and welcome to the forum. I deal with lots of dental piggies here at The Excellent Adventure Sanctuary, and this doesn't sound typically dental to me. The things he is able to eat, i.e. hay, grass etc would cause problems if it was a dental issue, so I am thinking this is more gut related, and he is just not fancying certain things. I am concerned that if your vet does anything to the teeth a dental problem could be caused rather than cured. How guinea pig savvy is your vet? I would suggest you get some digital kitchen scales. They really aren't expensive, but such a useful tool for monitoring your piggies health and wellbeing.
 
Thanks Debbie :)
 
There might be a dental issue developing but I agree with FF that it is probably not the primary cause and that maybe other things should be considered before "resorting" to a dental.

The primary cause is pain/discomfort....but what is causing the pain/discomfort that stopped him eating his full quota of fibre......and how long has it been going on? More on that later

As a result of the pain he has not been taking in as much fibre as he should, his teeth are not getting ground down properly so his incisors "might be" overgrowing (hence possibly why he now can't pick up veggies but will eat grass) , his gut is reacting to the lack of fibre by getting gassy and not moving properly, pain is increasing, food intake is decreasing further etc etc and you are now in the vicious cycle of "gut vs dental issues". The two are interlinked but identifying and separating "cause" from "effect" is very difficult in piggies. Ultimately his poo output will start to slow down and he will start to lose weight.

I "suspect" that the initial trigger for the current clinical symptoms may have been too much grass (possibly but not probably on an already dysfunctional tummy) whilst boarding which caused (48hours later) the symptoms of a mild bloat. That would account for his not moving around on the tuesday and the vet hearing watery tummy sounds on wednesday. However it may be he already had a developing condition causing the pain/gradual reduction in food intake and reactive tummy to create the current situation. The underlying condition may have been grumbling away completely un-noticed until now.....because piggies are very good at hiding what is wrong with them until the last moment!

So the initial condition may be urinary or respiratory issues or something else - and that will need to be identified at some point.

Currently however the most important things are to stabilise and offer supportive care for his current symptoms whilst then determining what may have caused this all in the first place.

The bottom line therefore at this moment is to weigh daily, keep the food going in and poo coming out.

Some suggestions:
a) syringe feed mushed up pellets or critical care (or see if he will eat out of a bowl). He will need approx 20-30ml every 4-6hours assuming he is happy to continue eating some hay and grass (more if not)
b) provide plenty of fine meadow hay if he will still eat that but consider restricting veggies to finely sliced cucumber and carrot batons, some fresh grass, finely shredded dandelion leaves, fresh herbs such as parsley, cilantro, dill and basil (last is antiseptic). This will limit the possibility of a bloat episode and is still presented in a form he can currently eat
c) if there is still watery sounds coming from the stomach or his poos become tiny/develop tails/stop altogether (make sure you can effectively monitor his daily poo output) then ask the vet for vet motility meds (cisapride, emeprid or metoclopromide and zantac/ranitidine)
d) if he is still lively and strong and your vet demands it, then consider an oral exam (to rule-out/rule-in dental/fungal etc) albeit in the full knowledge that without dealing with the original cause, you may keep repeating this process until this whole cycle is resolved. If you can get to Simon Maddock at Cat and Rabbit in Northampton for a conscious oral exam this would be better than having one under GA. However providing you have a good cavy savvy vet then an oral exam/dental under GA should be OK....but whilst under the GA - encourage the vet to Xray to look for other underlying issues.
e) once he is stabilised in terms of food intake/poo output you will need to identify the original cause. An Xray to check for urinary, heart, dental and other issues would be the first port of call....which is normally done under GA (hence my suggestion in (d) above as it provides an option for both treatment and diagnosis with only one GA). also check ears for signs of middle ear infection and jaw/tooth roots for possible abcesses.

HTH
x
 
Thanks for the replies. I have managed to weigh him using our old-fashioned balance scales by putting him in his travel box and weighing them together (and taking off the weight of the box). His weight today is 1.220kg and on Wednesday the vet said he weighed 1.16 kg. I guess different scales can be calibrated differently but I'm hoping this means he hasn't lost a significant amount of weight. I'll keep on weighing him each day and monitor for any changes.
 
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