Experience In Hormone Therapy?

[Becky3]

Hello,

I recently posted a thread regarding our concerns for one of our sows, Dotty:
http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/aggressive-female.117010/#post-1583183

To cut a long story short, Dotty has been showing behaviour issues and hearing Wiebke's advice, we have discussed hormone therapy with our vet, who has successfully treated sows with similar issues.

Before we go down this route, I was just wondering if anyone here had experience with hormone therapy? Is there anything we need to look out for? Any serious side effects? Are there different therapies and what works best?

We might be a bit paranoid, but have recently lost one of Dotty's friends after she was given a routine injection (Convenia), which led to all sorts of complications (she also suffered from kidney stones, which we didn't know at the time). We really want to make sure we do the right thing for Dotty, so would be really grateful to hear about your experiences!

 

[helen105281]

My Terk had Chorulon injections (a total of 2 I think, though it could have been 3) a few years back as she had an ovarian tumour. If I remember correctly there were no real side effects though the injection itself seemed painful. I am not sure if this is because she had tough skin being an older pig though. I know other members have lots of experience too.

 

[LeahsPiggies]

My Pringles had the injections - she had 3 injections which were 10-12 days apart. They made no difference what soever to the size of her cyst and she ended up having to have the cyst and her ovaries surgically removed on Tuesday.

Luckily she was absolutely fine and hardly acted like anything even happened when she came home!

Obviously this isn't the case for everybody, as I have heard lots of success rates, but unfortunately it wasn't the case for us.

The actual injections did look painful but Pringles never made a sound when the needle went in, bless her

 

[Poppy'sMum]

I've had at least 3 sows that have had Chorulon jabs over the years, maybe 4 as I can't remember the exact number, all have been successfully treated & not needed spays. They are usually given 2 weeks apart & they will sometimes give a course of 3 depending on the severity. As far as I'm aware they are safe, although all meds carry a risk I have never ever heard anyone having any ill effects from them.

 

[Becky3]

Thank you so much for your advice. I feel a bit more relieved now as it sounds like a pretty straight-forward procedure. You do get worried about those little people, don't you...

When would you generally know that she'd need to get spayed instead of receiving the hormone treatment? And how long do these courses last - would she need a repeat after a certain amount of time?

 

[biscandmatt]

maisie had two injections 7days apart. we were told she would probably need another course in 6-12months. usually symptoms will return and then another course can be given, or if the symptoms are problematic, draining the cysts, or doing a spay, will be recommended.

maisie's symptoms returned five months later (pain and a uti again. she had previously had stubborn uti's which she struggled to clear) - it was recommended that she be spayed at that point as she was in pain then. unfortunately in her case, she was older and too tired to fight, and she sadly passed away. however, our aim was to get her well and strong enough for the spay, and that is most probably what we would have gone for.

just take things a stage at a time and see how she goes. she may well do well on one course, you never know.

 

[LeahsPiggies]

Thank you so much for your advice. I feel a bit more relieved now as it sounds like a pretty straight-forward procedure. You do get worried about those little people, don't you...

When would you generally know that she'd need to get spayed instead of receiving the hormone treatment? And how long do these courses last - would she need a repeat after a certain amount of time?

It is generally up to you whether you opt straight for a spay / ovary removal, but most vets will advise you do the HCG injections beforehand as obviously less risks are involved.

Depending on how many jabs she will need - you will have to take her back to recess the size of the cyst around 7 days after her last injection. The vet will then determine if the cyst has shrunk, if it's stayed the same etc and you basically go from there

 

[Becky3]

Just wanted to give you all a quick update and thank you again for your help - after quite a bit of umming and arring Dotty had her first injection this week and so far so good.

We had an xray done beforehand to make sure there wasn't anything else such as stones, and fortunately there wasn't! Her left ovarian cyst is actually much bigger than I thought and we have a feeling it's giving her some pain too. So she's going to have three injections in total and is also on some pain relief at the moment.

