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Dental Dental - nervous of diagnosis

BlueBird

BlueBird

Junior Guinea Pig
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Nottingham, UK
Hi there,

So one of our pigs has developed a lump under his chin. It's happened pretty quickly, his behaviour hasn't visibly changed. He is in no apparent pain and is eating normally.

I took him to the vet expecting an abscess but the vet came out without a clear diagnosis. She explained that she thinks it has something to do with his teeth not getting ground down properly and wanted to give him an xray to see what teeth were effected. And then proceed to take the teeth out. I've now come out with an estimate and some meloxaid (anti-inflammatory).

My instincts say this is an OTT reaction and feels like other alternatives like an abscess have not been considered. (but its hard to tell. Because of covid, I wasn't allowed in the consultation room during the examination). And my vet is steering us down a very extreme way forward with life changing consequences.

Under normal circumstances, I would be looking up what is my nearest specialist guinea pig vets on this forum and travel to them for a second opinion. But the covid situation makes things difficult. I don't have a car so I'd be reliant on public transport and even if I could get there are vets even seeing new patients for second opinions?

I'm basically looking for some advice on how to proceed. My vet is good with pigs but they aren't a specialist! And given this could have a huge impact on my guineas life I want to be 100% sure and I feel as if this has gone from 1 to 100 without going through 2-99. But of course I'm not a vet and I'm not a guinea pig expert.
 
BlueBird said:
Hi there,

So one of our pigs has developed a lump under his chin. It's happened pretty quickly, his behaviour hasn't visibly changed. He is in no apparent pain and is eating normally.

I took him to the vet expecting an abscess but the vet came out without a clear diagnosis. She explained that she thinks it has something to do with his teeth not getting ground down properly and wanted to give him an xray to see what teeth were effected. And then proceed to take the teeth out. I've now come out with an estimate and some meloxaid (anti-inflammatory).

My instincts say this is an OTT reaction and feels like other alternatives like an abscess have not been considered. (but its hard to tell. Because of covid, I wasn't allowed in the consultation room during the examination). And my vet is steering us down a very extreme way forward with life changing consequences.

Under normal circumstances, I would be looking up what is my nearest specialist guinea pig vets on this forum and travel to them for a second opinion. But the covid situation makes things difficult. I don't have a car so I'd be reliant on public transport and even if I could get there are vets even seeing new patients for second opinions?

I'm basically looking for some advice on how to proceed. My vet is good with pigs but they aren't a specialist! And given this could have a huge impact on my guineas life I want to be 100% sure and I feel as if this has gone from 1 to 100 without going through 2-99. But of course I'm not a vet and I'm not a guinea pig expert.
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Hi!

If you could get to either Matlock to see Ellie Whitehead (who is taking on consultations again since the 27th May) or Simon Maddock in Northampton, then you are seeing the two best piggy vets in wider East Midlands. Simon is the most experienced piggy dental vet who still sees guinea pigs from all over the country. Ellie specialises in seeing only guinea pigs; she has been to see Simon and how he does his dentals.
Ellie Whitehead: The Guinea Pig Vet
Simon Maddock: Cat and Rabbit Care Clinic | Northlands Vets

I agree with your assessment of your own vet's proposal. Teeth should only be removed if there is no other option left.

@furryfriends (TEAS)
 
A lot here in the forum have gone to see Simon Maddock at Cat & Rabbit Care Clinic in Northampton. He is by far the best vet when it comes to dental issues. My piggies go to him (and his wife Kim Maddock) and they are our main vet, even if we live in North Wales.

Removing the tooth is not the first solution in cases like this. The abscess is most probably the one causing the issue in the first place, so that's the one needed to be dealt with first. I would honestly recommend getting a second opinion from a guinea savy vet.
 
Luckily you are near Simon Maddock at the Cat and Rabbit Clinic in Northampton. he won’t need costly X-rays to tell you what’s wrong with your piggies teeth, he also would not remove teeth unless there was excruciating circumstances. He is the piggie dentist of choice in this country, I travel from Cornwall to see Simon with my dental piggie Ted, I can highly recommended him, he is amazing x he is very reasonably priced too as most of his dental work is done consciously
 
Thank you all for your encouragement. You've made me feel better about my gut instinct and I felt like this was a matter for the cat and rabbit clinic in Northampton. (I keep an eye of where all you gurus go for situations like these). I was paranoid I was being selfish because I'd rather not have a guinea pig with dental problems. I don't think I have to Expertise. I've gone away and had a good cry and we'll cross the dental problems bridge if and when we get to it.

