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Holly - long term mouth issues

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pelicano

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I was just looking for my old thread on Holly, but it's such an old and complicated/confusing thread, I thought it best to start a new one, with all the information summarised!

Holly is nearly 5 now, and has had a problem for just under a year with losing weight. This all seemed to happen after she was spayed but, with hindsight, I now think it was beginning just prior to the spay, as her appetite went down just before she was spayed.

She had a dental examination under anaesthetic, and x-rays taken. The vet said her mouth and teeth looked healthy, but that there as an unusual amount of food stuffed inside the mouth that hadn't been swallowed. He didn't know what was wrong with her, therefore. At the point where he examined her, I had been using Daktarin oral gel for a week or so.

I found Daktarin gel really helped - she ate faster and more, and put weight on. She also seems to do well with Dida tablets, so there seems to be an issue in her gut too. How these are related I don't know exactly - ie it's difficult to monitor exactly what treatment has caused weight to be gained etc. For quite a few months of this year she has been over 1 kg and very healthy.

She has needed courses of Daktarin gel from time to time since then, but I'm worried at the moment that the situation is worsening. For the past 2 days I've been cutting down the Daktarin gel (to 0.3 ml twice a day) and this morning she was pulling all sorts of faces with her mouth (food stuck I expect), and not wanting to eat veggies. I have stepped up the Daktarin as a result, and also got her out on her own with a small pile of fresh picked grass, which she ate with no problems.

Because of the gut potential issue, I've also started her on probiotics and Fibreplex. I've avoided them up to now, because it seems to worsen both my pigs' UTI issues (which I'm sure are unrelated to this other problem). They are both relatively good with their bladders at the moment, so it was a case of weighing up one risk against another.

So... I'm really not quite sure where to go from here. I'm particularly worried about going on holiday at the end of June. I think she is going to have to have her teeth/mouth examined again, as it has been some time, and in case dental issues have arisen in the mean time. I only wish I had a good small animal vet or could easily get to the CCT. The vet I see currently is OK, does listen to what I have to say, and seems to take advice from other experts, which is the best I can do locally. I'm not aware of any vets around here that do conscious dentals, however.

Diet-wise, I'm going to try to get them back more on a grass-based diet, rather than the veggies. Obviously they already eat stacks of hay.

Any advice would be appreciated. :)
 
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I am not an expert on your specific problems, but I would do the same as you are planning - have her teeth and mouth checked again. Is it worth having her poo looked at in a laboratory to see whether there is something wrong with her guts/digestive system, so you have that angle covered?

Have you tried contacting the CCT for the address of a rodentologist or a vet they can recommend in your area/reach? It might be worth a try.
http://jackiesguineapiggies.com/cct.html
 
Have you tried worming her? If she has a heavy parasite load that may be contributing to the lack of weight?
 
I haven't contacted the CCT direct, but I have loads of small animal contacts and am pretty sure there are no vets recommended around here. I will make contact though - it's worth a try. I believe there is one in Hertfordshire, which is way too far. So frustrating...

Yes, that was what I forgot to say in my original post! She has been wormed several times during this time period - Panacur, Ivermectin and also 4-Seasons.
 
Sorry I can't help you with this but just wanted to wish you luck in finding help and hopefully getting her well.

You mentioned a cavy savvy Vet in Herts. Was it Vets & Pets in Broxbourne? This is one I've heard recommended.

Do you live near any rescues? If so, you could perhaps ask your local one which Vet they use.

Good luck x
 
Ah yes, that sounds like the one (Broxbourne). That's miles from here.

I don't know of any good rescues around here, other than one in South Essex, but I've just contacted them to see if they have any suggestions.

It's not that I have an absolute clueless vet (I've seen plenty of those in the past! :(), I could just do with one with a bit more cavy know-how.
 
To update this, I have been keeping a close eye on Holly and weighing her daily, but yesterday evening she developed a temporary head tilt. She has also had this (but less badly) in the past (a few months ago). She really seemed distressed, and I gave her some Metacam, which seemed to perk her right up. I was going to contact the emergency vet, but eventually decided that might do more harm than good, plus she responded to the Metacam.

Now, I know this is a sign of a potential ear infection, but how is this linked to the mouth? Maybe it isn't? And surely, if it were to be an ear infection the head tilt wouldn't just appear suddenly and then go again (she was literally totally normal, then suddenly put her head on one side and started laying down on that side jerking her body). When I picked her up to look at her, gently touching her around her face/under her ears caused her to squeal. The head tilt and jerking lasted about 10 minutes in total, and she has been OK ever since.

