fungal spores and oedema - advice please!

[perry]

Hi I thought I'd post as I've been having a tough time with my two piggies recently and thought people here might be able to give me some advice
A couple of weeks ago, I noticed that one of my boys had developed (seemingly overnight) a huge swelling under his chin and behind his back legs. He has long very thick fur and it must have come up very suddenly, as it had not been there the day before. I contacted wonderful Vedra at the CCC and she took him and his brother in a couple of days later. It turned out he'd developed a nasty fungal spore infection (she thought possibly from hay) and developed an oedema (sp?!) from it (the other boy had it but only very mildly and is fine now). She kept them in for a few days, shaved and bathed them and managed to get rid of most of the liquid causing the swelling from Siegfried, who had it badly. She then gave me some intrafungal and some diuretic tablets for the following week. When I took him back a week later, she said that the original infection had gone, thank goodness but the oedema was becoming difficult to shift - it would go down a bit when she expelled the liquid but within a day it swells up again. She said he'd probably need a stronger tablet as his heart was most likely affected and recommended a vet I could go to, to get more medication. Today I went to the vet and he has given me a dose of furosemide (10mg a day) and fortekor (quarter of a 2.5mg tablet a day). these are only for a couple of weeks as I think he is going to order and send me some Endopril instead. So I gave my piggy his meds this evening but the swelling is still bad (it had seemed to have gone down yesterday but that was probably because Vedra had expelled most of the liquid on Sunday and he'd been on a double dose of the diuretic she'd given me on Monday). Does anyone have any experience of these drugs and of how long they might take to work to get down the swelling. He is fine in himself, eating and so on but obviously, I'm so worried today's vet (who is also a rodentologist), did take an xray and said his lungs are ok, strong enough but that there is some liquid from the oedema in his heart.
sorry for the l-o-n-g post...! thank you

 

[katiepops]

Hi I'm really sorry I have no experience with any of these drugs. Hopefully some of our experienced people will be able to advise.
Bump up your thread in the morning if none of them see it tonight.

 

[perry]

Hi, not sure if replying will bump the thread up but hope so as advice would be really welcome!

 

[Pebble]

Hi

I've been using heart meds and diuretics with my piggies over the last three years and I have to say that none of their conditions have ever been linked to any evidence (we've done blood and cultures...and post-mortems when they have finally gone to The Bridge) of a systemic fungal infection being involved. There is a bacterium known to infect the heart called Streptococcus but again, none of my pigs showed evidence of this. I will limit my comments therefore to the meds you have been given and the results of the X rays.

Fortekor and frusemide are the two standard heart meds recommended on guinea lynx for heart piggies at doses of 1mg/kg and 2mg/kg resepectively. In some cases Enalapril is given in place of or as well as fortekor but is thought to have a negative effect on the kidneys whereas fortekor doesn't. However as each pig will respond differently, it takes a while to get the doses right so expect to have regular follow-up visits and dose adjustments with your vet.

Piggies with odemea such as yours are generally given a much higher dose of frusemide to "kick-start" getting rid of the fluid - this can be up to 10mg/kg twice daily and once the excess fluid has been reduced the dose is reduced to the lower maintenance dose to prevent fluid building up again. Sometimes you may need to give higher doses of frusemdie for a few days if it looks like the fluid is building up again to get it back under control.

Given your piggie has quite a lot of fluid under the chin, it could take a week or so for the frusemide to have a visible effect on a swelling of that size, however it should in that time reduce the fluid around his heart and help reduce the strain on his heart and breathing. This is provided he does not also have associated kidney problems which would need to be diagnosed with a blood test

As he is being given a high dose of frusemide at the moment, it is important to check daily that he doesn't become dehydrated....if you pull the skin behind his neck upwards into a tent then it should spring back. If it stays in position then he will need a vet visit for rehydration with subcutaneous fluid injections to support him.
Hopefully over the next few weeks as the doses are adjusted you should start to see an improvement in his general condition and he will go on to live a very happy life.

HTH
x

 

[Suzygpr]

I have no experience with long term use of frusomide or forketor so can't help with any advice.

It does surprise me just how many pigs CCT diagnose and treat as having systemic fungal - not that common in my experience. Though I have treated a few with it also using itrafungol and found their info very useful.

Suzy x

 

[perry]

Hi both, thank you very much for your replies. Pebble, that was really helpful - Vedra at the CCC had suggested Enapril but the vet I went to (who she had recommended - I normally never go to a vet as live quite near Vedra) didn't have it in stock, hence giving me the other meds. However, he had said that if I call up next week, they will have got some in which they could send me, although your comment about it effecting the kidneys does worry me somewhat so I will call the vet to discuss this.
My boy is generally very good at drinking and I've been watching him to make sure that he is and also giving him lots of cucumber but I'll try that skin text!
I don't really know where or how all this started - as far as I'd thought, they were both healthy, next thing I knew, he had this swelling and Vedra had said it was fungus from hay - which was scary in itself as I'd been using the same product for years. Knowing that it might take a week to go down a bit is re-assuring - I was worrying that nothing seemed to have cleared over night.
Luckily, my boys will be boarding with Vedra for a few nights while I am away over New Year, so she will also be able to keep an eye on him.