Thank you all for your support. I'll get on the phone to them ASAP.
 
BlueBird said:
Thank you all for your encouragement. You've made me feel better about my gut instinct and I felt like this was a matter for the cat and rabbit clinic in Northampton. (I keep an eye of where all you gurus go for situations like these). I was paranoid I was being selfish because I'd rather not have a guinea pig with dental problems. I don't think I have to Expertise. I've gone away and had a good cry and we'll cross the dental problems bridge if and when we get to it.

Thank you all for your support. I'll get on the phone to them ASAP.
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You won’t be disappointed. It’s a worrying time for you but Simon is very experienced with all aspects of dental issues, hope it all goes well x Let us all know how you get on x
 
Hi,. I've just today done a 480 mile round trip to see Simon at the cat and rabbit care clinic in Northampton, I recommend highly.
 
I've just phoned them. Their earliest appointment is next Friday with a "she" so I assume this is Kim Maddock rather than Simon. Do you guys think this is a problem Simon would be better looking at or does Kim have enough expertise?
 
Kim is also great when it comes to dental, but obviously Simon has the edge since he has mastered it by doing it for so long. What I can say about Kim though is she's the best with giving the piggy an MOT (as what my hubby calls it). She would check everything that needs to be checked in your piggy, i.e. eyes, ears, nose, weight, stomach, genital, listen to chest (if you ask), etc. If we can't figure out what's wrong with our piggy, we usually book with Kim because she is very thorough.
 
They are both very good and experienced piggie vets. Simon has more experience as he has done dentals for years but Kim is very good at dentals/diagnostics too and very experienced so either really x
 
So I've got a little update on Harvey. Harvey is from Potteries GPR (formerly Fanta). So I definitely feel pressure to look after him! I know his former parents are watching. (teehee). Luckily for him, he has been blessed with good health up until now.

He's our little happy chappy. Zooming about the cage and pop corning. But he really doesn't enjoy handling, so I try to leave the cuddles to his wives and leave him to his own devices mostly. He does enjoy (I think he's got really weird poker face about it) chin rubs on his own four paws. Hence how we found this chin lump.

He's being really brave. Showing no signs of discomfort at all. His weight at the last weigh in was stable. He's still keen for food and begs for veggies with his wives. I've even been testing him with the odd pellet to see whether hard foods hurt him and he takes them no problem bless him.

But the lump is very quick growing. When we discovered it last Thursday it was somewhere between Chickpea and cherry sized and is now large grape sized in less than a week. I reckon it will have doubled its size by the time we get to the vets. We go to see Kim Maddock in Northampton tomorrow and quite frankly it can't come soon enough.

Hopefully it's nothing too sinister that can be sorted out then and there cause I just want this sorted ASAP for Harvey's sake. Last week you couldn't really tell he had a lump at all just by looking at him but he's getting a really wonky face now bless him.

Due to its location and the speed of its growth I suspect an abscess rather than something more serious like cancer. Hopefully he can get swift treatment tomorrow rather than just a diagnosis. Not only because Northampton is a bit difficult for me to get to (I'm carless. I've hired a car for tomorrow but without one it would take me 3 buses, a train and over 3hrs to get there) but more importantly because this is a horrible fast growing "mass" thats already waited a week for treatment I don't really want to wait until the other side of the weekend. Fingers crossed that this growth hasn't knocked all his teeth out of whack and its a one op kind of fix.

We all love pictures so here's a few of Harvey last night. Keep your paws crossed for a swift treatment tomorrow.
DSC_0680.webp
"Hello forum! I'm Harvey. Hooman says I'm unwell but I'm not letting that stop me. I still like to politely ask the hooman for veg from the big white magic veggie dispenser. (My Wife Belle isn't so polite. She protests delays by bar biting!). I'm still munching away at the yummy hay she leaves us and I'll run to the palace gates for pellets (need to run before the wives eat them all!)"

