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"Jerky" Breathing/ Back End Spasm?

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Stinklepig

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For the last day or two Trembles has been having noticeable spasms (for want of a better word) just ahead of her hips, and seemingly in time with her breathing. She's been last this befre, it seems to come and go from what I can tell, although with all that's happened recently I can't honestly say I've been keeping track too well :(

She's fine in herself, trotting around, eating, drinking etc.

I'm wondering if it could be hormonal? She did see a vet the end of last year as a precaution when her daughter went in for an ovarian cyst op (that she didn't survive) and was given the all clear, but I've always been a little concerned. Since she was young she's had a habit of swearing at her back end, worse every couple of weeks or so...

Given her mother is very hormonal (her general outlook on life is to be boss pig and beat things up) and her daughter had ovarian cysts, is there a chance this spasming could also be hormonal? After searching I can't seem to find anything about the symptoms, she's pooing healthy poos and as frequently as I'd expect, peeing fine too. I can't be sure about the cycling of the spasms and duration as I'm just not with it at the moment (had another bad piggie day yesterday :... ) but other than her maybe sleeping slightly more aggressively when they're at their peak I can't see any other symptoms of illness whatsoever and it's got me totally stumped.
 
When she does spasm, is she heaving for breath? Is there any difficulty breathing and can you get close to her side and listen for any odd noises while she is having spasms? Wheezing or clicking?

It could be breathing difficulties brought on by stress - I know it sounds odd but my sister used to hyperventilate when she had been very ill and was very stressed and needed applications of a brown paper bag over the head to sort her out! She always heaved for breath when she was doing this and shook horribly across her stomach with the sheer effort of breathing. It was really hard on the muscles there apparently.

Anyway, is there any change in her breathing and could she need either less oxygen - hyperventilating - or a nebuliser - asthma?

Sarah
 
It's hard for me to descirbe, but it doesn't seem related to eating, she can be sleeping, eating, having a wander, and still has this jerkiness like a muscle spasm just in front of her hip (mainly the left, but that's possibly because she thinks that's her best side to show the world). I can't say how her breathing is, it looks like it's related/ affected in time with the spasm, but I can't be sure. Listening to her she doesn't have any wheezing or anything.

I know her mother is prone to picking on her (and everyone else, time to think about hormone jabs I reckon) but I wouldn't say she's a stressed piggie most of the time.

She doesn't seem quite so bad today, though every time I go near she's shuffling off under the hay loft, think I annoyed her with the Infacol last night!

It's odd, she eats, drinks, is a fair size (about 1300g last weigh a couple of weeks ago), walks fine etc, but there's this "not quite right" that I can't put my finger on. After the last few weeks I'm so on edge, and starting to not want to come into the lounge just in case. Treacle (Trembs gran) hasn't been right since a tooth and serious digestive issue last year and looks so wrong even though she's first upstairs for food, Mop is hormonal and now has two fatty eyes, Snowy is quite low after Flots started really beating her up, and then Jet, her only friend, died this week... I'm at my wits end.
 
As daft as it sounds, one of my piggies is prone to hiccups. They look like little spasms down the abdomen, same as with humans, and it ties in with the area of diaphragmatic 'breathing' issues. Saffron usually gets hiccups if she runs around soon after eating her veggies. No sound, and it does happen infrequently on random days. Maybe something to think about?

I understand the worry. I lost two pigs at the start of the year and it took me weeks to stop fretting every time I saw a pig fast asleep.
 
CCC4 said:
As daft as it sounds, one of my piggies is prone to hiccups. They look like little spasms down the abdomen, same as with humans, and it ties in with the area of diaphragmatic 'breathing' issues. Saffron usually gets hiccups if she runs around soon after eating her veggies. No sound, and it does happen infrequently on random days. Maybe something to think about?
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I did wonder that ages ago when I first noticed, but it seems to last for so long, and never read of any other piggies doing it! I've just managed to get a better look at her (and she teeth chattered at me, I'm not popular today then!) and she's still got the jerking, but less severe than last night. She was also tucking into a bit of hay at the time, so it's not putting her off eating or causing any obvious disturbance.

I understand the worry. I lost two pigs at the start of the year and it took me weeks to stop fretting every time I saw a pig fast asleep.
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It's the ones who sleep curled round and on their sides... Trembles is a very deep sleeper, and does so really flopped. The other week I was worried, went to the cage, she didn't move. Put my hand in, still didn't move. Lightly touched her, expecting the worst. Still didn't move. Gently poked her, she shot up, looked at me, swore, and went down to the water bottle.

If I had any faith in any of the local vets being able to x ray or scan her without risking her health with anaesthetic I'd just go that route, but I'm reluctant right now. At least the local vet who looked after Jet are open to not using anaesthetic for an x ray, although they do prefer to use a light sedation. Not great, but a start.
 
Sarah from Chucklebunnies said:
Anyway, is there any change in her breathing and could she need either less oxygen - hyperventilating - or a nebuliser - asthma?
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After todays excersise in futility can anyone be a little more specific on the above please? The vet did hear "something" in her chest, but didn't think it was an infection or anything she could do much about, put it down to allergies and told me to feed wet hay instead of dry, etc.