The vet hasn't mentioned an ovary removal yet, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed it doesn't come to this... she's no spring chicken anymore!

 

[GPTV]

My Ellie has had the chorulon injections too.
Basically she suffered with ongoing urinary tract infections &would bleed quite badly with most of them.

The vet didn't really want to keep giving antibiotics. So she had an ultrasound scan &found a walnut sized lump that she believed to be an ovarian cyst.

Ellie was about 6.5yrs old,the vet said the only option was a spay &she wasn't prepared to operate on an older piggy as it was too risky.

I researched a bit on here &suggested the jabs. The vet agreed to research it &give it a go as she hadn't had any experience of this.
Basically its a cattle hormone treatment.
I took Ellie for 2 jabs about 10-14days apart.
She squealed the place down both times &was a complete diva! They had to administer the jab in the leg-think that's why it was so painful.

That was march & we haven't had any bleeds since

No side effects otherwise. But I did have to agree to the treatment as its unlicensed on guinea furballs.

I would definitely try again &it was about £20each shot of chorulon + consultation fee.
But think my vets are very good with pricing normally. Think someone paid £50per jab on here.
Good luck with your decision. Xx

 

[Becky3]

@GPTV, it's interesting that you mentioned urinary tract infections. Dotty has been having these for around the past two years too (but we've fortunately got them under control at the moment) - can ovarian cysts and UTIs be linked? We haven't had any bleeds yet luckily, she has just been very irritable, squealing whilst weeing when not on her tablets etc.

The injection she was given on Friday was Chorulon too, around the same price you stated. There will be another two to follow.

She was in a really good mood on Saturday/Sunday, her fur was a lot softer than usual too and she even spent some time with fellow pigs on neutral ground without any incidents. On Monday however, the exact opposite - she suddenly became really aggressive when sat next two other girls and without warning lunged at them. She caught my hand when I tried to separate them, which in turn really shocked her - she's the most loving pig and would never bite us (humans).

We've not put her with anyone else since, but still really didn't like the look of her yesterday at all. She seems very worked up and her eyes look as if she's in pain, despite pain killers (Rimadyl) which we're giving her twice a day at the moment. She seems a little more uncomfortable than usual when pooing/weeing too.

Could the hormone injection have anything to do with this? Or would it be advisable to remove the ovarian cyst rather than continuing with the injections? Or is there something else that we should look into?

We're just really concerned about her....

 

[GPTV]

Ellie kept getting uti's which was what made the vet suggest an ultrasound test in the first place. I'm not sure if the vet was expecting to find a cyst, stones or sludge tho. Every time the baytril stopped her uti's kept coming back.
She has never been a moody pig tho. I think she was a bit tender &quiet for a couple of days after the jab. But I guess a honking great needle in your cute little chookie leg is gonna hurt for a day or two with the bruising

I know you said she's no spring chicken, but how old is she? as Ellie was just too old for a spay at 6.5ish.
Its all according how experienced your vet is at spaying too. As to whether I would opt for a spay.
Think I would keep going with the jabs for now &see if she improves- it may be that the jabs are having an effect on the cyst &her hormones are all over the place at the moment. Also ovarian cysts are apparently very painful in humans so check with the vet if her pain relief can be increased for a few days.
It maybe due to pain she's a bit short tempered.

Can she see &communicate with your other pigs or is she completely isolated?
If she can see the others&chat it may help her general mood&introductions when she's feeling better.

Ellie had very bad bleeding, near her last vet appt before the cyst was discovered it was vivid red blood &mainly when she pooped as opposed to weeing everything was covered in it
But thankfully like I said nothing since the second jab.

I would check with the vet it carries on &see what they recommend.

Good luck with Dotty &speedy recovery for her.
&a hug for you in stressy times.

From the girls &I
Xx

 

[Becky3]

@GPTV Well, you're right I hadn't thought about it like that, but that injection must have been quite painful and her leg could have still been sore!