DSC_0682.webp DSC_0683.webp
"Last night Hooman got me out to check my chin lump and took a picture this time. She says my face is pretty wonky now on my ginger side. I don't like getting taken out of my palace. It's a bit scary and I don't like cuddles cause my fuzzy do gets messed up. (Do you not know how long it takes me to get it looking this good?!) I think I might like chin rubs but I'm not sure. They feel nice but I don't think I like the hooman's scary hands on MY side of the palace gates! But no chin rubs right now cause it feels weird. At least Hooman gave me the yummy medicine to make up for taking me out to mess with my lump. But I'd prefer the hooman leave me alone and to give me the medicine inside my palace - preferably when I'm snoozing in bed. Oh and veggies on demand! Can't forget those!

Excuse, the nails. I'm due a pawdicure but I've told the Hooman her outside palace time with me is all used up by messing with my chin. I go in a scary car ride tomorrow to see those people who smell weird and took away my unmentionables! I REALLY don't like them and I get a bit panicky even if it's not me who's getting prodded by them but Belle is coming with me to hold my paw. She is a wonderpig! She doesn't get frightened of anything!"
 
Wishing you and Harvey all the very best tomorrow. You are in the best hands, I almost put my Gibson through an operation he didn't need and he might not have made it through before visiting Northampton.
Keep us updated!
 
Wiebke said:
Hi!

If you could get to either Matlock to see Ellie Whitehead (who is taking on consultations again since the 27th May) or Simon Maddock in Northampton, then you are seeing the two best piggy vets in wider East Midlands. Simon is the most experienced piggy dental vet who still sees guinea pigs from all over the country. Ellie specialises in seeing only guinea pigs; she has been to see Simon and how he does his dentals.
Ellie Whitehead: The Guinea Pig Vet
Simon Maddock: Cat and Rabbit Care Clinic | Northlands Vets

I agree with your assessment of your own vet's proposal. Teeth should only be removed if there is no other option left.

@furryfriends (TEAS)
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I know experiences are subjective, but I just wanted to write that I took my pig, Little, to see Ellie about two or three months ago after suspecting a dental problem as I don’t feel like she should be recommended so much when it comes to dental treatment.
Little had completely stopped eating or drinking entirely. Ellie confirmed dental issue and filed his back teeth and his incisors. She filed his incisors way too short and didn’t angle them either. Little still didn’t eat and it was after four weeks when the incisors grew back properly that I took him to see Simon. We had just thought the reason he still couldn’t eat or drink was now because the incisors had been messed up (I’d like to add Little also didn’t lay down to sleep at all during this time because of the pain). Taking Little to ass Simon was something that saved his life. Little had a jaw abscesses which had burst up under his bottom left incisor and infected the tooth root. He had to have emergency surgery by Simon who said he had never seen such pressure under an incisor like he did when he removed Little’s tooth, the pus just exploded out of the socket - so much so there wasn’t actually really any pus left inside the original abscess socket in his jaw. Ellie had missed all of this entirely and subjected Little to immense pain when she burred down that incisor. Because the incisors weren’t filed right, we then thought that was the problem and then Little was subjected to another month of absolute agony, one that nearly cost him his life. Because of the time we waited to see Simon due to his incisors, the tooth root became infected and now his tooth will never grow back. He’s doing amazing now, 6 weeks on. However, I, personally, wouldn’t recommend Ellie for dentals given my experience. I have also learned since then that the extent of Ellie’s training at the Cat and Rabbit Clinic was watching Kim perform a conscious dental and that was it. Had I known that, i wouldn’t have stepped foot through the door with suspected dental problem.
I’m not saying Ellie isn’t good for other things, but I would never recommend her for dentals.
 
Good luck! We travelled from Barnsley to see Simon on Tuesday. I also always hoped to never have a pig with dental problems. It’s the only thing I never wanted, I ended up with two! The thing that makes owning dental piggies easier is Simon as I don’t have to worry about the pigs. He’s awesome with abscesses too. Kim is also great. The love and care they both have for pigs is really apparent during appointments. I know you won’t see them physically, but they interact with the pigs in a way no other vet has in my experience
 
Little Harvey will be in good hands with Kim and hope you can get this lump sorted very quickly. Harvey’s such a handsome chap, good luck for tomorrow 💕
 