Unfortunately, when I rang the vets today I couldn't get through at first, then when I finally got through, it was to a mobile phone and someone saying they have been evacuated due to a fire next door! So I'm really hoping now I can get an appointment tomorrow. She's stable, in the sense of eating and drinking, head is straight, etc, so it's not one for the emergency vet as yet, I'm sure. Plus it's obviously going to be a complicated one.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I can't get my head around it at all. :{
 
I don't know a great deal about guinea anatomy, but I know in humans the ear, nose and throat are all connected. So it may be possible that it's tied in somehow.

Ear infection is one possibility, but have you ever considered ear mites? Does she have quite dirty/waxy ears or are they cleaned regularly? Ear mites can cause sensitivity of the ears and a head tilt, perhaps some of the other symptoms you've described as well.
 
Thanks very much for the quick reply, Laura.

I forgot to say, when I examined her, I did have a look in both ears. They looked OK (relatively clean), but I'm always a bit iffy on piggy ears, and don't 100% know what I'm doing/looking for! Mainly because I've never seen some really grubby ears before. So no, I don't really clean them, but just look out for signs of wax etc.
 
It may be worth giving them a clean. I've found the piggies with pale skin have wax that is very hard to see, usually a clear to faintly yellowy colour. The Bathing thread in the Reference Section gives tips on ear cleaning.

It is a shame your vets aren't operational at the moment, must be worrying for you but then very difficult for the vets too, having to evacuate!
 
Just had a thought... Does oral ivermectin not kill ear mites? They had some last Sunday (as a wormer). If mites were present they'd obviously be due for a follow up now. :{
 
Oral ivermectin should be effective, may be worth giving a second dose in a couple of days, but actually cleaning the ears is still important to get rid of the dead mites. :)
 
Thanks! :) What is the best way to clean ears? Is there a link you can point me to or something? It's just one of those things I've always been scared of. :{:red
 
Thanks v much for that, Laura.

You've really got me thinking too, about the relationship between ear and mouth issues, as I actually have that problem myself (my ear sets off my jaw, which can hurt to eat), so I would imagine that's even more noticeable in a small animal if there are issues...

I've had another look in the ears tonight, but can see nothing obvious (wax etc). In the mean time, I've given her Metacam again, but she's relatively perky.
 
Holly has been to the vets today, and the vet was kind of baffled by my long story, as I imagined she would be! She couldn't see anything odd in her ears.

However, when she took her temperature, it came out really quite high (over 40 degrees), so she thought the first thing to consider was an infection somewhere. There was also blood in her urine too, but... well, what's new with my piggies and their bladders? rolleyes So, I've got Holly on some Septrin now to see what happens...
 
poor girl is really going through the mill! fingers crossed for a full and swift recovery!
 
Just to update, Holly is still losing weight. :( I'm worried and not knowing what to do. Got to ring the vet after a week (which will be in a couple of days' time). In the mean time, I'm going to have to increase the Critical Care...
 
Sorry to hear that Holly is still poorly. Really hope you can find something which works and turns things around for her soon. Maybe the Septrin is just taking a while to really take effect?

I'm sure your Vet shouldn't mind you calling a little earlier than planned, if you're still very anxious (which would be completely understandable) and would feel better running things by them. Good luck x
 
This is a long shot, and I don't even know if it would be relevent, but prednisolone - a steroid - can help with throat infections. I say it's a long shot because the pig I recall who had a particular throat infection was also not eating, and I know Holly is able to eat on the whole. Maybe worth discussing with the vet though.

Nothing else is really coming to mind, all the usual has been covered - wormed, oral fungal (Daktarin), Dida (systemic fungal). I can't remember if the vet tried Itrafungol at all?
 
Thanks v much for the responses.

I've made an appointment for Friday, as I really don't think there is much point talking it over on the phone with the vet. If need be I'll go sooner though.

It's just so baffling... She is most definitely in some level of discomfort, but I really can't pinpoint where it is coming from. :{ In terms of eating, she is getting very picky. I think it's just all a bit of an effort. She has an appetite to some degree, but only for the things that she really loves! (eg grass, cucumber, carrot and celery) Everything else she is just nibbling on, like hay, dried food, lettuce etc. I had a theory for a while that she was only eating stalky type food, since she leaves things like corriander and round lettuce, but that theory has gone out of the window now, since I think it's just her personal preference rather than anything to do with texture.

Thanks for the suggestions, Laura. Neither of those have been tried.

These pets are making me grey... :{
 
Tee hee hee, I am an evil genius! :))8) Have managed to get Holly to eat far more by taking Cassie out of the cage (poor Cass!), putting the veggies in, letting Holly eat till she gets fed up, then putting the porky Cassie back in, then they both eat the rest! Can't do that all day long with the hay, but it's a help, anyway.

Vets tomorrow... :{
 
Had a dithery appointment at the vets. The vet is convinced that the source of her pain is her bladder. Decided in the end to just carry on doing what I'm doing (her weight is fairly stable, if low) and bring her back for yet another culture test (she hasn't had one lately, but Sukie had one just before Christmas) once the antibiotics have stopped interfering with the results.