 

[Poppy'sMum]

I have no experience with long term use of frusomide or forketor so can't help with any advice.

It does surprise me just how many pigs CCT diagnose and treat as having systemic fungal - not that common in my experience. Though I have treated a few with it also using itrafungol and found their info very useful.

Suzy x

How does fungal cause oedema? Could it be that it is mainly agricultural land in Cambs/Lincs & the incidence of fungal could be higher than where you are in Wales possibly?

 

[perry]

How does fungal cause oedema? Could it be that it is mainly agricultural land in Cambs/Lincs & the incidence of fungal could be higher than where you are in Wales possibly?

To be honest, I'm not sure - I've found the whole thing quite confusing. I know Vedra said she thought that there had been some problem with mites involved - could this have been as a result of the fungal spores in the hay? I think the oedema was a secondary complication, caused by his body being full of the infection, but I might be wrong.

 

[Suzygpr]

How does fungal cause oedema? Could it be that it is mainly agricultural land in Cambs/Lincs & the incidence of fungal could be higher than where you are in Wales possibly?

The three pigs that I have treated for systemic fungal infection had no sign of oedema at all. One did develop lung congestion (fluid build up in the lungs) 6 months later and was treated with frusemide. I think this was due to the Itrafungol and it's long term effect on the body. Just my opinion. I am no fan of Vedra and her views on treatments - I prefer to trust my highly qualified vet.

Suzy x

 

[perry]

The three pigs that I have treated for systemic fungal infection had no sign of oedema at all. One did develop lung congestion (fluid build up in the lungs) 6 months later and was treated with frusemide. I think this was due to the Itrafungol and it's long term effect on the body. Just my opinion. I am no fan of Vedra and her views on treatments - I prefer to trust my highly qualified vet.

Suzy x

The vet I saw did say it was pretty unusual so I guess I'll have to see how the medication goes. It's quite a worry though, not really knowing what's caused it.

 

[Suzygpr]

Treating oedema with frusemide and fortekor is correct - I'm not at all convinced that oedema is linked to systemic fungal, first and foremost it is a symptom of heart/kidney problems.

I will be following your pig's progress with interest and you have all my best wishes for a good outcome.

Suzy x

 

[Suzygpr]

double post

 

[Poppy'sMum]

I agree the only piggies I have had with heart/kidney problems both had oedema, the one I had with fungal showed no sign of it whatsoever. Could fungal be a sign of an immune problem in the piggy which is a precursor to heart or kidney trouble perhaps?

 

[perry]

thank you i have him here with me now for a cuddle and am giving him lots of attention and love. it's been a horrible couple of weeks, having a sick piggy is so stressful and i want to make sure i'm doing everything for him that i can, he seems ok apart from the swelling and is a bit quieter than usual but at least he's eating well. his brother must wonder what all the fuss is about!

 

[daftscotslass]

Like Suzy I think it's really bizarre that she came to the conclusion linking fungal to the oedema. Like Poppy'sMum said it's more likely that fungal is secondary to heart problems. Fingers crossed the heart meds will do something to combat the swelling.

 

[perry]

I agree the only piggies I have had with heart/kidney problems both had oedema, the one I had with fungal showed no sign of it whatsoever. Could fungal be a sign of an immune problem in the piggy which is a precursor to heart or kidney trouble perhaps?

hi, yes, i don't know - the xray the vet did showed that my boy's lungs are ok and that his heart had some of the water in it but he said it wasn't too bad and therefore was worth carrying on with the medication. i have to say, i did get quite confused by all the information that vedra and the vet gave me - i guess it's hard to take in when you're upset and worried. i really value all the thoughts and advice that people on here can give and clearly now my main concern is to get the swelling down and to make sure that any other internal problems are picked up on. would he need blood tests to check for kidney problems? or are there other symptoms which i could look out for?

 

[daftscotslass]

Has he had any other symptoms? Heart pigs often do soft "hooting" which is a soft squeak sound when they exhale. Recurrent URIs as well.

 

[Poppy'sMum]

It may be that she spotted the fungal when treating the oedema which makes more sense

I think it would be best to go back to your vet if he shows no sign of improvement & especially if he becomes unwell, sitting in a corner fluffed up, loses appetite, stops weeing/pooping etc.

 

[perry]

Has he had any other symptoms? Heart pigs often do soft "hooting" which is a soft squeak sound when they exhale. Recurrent URIs as well.

there is a sound when he breathes, yes, very soft. i wasn't sure if i was just getting paranoid, looking for problems or if it was something to worry about..

 

[perry]

It may be that she spotted the fungal when treating the oedema which makes more sense

I think it would be best to go back to your vet if he shows no sign of improvement & especially if he becomes unwell, sitting in a corner fluffed up, loses appetite, stops weeing/pooping etc.

yes -it was the oedema that i took him in for - to be honest, i'd not noticed excessive scratching at all, or i would have bathed him. his fur always looks really good to me, so i'd not thought there was any kind of fungal problem but when the swelling came up i contacted her immediately.

thanks yes, the vet told me to call him next week, which i will do and take it from there. he is definitely quieter than usual but i've been making sure he's eating, drinking, pooping as usual.