I’m sure the treatment will be carried out tomorrow. However, just to make you aware, I offer boarding, through my pet care business, for long distance clients of Cat and Rabbit Clinic, at very reasonable prices. This includes any supportive care needed, as well as transport to appointments, in addition to all fresh food and hay 😊
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
I’m sure the treatment will be carried out tomorrow. However, just to make you aware, I offer boarding, through my pet care business, for long distance clients of Cat and Rabbit Clinic, at very reasonable prices. This includes any supportive care needed, as well as transport to appointments, in addition to all fresh food and hay 😊
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Oh @furryfriends (TEAS)! This is a brilliant and very sweet offer. I hope poor Harvey doesn't have to have multiple trips but if it does come to that we may take you up on it. Thank you so much! I assume you'd take the three of my pigs so no one gets lonely or is it OK for Harvey to come on his own temporarily? I don't want anyone to be lonely.
 
Hi there,

So Harvey is safely delivered to northlands and the patient before him mum has just collected them. Now I've got the horrible wait in the car park.

Trouble with driving with animals on your own is you can't stop at services for a wee. Luckily they were nice enough to let me use there's lol. I was very careful. Face covering on soaped the door handle when I wash my hands, paper towel to open the door etc. So embarrassing but when you've got to go you got to go. Lol.

P. S. The waiting is definitely the worst part!
 
BlueBird said:
Hi there,

So Harvey is safely delivered to northlands and the patient before him mum has just collected them. Now I've got the horrible wait in the car park.

Trouble with driving with animals on your own is you can't stop at services for a wee. Luckily they were nice enough to let me use there's lol. I was very careful. Face covering on soaped the door handle when I wash my hands, paper towel to open the door etc. So embarrassing but when you've got to go you got to go. Lol.

P. S. The waiting is definitely the worst part!
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Hope it all goes well for the little chap x
 
We're waiting with you. Hope it all goes well for him
 
Hi guys!

So another update. Harvey went to Kim and she looked at his teeth all seem pretty healthy and the abscess was likely to be a root abscess of one of his bottom incisors (Silver lining if he does end up having a tooth out at least its not the awkward to see and get to ones. Looking at his chin Kim said it seemed pretty superficial (basically the gist was it could have been much worse). She wanted to cut it out and "marsupialise" it but unfortunately, it would need GA and we'd arrived too late for a full operation. Since it had already waited a week Kim suggested lancing it but because guinea pig pus was usually pretty cheesy she wasn't sure how much she could get out but she'd try her best.

Happy news! When Kim lanced it it turned out the pus was pretty liquidy so she could get a good rinse deep into the wound. Whoop! She was actually getting pretty nerdy on the phone talking about bacteria cultures bless her. So clearly she was pretty happy with how its gone. I've now come home with the heavy duty anti-biotic that smells like bananas and he's due back for another good old clear out on Tuesday morning (so another car rental XD good job I have lots of overtime from my job to take back in lieu). Hopefully the drugs will have done it's job and there's no surgery needed but I guess that depends on how well I do my job.

I've now got to get his chin a good "scrub" (as Kim put it) with a soaking wet cotton wool and try and stop the capsule from sticking together and keep the pus contents thin(?) small (?) so the Anti-biotics can penetrate properly. While Kim hasn't ruled out taking his teeth out if this problem is recurring problem but at least for now it all looks positive.

Do you guys have any recommendations on abscess capsule squidge technique?

We got home just in time for tea so the journey and the stress of the day is obviously forgotten. Kim told me Harvey was really brave during the mini-op bless him but he definitely looks very strange with the shaved chin. Clearly the experience hasn't soured his appetite but both he and Belle are both knackered. Feel a bit sorry for Belle. Nap-time ruined by a car journey then and stuck in a box with her husboar with a very stinky wound for an hour and a half lol. But she's good when her furmily is unwell even if it was a bit tiring. lol

DSC_0692.JPGDSC_0691.JPG
 
BlueBird said:
Hi guys!

So another update. Harvey went to Kim and she looked at his teeth all seem pretty healthy and the abscess was likely to be a root abscess of one of his bottom incisors (Silver lining if he does end up having a tooth out at least its not the awkward to see and get to ones. Looking at his chin Kim said it seemed pretty superficial (basically the gist was it could have been much worse). She wanted to cut it out and "marsupialise" it but unfortunately, it would need GA and we'd arrived too late for a full operation. Since it had already waited a week Kim suggested lancing it but because guinea pig pus was usually pretty cheesy she wasn't sure how much she could get out but she'd try her best.