If there's something I can either do without their help, or shove them into doing for her then I really want to. I also really want to see a vet with a clue, but that's hit and miss in this county :(
 
If the vet heard "something" in her chest, perhaps consider looking into heart problems? Problems secondary to a heart issue can be pretty widespread. Not sure how applicable it would be in the curcumstances but perhaps something to investigate if there was something amiss.
 
:(

That's not sounding overly good then.

I can try investigating, but what would I be looking for? I'm assuming the vet listened to her heart, although to be honest I didn't notice her doing that yesterday. But I was having a hell of a headache thanks to my useless sinuses, and panicking about stones, so might have missed her doing that.
 
Heart troubles are not the easiest thing to diagnose, but treatment is pretty simple. Most people (i.e. vets and rodentologists) say their hearts are fine if they sound fine. Other owners and vets have experienced otherwise - everything sounds fine, but an xray shows an enlarged heart. Some have even found that, despite xrays and ECGs (the usual diagnostic tools of heart problems), nothing has shown up, only the symptoms are present - and yet damage/effects from a long-term defect had been uncovered upon post-mortem.

Many have success with trials of treatment in cases were the symptoms suggest a condition even if the tests apparently don't show anything. Persuading a vet to put the pig on a trial of Enalapril is an entirely different ball game, especially when tests apparently conclude that there is no heart disease.

In Trembles' case, I'd advise talking to the vet about what she "heard" and bring in a mention of the heart, discuss the possibility of there being a problem there, if it could relate to the "spasms" Trembles has been having, and if it's worth doing some tests to investigate further. Without other symptoms specific to heart trouble (see http://www.guinealynx.info/heart.html) it is pretty much a guarantee that she would not even consider a trial without investigation/diagnosis.

Perfectly treatable condition, just sometimes a hard one to diagnose.

Of course, Trembles' troubles may have nothing to do with her heart, so please don't worry yourself until you've spoken to the vet! It's just a topic I felt worth mentioning given that the vet heard "something".
 
"Hard to diagnose but perfectly treatable" Which particular heart condition is that?
 
Some vets don't believe in heart conditions in guinea pigs, and sometimes the practitioner is not capable or experienced enough to read ECGs / xrays of the heart. It's primarily hard to diagnose in the sense of lack of experience and knowledge on the vets part. Plus the pig can have all the symptoms but the vet is unable to find any physical evidence of a problem, in which case diagnosis can only be made by trial of meds or upon post mortem! Naturally some conditions may be harder to diagnose than others. Examples - arrythmia could be easier to initially pick up than cardiomyopathy.
 
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I can't help with anything for diagnosis but would just like to send HUGE healing weeks and loves to the little sweetie Trembles xx>>>xx>>>xx>>>xx>>>xx>>>
and i think you guys need a break, gosh you've been thru heck and back :{
Hope all goes well, will be thinking of you all xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
As Trembs is quite a placid piggie she went with Lunch to keep her company during the stay for the day for Lunch's x ray. This was also a sneaky way of taking Trembs in with a request to see a vet that wasn't the previous one, "just to double check" her.

In herself Trembs is fine, maybe gets a little short of breath quicker than the others, but ewats, drinks, sleeps etc and I can't tell any real difference in her to how she used to be other than the jerkyness. She's been a little less sociable since her daughter died, but then Mop becoming more aggressive hasn't helped anyones mood in the cage so I can't read too much into that.
 
I got a phone call from the vets this afternoon (just before their line went dead), the vet had listened to hear chest and could hear something not right. Based on that she wasn't sure whether I'd prefer to come home with some antibiotics, or have an x ray to investigate further. The moment I heard x ray I panicked, and so she had one taken.

It showed some damage to the soft tissue of the lungs, but no ominous lumps or bumps, which is good news. I'll admit I'd not really considered respiratory problems as it cycles and her nose eyes appetite have all been fine.

Also worries me that the first vet I saw at that practice with her this week said there was nothing to worry about, and this vet put her straight on meds.

I requested Septrin in place of Baytril, Trembs side of the family has never got on well with Baytril. So I was pleased to be handed a pot of it for Trembs and one for Lunch, but a little frightened when one is to be given 3ml and the other 4ml! I'm hoping it's a misprint, and I certainly won't be giving anything like that dose - Will chase them up tomorrow about that.
 
I am glad you have some progress on this. I agree about the Septrin dose - I'd hope it's meant to read .3ml (or 0.3ml) and .4ml!
 
When you next see the vet, ask to see the films and have the soft tissue damage pointed out to you. Just curious to know the response you will get from the vet! Remember the films belong to you.
 
alcesterpigs said:
Are there vets who carry out ECG on pigs?
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I have a friend in the US who's spent a lot of dollars in getting test on her piggie, to find out yes she did and does still have a heart condition, she's on meds and doing ok :)
She had to travel a fair distance to find people who'd do these test but she said it worth every cent and at least then she knew what was wrong, this little piggie is also blind so she's a real special one xx and now 6 years old and has had this **** now for nearly 2 years i think...
 
alcesterpigs said:
When you next see the vet, ask to see the films and have the soft tissue damage pointed out to you. Just curious to know the response you will get from the vet! Remember the films belong to you.
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Thanks, after another cruddy critter day I needed a laugh!