I think she's on her way to kidney failure, to be honest, like Sukie (died just after Christmas). :0
 
Sorry you weren't really able to get any further with determining the cause of Holly's problem. I really hope that she has a better prognosis that you fear :(

Not really sure what to suggest but just keep asking questions....assuming you know which ones to ask! I know it's really hard when you simply don't know what's wrong. Hope she at least maintains a stable weight while you keep trying to figure it all out x
 
OK... I don't know what to do for Holly. :( I wish I could change the title of this thread too, but don't seem to be able to.

Last week a urine sample went to the lab for culture analysis, and has come back negative, exactly as it did for Sukie (who died of suspected kidney failure at Christmas). I and the vet think Holly is heading the same way. :(

She has suggested that she can try a vitamin B injection (B12?), to stimulate her appetite. The other option was an anabolic steroid to maximise kidney function and her appetite.

I've not heard of either of these treatments, and it was left that I'd be thinking it over etc. So... any advice/thoughts would be much appreciated. I feel that I've not got long with Holly and I need to do everything that I can, whilst making as informed a decision as possible.

Years ago, when I didn't have a great vet, or much knowledge, I had a piggy with suspected kidney issues, who was given injections to help her kidneys a few weeks apart. It makes me wonder if this was the anabolic steroid my current vet is talking about. :{
 
Hello Pelicano,

I had a pig die of kidney problems 2 years ago. I always suspected that she had an underlying heart problem (often related to kidney problems), but the vet took xrays 12 months before she died and said that this was not the case. The reason I mentioned it was that the vet thought she had lung cancer and gave her some steroids to shrink the 'growths' and she perked right up.

From my experience, I would say that steroids would be a good idea, but having had one piggy die a laboured death in my arms from kidney failure I vowed that if I managed to spot terminal decline in another pig I would have them put to sleep.

I hope you don't find this gloomy, but you'll see from my recent thread that I am facing a very similar scenario with my Piggy Wiggin who is losing weight gradually and drinking loads. I might suggest to my vet that we give her steroids to give her a boost, but I am reluctant to supplementary feed when the prognosis is so pessimistic. Metacam cannot be given in cases of kidney disease and there is no treatment. I would be very concerned about condemning my piggy to a painful death that was actually made worse because I kept her going.

Again, apologies if this post offends, but as we are facing a very similar scenario I thought it would be helpful to compare notes in as honest a way as possible.
 
Hello Pelicano,

I had a pig die of kidney problems 2 years ago. I always suspected that she had an underlying heart problem (often related to kidney problems), but the vet took xrays 12 months before she died and said that this was not the case. The reason I mentioned it was that the vet thought she had lung cancer and gave her some steroids to shrink the 'growths' and she perked right up.

From my experience, I would say that steroids would be a good idea, but having had one piggy die a laboured death in my arms from kidney failure I vowed that if I managed to spot terminal decline in another pig I would have them put to sleep.

I hope you don't find this gloomy, but you'll see from my recent thread that I am facing a very similar scenario with my Piggy Wiggin who is losing weight gradually and drinking loads. I might suggest to my vet that we give her steroids to give her a boost, but I am reluctant to supplementary feed when the prognosis is so pessimistic. Metacam cannot be given in cases of kidney disease and there is no treatment. I would be very concerned about condemning my piggy to a painful death that was actually made worse because I kept her going.

Again, apologies if this post offends, but as we are facing a very similar scenario I thought it would be helpful to compare notes in as honest a way as possible.

I'm so sorry for not replying to this sooner. I did find your post very helpful, but have been preoccupied and stressed, and a bit withdrawn about the whole thing. :( How is Piggy Wiggin? I hope I haven't missed a post here, as I haven't been around on the forum much.

I doubt I will have Holly for much longer at all. :( She had a vitamin B12 injection on Saturday to try to stimulate her appetite and energy, and an anabolic steroid on Sunday. Her weight has gone up very slightly, but her appetite is very poor. I also think she is in pain, and I obviously don't want her to suffer. Because her weight has gone up very slightly, at the moment I think I want to wait until Saturday to make the dreaded decision...
 
Really sorry to hear that Holly's still so poorly and that you're both in such a sad place right now. I really feel for you x
 
Update - and ear issues?

Thought I should update this. Amazingly, I still have my skinny Holly pig. :) She is really hard work to keep going, and the fussiest creature alive, but having an anabolic steroid every 2 weeks seems to be keeping her stable.

One thing I've noticed recently is that she's a bit deaf. Given that I was concerned about her ears, given the strange head tilt that she does very occasionally, I asked the vet to look in her ears again. All she could see was some wax, so I've put two lots of Otodex drops in (ie 2 days running), but I'm not sure whether that is enough.
 
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