 

[paulag]

I've had Stella on furosemide for the last 6 months or so and she's doing very well considering she's pushing 6. She tends to get very wide without it and gets extremely breathless and is prone to chest infections. The vet thought it was probably mild heart failure.

Initially I was grinding up a tablet and dividing it is 4 with a knife on tin foil to make 4 little tin foil packets. I used to call it cutting drugs. It was mixed with water and syringe fed and was an absolute pain.

However we got hold of some liquid furosemide a few months back which is so much better. We just syringe 0.5 ml every day. It's made by a company called Rosemont and was quite expemsive but there's enough for nearly a year She's a complete petal and totally unstressed by the experience and so we've kept her going for months - she does occasionally get a chest infection which I treat with a course of baytril.

I did realise the other day it's 10% alcohol thought - no wonder she doesn't object. However if you scale the dose up its the equivalent to me having 30ml of wine a day. I think I would have worried if I realised straight away, but she's been on it since August now.

Paula

 

[perry]

I've had Stella on furosemide for the last 6 months or so and she's doing very well considering she's pushing 6. She tends to get very wide without it and gets extremely breathless and is prone to chest infections. The vet thought it was probably mild heart failure.

Initially I was grinding up a tablet and dividing it is 4 with a knife on tin foil to make 4 little tin foil packets. I used to call it cutting drugs. It was mixed with water and syringe fed and was an absolute pain.

However we got hold of some liquid furosemide a few months back which is so much better. We just syringe 0.5 ml every day. It's made by a company called Rosemont and was quite expemsive but there's enough for nearly a year She's a complete petal and totally unstressed by the experience and so we've kept her going for months - she does occasionally get a chest infection which I treat with a course of baytril.

I did realise the other day it's 10% alcohol thought - no wonder she doesn't object. However if you scale the dose up its the equivalent to me having 30ml of wine a day. I think I would have worried if I realised straight away, but she's been on it since August now.

Paula

that's really interesting - makes me worry a bit less knowing that others have experienced this medication. My boy is seeming fine, apart from the swelling - it doesn't seem to really be going down but I guess he's only been on this drug for a couple of days. The vet suggested getting a pill cutter which has done the trick and it's not too tricky making him eat it, with a bit of practice. Liquid solution might be the way to go though as we do have a syringe which we'd used successfully with the intrafungal.

 

[paulag]

We're lucky guinea pigs are so placid. Basil the chinchilla was a nightmare to get antibiotics down - he had to be wrapped tightly in a towel. And don't even get me started on syringe feeding a degu with post operative gut stasis - by the time he was feeding himself again me and the hubby didn't have an unbitten finger between is and Radar would attach himself to you with his teeth if you put your hand the cage. Thankfully after a couple of months he forgot all about it and is now a complete sweetie again. Lifelong daily medication just wouldn't work.

Although it started straight away I seem to remember it did take a couple of weeks to have full effect. She's now wonderfully fit - I was a little dubious about it when we started and honestly thought we'd loose her in a couple of weeks he breathing was so bad. But it's been a minor miracle.

Paula

 

[perry]

We're lucky guinea pigs are so placid. Basil the chinchilla was a nightmare to get antibiotics down - he had to be wrapped tightly in a towel. And don't even get me started on syringe feeding a degu with post operative gut stasis - by the time he was feeding himself again me and the hubby didn't have an unbitten finger between is and Radar would attach himself to you with his teeth if you put your hand the cage. Thankfully after a couple of months he forgot all about it and is now a complete sweetie again. Lifelong daily medication just wouldn't work.

Although it started straight away I seem to remember it did take a couple of weeks to have full effect. She's now wonderfully fit - I was a little dubious about it when we started and honestly thought we'd loose her in a couple of weeks he breathing was so bad. But it's been a minor miracle.

Paula

Yes, I've been feeling the same, so worried about him and feeling kind of helpless, just wondering when the medication will take effect - I guess you get impatient, wanting immediate results. I just read on Guinea Lynx that it takes 3-5 days and this is only day 2 on this medication (though he has had the problem for 2 weeks now but was previously just on the intrafungol and a diuretic). He also keeps shaking his head but it's random when he does it, only if I try to touch him but not every time. He had been having little fits we think, but I'm really hoping that this medication calms things down. If he wasn't eating and squeaking and running about when we put him on the ground, I'd be REALLY desperate! :...

 

[perry]

My wonderful boy Siegfried died in the night he'd been struggling with this problem for almost 2 months, had been on all kinds of medication from both our rodentologist vet and vedra at the ccc. in the end he was on a cocktail of 4 different meds and seemed to be baffling medical science in that he was still himself - eating lots, running around, squeaking and enjoying life but just very swollen. but he suddenly went down hill last night and i guess his heart gave out. Although I'm devastated, and burying him was horrendous, I'm glad he died peacefully at home in his bed with his brother. Thank you again to the people on here who'd offered advice and comments when I first posted x