What worries me is those considerable mood swings she's having. One day she is fine, the next really aggressive - at the moment she is doing okay again (fingers crossed!), but seems a little lonely.

We think she is nearly 5 years old, although with her being a rescue we're not 100% sure. She was pregnant when she arrived at the rescue (was still tiny herself and lost the babies due to the hot weather/stress, poor little girl) and she's been with us for about 4 years and 3 months.

She can still see and smell the other guineas, so at least she's not completely isolated, although I sometimes feel she must be upset as she no longer has anyone to cuddle up to (her two cage-mates died earlier this year).
We've got three C&C cages which are all next to each other and share the dividers. Hers is in the middle, so she has neighbours on both sides :-).

We'll speak to the vet tomorrow when the next injection is due... it's probably just a case of keeping on top of it and completing the full course as you said, but it's just such a worry :-(

Will let you know how she gets on & thanks again for all the kind words!

 

[Becky3]

Hello again, I just wanted to post an update on how we're getting on with Dotty.

She has had the second injection, but the vet is concerned about her mood swings and ongoing pain as the injections are not having the desired effect. He says he can feel the ovarian cysts, but normally during palpitation he would be able to move them - in our case he can't, which makes him believe that there is some kind of adhesion which is causing her to be in pain.

We agreed for her to have another injection to see if she would feel any better, but her hair is puffed up, she drinks a lot, is aggressive/acting weirdly and still grinding her teeth, although not as much as last week. She is still on Rimadyl twice a day, but we are now seriously considering spaying her to put an end to all this. Even with a third injection, the adhesion would still be causing her pain, and it's not likely to be getting better.

We had read about the flank technique that's used for spaying, but our vet says he wants to make the incision via the abdomen because he can then see all the organs, including the adhesion, and only needs to cut once rather than twice. Does anyone have experience with this? I assume it is a risky operation, but how risky is it? (She is between 4.5 - 5 years old.)

We're really interested in hearing from anyone who has had their girls spayed... do you consider the procedure to be major surgery and how long did it take for your girl to recover? How old were they at the time?

Thank you so much in advance... we need to make a decision very soon, so the more we know the better!

 

[GPTV]

it might be worth getting hold of Simon at the Northampton Cat & rabbit clinic http://www.catandrabbit.co.uk/
have a chat with him& maybe see if your vet will discuss any concerns with him as to risks & techniques for use on your little one. i know there is a vet molly varga who is also highly recommended on here but i'm afraid i can't remember her location too. have a look on the recommended vet locator & see if there are any local to you that may have lots of experience in spaying older sows, as the risks involved will be much greater than a young piggy, i would ask roughly how many spays the vet has done &make sure the one you choose has performed loads & has a high success rate!
A spay on an older piggy such as ours is very high risk i'm afraid, but there are some success stories

Sorry i can't remember - did the vet xray or ultrasound the suspected ovarian cyst to confirm it ,or could there be a possibility that it is fact something else such as a growth/tumour of some kind if it doesn't seem to be shrinking & its still causing pain&mood swings?


i have tagged some wonderfully experienced members who are knowledgeable on medical issues, hopefully some spaying advice will be available from them?
@furryfriends Excellent Adventure Sanctuary
@Pebble
@Amanda1801
@Wiebke
@Elwickcavies
@helen105281

also i think @biscandmatt , @LeahsPiggies had ovarian cyst problems & spaying experience perhaps their vets can advise also?

might be worth contacting some local rescues too &see if they can recommend any vets with spaying experience near you for advice or treatment, as some rescues probably have a higher ratio of spays done because they generally just see lots of sows with ovarian or pregnancy problems.

Sorry to hear the injections don't seem to have worked, i hope your little lady is on the mend soon. xx

 

[Becky3]

Thank you, GPTV, I really appreciate your help

As I completely forgot to mention it, I just wanted to add that we are with a very experienced vet who I believe is listed in the recommended vet section too (Rose Cottage in Sutton Weaver). Ken, who we have been with for many many years, was recommended to us by a rodentologist at the time.