Happy news! When Kim lanced it it turned out the pus was pretty liquidy so she could get a good rinse deep into the wound. Whoop! She was actually getting pretty nerdy on the phone talking about bacteria cultures bless her. So clearly she was pretty happy with how its gone. I've now come home with the heavy duty anti-biotic that smells like bananas and he's due back for another good old clear out on Tuesday morning (so another car rental XD good job I have lots of overtime from my job to take back in lieu). Hopefully the drugs will have done it's job and there's no surgery needed but I guess that depends on how well I do my job.

I've now got to get his chin a good "scrub" (as Kim put it) with a soaking wet cotton wool and try and stop the capsule from sticking together and keep the pus contents thin(?) small (?) so the Anti-biotics can penetrate properly. While Kim hasn't ruled out taking his teeth out if this problem is recurring problem but at least for now it all looks positive.

Do you guys have any recommendations on abscess capsule squidge technique?

We got home just in time for tea so the journey and the stress of the day is obviously forgotten. Kim told me Harvey was really brave during the mini-op bless him but he definitely looks very strange with the shaved chin. Clearly the experience hasn't soured his appetite but both he and Belle are both knackered. Feel a bit sorry for Belle. Nap-time ruined by a car journey then and stuck in a box with her husboar with a very stinky wound for an hour and a half lol. But she's good when her furmily is unwell even if it was a bit tiring. lol

View attachment 144559View attachment 144560
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Aw, that sounds pretty positive news for Harvey. keep that abscess open and hope those antibiotics kick in really soon X
 
The best advice I can give you is, use flat cotton wool pads and as Kim said, give it a really firm scrub, a few times a day. If you start to feel it refilling then just squeeze the swelling and the pus should come out. It sounds like it should be a fairly straightforward one to deal with and once the antibiotics kick in, it should resolve fairly quickly.
 
So this morning was the first chin scrub. Which broke my heart. Cause at first I was really firm and I obviously hurt him cause he squealled. My husband being even more attached to our fur babies than I did not find it fun. Kim did say I needed to be firm and she mentioned that it was a lot easier doing that with patients than her own pets because you don't want to hurt them.

There was a sickening pop at some point and there was some bloody pus that came out. I know I had hit gold as it were. Not because Harvey has squealled but because we smelt the horrible abscess smell.

I don't know whether I'm doing the right technique but I'm trying to keep the cotton still on the skin and then firmly wiggle the swelling on his chin in lots of different directions. I'm probably going to try and 'milk' it form the bottom to the top where the wound is this afternoon to make sure in being thorough. Not a nice task in many ways.

It's fair to say Harvey's probably going to be scared and frightened of us during this time. So I don't think he's going to get over his fear of handling any time soon. Bless him and that's OK. I don't need cuddles off him. So long as he comes to say hello at the bars
 
BlueBird said:
So this morning was the first chin scrub. Which broke my heart. Cause at first I was really firm and I obviously hurt him cause he squealled. My husband being even more attached to our fur babies than I did not find it fun. Kim did say I needed to be firm and she mentioned that it was a lot easier doing that with patients than her own pets because you don't want to hurt them.

There was a sickening pop at some point and there was some bloody pus that came out. I know I had hit gold as it were. Not because Harvey has squealled but because we smelt the horrible abscess smell.

I don't know whether I'm doing the right technique but I'm trying to keep the cotton still on the skin and then firmly wiggle the swelling on his chin in lots of different directions. I'm probably going to try and 'milk' it form the bottom to the top where the wound is this afternoon to make sure in being thorough. Not a nice task in many ways.

It's fair to say Harvey's probably going to be scared and frightened of us during this time. So I don't think he's going to get over his fear of handling any time soon. Bless him and that's OK. I don't need cuddles off him. So long as he comes to say hello at the bars
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You're doing an amazing job! By the end of this, you will be able to take over my 'abscess queen' crown! I know it's horrible to hear them squeal but it's for their own good and it will soon be forgotten. I had to squeeze four abscess sites, a few times a day, on Zoltan and he hated it, but he;s forgiven me!
 
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