I've asked to see x rays before, and been met with "we can't legally let you have them", "they need to be kept here", "I don't know where the vet who took them is", and so on. Just because they only have them because I took the animal in, requested the x ray, paid for teh x ray, doesn't seem to give me any rights to the x ray!

I asked yesterday about the soft tissue damage, and again today (yes, back in, with another of the piggies), but heaven forbid anyone can actually locate the vet who took them, or find the time to show me the plates...

I'm currently sat in the same room as my degu who's teeth have gone bad again, a mere 2 weeks after his last dental, and waiting on emails from Sarah as I had to rush one of her piggies to the vets twice today. Not only am I sick of this year, but I'm utterly fed up with many (but not all, there are good vets out there, and some of them even work at good practices) of the professionals we entrust.

Oh, I also tried to check the Septrin dose today.. The receptionist was usure, but they recall the vet in question checking with the book of all medical knowledge before presribing, so it must be correct...
 
Just had a call from the senior vet at the practice about the Septrin dose - This guy is the reason I've started going there again, as he is very approachable and certainly goes out of his way to listen and to help. If only I could see him every time!

They'd looked into it and apparently the mistake was made due to referencing the book of all answers, and missing the part where the dose is measued by adding the total of the active ingredients (Septrin is a combination of two drugs). An easy mistake to make, although a potentially serious one! Still, it sounds like they've had an interesting time this evening working it out, and I'm very impressed to have been called out of hours (I thought it was going to be a kitchen sales call and nearly ignored it) to clear it up. Hopefully this kind of thing will also give them an incentive into looking at other medications than Baytril, as I genuinely believe it is an effective one for certain conditions. This is the same vet as I spoke to about Zithromax recently, and again his interest was really pleasing as any vet that is open to "new thinking" is one I'm open to using.

Now if only certain reception staff could be given a kick up the rear I'd maybe start to take back some of the things I've said about the place!
 
My piggy Skye has got a heart problem. Initially it looked like she was suffering from a URI, but on listening to her heart it was found that she had an incredibly irregular heartbeat, plus a heart murmur. She is now on 1/4 of a Fortekor tablet daily. Prior to starting this medication she was very lethargic and would just lie down all the time, looking very out of breath. Now she is full of life again.
 
Trembles has always been quite sedate so it's hard to say if she's sleeping more than usual!

Out of breath is sort of how I'd describe her, I first thought it was digestion (a few weeks ago, when I rushed out for Infacol and Dill) as for all the world it looks like her sides near her hips are fluttering/ spasming. But as time has passed I got to the point of no idea. The x ray yesterday showed some soft tissue damage in her lungs, so I guess I'm hoping it's a low level respiratory (it's not had any affect on her eating and drinking or health in any other noticeable way) and I now have rather a lot of Septrin to treat it with!

But the theory about heart problems might make a lot of sense, so I'll certainly be keeping an eye on things and coming back to this thread to re-read if she doesn't improve in a week or so on the antibiotics.
 
Yes I think its definitely worth giving some consideration to. Skye never went off her food or drink, but was just so lethargic and looked like she was finding breathing rather difficult. She was initially treated for a URI but didn't respond to the antibiotics. However, the improvement in her once she started on the Fortekor was amazing and very quick.
 
Do you know what strength tablets she's on? If Trembs doesn't respon to the antibiotics then this is something I would certainly want to look into, and the more info I can have before going to the vet the better! I can already see it not being the easiest appointment, so don't want to be pushing them into giving the wrong thing!

Unless you think Simon might be up for contacting them (and I'll happily pay a referral type fee in that case)?
 
rw3399 said:
I'm sorry to hear about Trembs. I hope the septrin works for her :)
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Early days yet, she's no worse though, just her usual self. Have to see how things go, as the x ray showed minor lung damage I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the antibiotics, and I suppose there's always Zithromax as a fall back (thanks to this forum :) ). I don't know if I'll ever get to see the x ray, but the heart condition possibility is very much in my mind so if the antibiotics don't get teh job done I can see me trying to discuss that with a vet.. Just hope I get one of the more forward thinking ones at the local practices (there are one or two, it's just luck of the draw seeing them when needed) if it comes to that.

Current Trembles troubles are she seems to be trying to oust Treacs from the hidey hole under the fiddlesticks, don't think she's making herself popular!
 
Still hoping the meds will kick in and help Trembles xx>>>xx>>>xx>>>xx>>>
awwwwwwww i did have a giggle tho when you said about the fiddlesticks, it's lovely to hear that even tho she maynot be the best, she still has her attitude and that will get her a long long way xx>>> i know that from experience :)
 
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