We have discussed the different procedures (flank/abdominal) with him and he took an xray to verify the ovarian cysts were causing the problem. The one on her left-hand side is really quite big, so we're pretty positive this is the root of her pain. As I said, he thinks there is an adhesion that's responsible for the pain rather than the cysts themselves, which is why he would want to operate via the abdomen rather than flanks - and it does make perfect sense to us, we're just very worried about her and it would be good to hear other people's experiences.

On Saturday we decided to give her one last shot (so to speak) of the hormone injections to give them more time to work, but it very much looks like we will need to make a decision regarding the spaying because she is just not herself and it's not getting any better.

 

[Amanda1801]

I have no experience with hormone treatments, but I do have experience with spays.

One of my pigs was spayed after exploratory surgery for an unidentifiable mass picked up on a CT scan - turned out to be a huge ovarian tumour, and she had cysts associated with it too. Recovery was quick, uneventful, no complications.

I've also had another pig spayed - she had a hideous recovery. 7 weeks it took for her to recover fully to the point of eating for herself, post op infection cleared etc. This pig had similar surgery 2 years later after she had a mysterious thing prolapse from her vulva. Given her previous surgery experience, I was reluctant for her to have surgery again, but there was no option but to open her up. Turns out it was endometrial hyperplasia, she had an op to remove it (similar to a spay - abdominal surgery via a midline incision) and her recovery was textbook, no problems at all.

what I would say, is that I would want an exotics specialist operating on my pig, especially in an older pig. Chances are, an exotics vet will also have exotics trained nurses and better equipped facilities for small furries too, so well worth looking for recommendations in your area.

 

[Wiebke]

If the cyst is causing gut adhesion and is not reacting to hormone therapy, then spaying would be the best solution. Gut adhesion is excruciatingly painful. My Hywel nearly died from one when he developed one as a rather rare post neutering op complication.

Spaying is quite a major operation. My underweight Cariad sailed through her emergency spay in May 2013, courtesy of a grossly enlarged, fluid and lump filled and borderline pyometric womb plus some nasty looking cysts, but my Fflur never woke up from her op 4 1/2 years ago because my then local vets were not aware that she had a second fast growing enormous cyst and got the GA wrong. I am sure that that is not a mistake that a good operating vet would make.
It is certainly not an easy decision to make and it will be a rather anxious wait (it was for me), but if the other options won't bring her the relief from pain that she urgently needs, then you will have to make the jump in order to give her a chance at a good quality of life in the long term.

HUGS

 

[Elwickcavies]

I have personal experience of gut adhesion and it is VERY painful! I haven't had any girls spayed, but in this case it seems to be the best option. Choosing an experienced vet who has done lots of spays will give your girl the best chance of recovery, and as she is in so much pain, her quality of life is the important thing. I'll keep everything crossed for Dotty.

 

[Pebble]

Both myself and some of my pigs have had gut adhesion problems.

I do not have an aversion to spaying per se providing it is done by the right vet. Also however you need to be clear whether this is a "routine" spay or, as seems in your case, a spay with complicated surgical issues , in terms of selecting suitable vet/risk analysis etc

Molly Varga (now at Cheshire pets) - advocates spaying from the sides (for a routine spay) - and is the lead vet in the UK on this method
Simon Maddock (again routinely) spays all my pigs with 100% success rate but not using Molly's side method - he majors on fluid replacement to enable proper post-op recovery which I believe is a major factor in his success rate for spays with no post-op complications

You also will need a vet with good anaesthetic experience and, given the possible surgical complications, has advanced surgical skills.

I have been up since 4am this morning and there is a lot of info in your thread to digest and consider that I am unable to do tonight.
I will come back tomorrow with more info on pros and coins of various vets given her current condition
x