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Laboured breathing - can't figure out cause

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MidnightAngel

MidnightAngel

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Hi, I have been looking through the various threads that the search for 'laboured breathing' came up with but am still stuck, so hopefully someone out there with more knowledge can help.

We have a female ginny called Angel, who is a rescue Ginny. We have had her since Nov '09 and we believe her to be 5 - 6 yes old. She was never light on her feet when we got her and you could always see her sides moving when breathing, not noticeable in our other ginnys. In Jan she seemed to be stiffening & slowing up more than usual and was a bit unsteady on her feet, esp if she had been lying down sleeping and then suddenly got up. We took her to the vets, who checked her breathing, gave her a good feel and listened to her heart (we had wondered if it was old age). Nothing was obvious so the vet prescribed 0.1 ml metacam in case she had sore joints. We used this for about 2 weeks solid and she did seem to get more agile, then we changed to every other day dosage and she continued to seem fine.

However over the last week her visible signs of breathing (her sides rapidly going in and out) seems much more pronounced and she is lying down a lot, although does occasionally get up for a mouch and a nibble. Went to the vet again last Friday and she again checked lungs and heart, could not hear signs of any fluid or signs of URI and heart seemed to be okay also. As a precationary measure she prescribed 0.4 baytril daily and to continue with the 0.1 metacam daily to every other day.

Angel is now on her 4th baytril dose and does not seem to be any more perky or breathing easier. Thankfully she has not lost any weight over the last couple of months, her eyes are not crusty, and she does not make a noise when breathing. She is still eating but is not as quick to come out for her fresh food as she used to be, she has also gone off her Spinach and now seems to prefer her dry food, still eating hay also.

Do any of the symptons sound familiar, any clues in there as to what I need to be looking for and asking the vet to check? Appreciate all advice. I have lost a Ginny in the past due to lack of knowledge and I do not want same to happen again.

If it is old age and she is slowing down, then so be it and we will make her life as comfortable as possible, but if there is an underlying cause then we need to try and address it, if possible.

Thanks for reading and persevering through the above, succinct is not my middle name!
 
I would go back to the vet and consider a prescription for frusemide diuretic or even a heart med combination. It sounds like she has fluid accumulating either on the lungs, around the heart , in her abdomen or a combination of the three, causing problems with breathing.

She may have a heart condition, especially now she is in old age, or less likely (in view of the symptoms described) a kidney condition -either of which can cause fluid accumulation. (Actually there are several conditions that ulitmately put a strain on the heart and therefore lead to the type of symptoms you describe....bottom line is, there is possibly fluid accumulation and therefore possibly also stress on the heart which need to be treated)

Heart probs are not always indicated by a different sound or arrhythmia - an X ray may show fluid accumulation in any of the areas mentioned above and possibly a slightly enalrged heart - but most cases are not diagnosed from a stethoscope alone...and even an X ray may not be conclusive.

The standard dosage for heart guineas is fortekor 1mg/kg (heart med) and frusemide 2mg/kg.(diuretic) ..given once or twice daily. However she may need a booster of diuretic at first to allevaiate the symptoms/fluid build up and get her breathing easier again... so you would normally give a dose of up to 10mg total daily for one or two days before dropping back to the maintenance dose (NB make sure she has plenty of water and monitor her for dehydration when giving such a large dose of diuretic - she may need to be supplemented with SQ fluids)

Other indications for fluid accumulation leading to poor breathing and indicating a heart condition include extremities being less pink and more blue/grey including ears and lips - plus look out for swelling (oedeoma) on her front paws and her adopting a "pancake" position lying down. Her belly may be more distended (but will feel squidgy/mushy as opposed to hard - the latter indicates bloat/gas) Although she may be putting on weight on the scales - (suggest you weigh her daily for a bit) - you may start to feel the muscle wasting on her backbone/rump.

I have 7 heart guineas (all genetically related). My vet at first was sceptical (in the Uk few vets have heard of heart conditions in piggies). However I provided them with evidence off the guinea lynx forum and now, once they agreed to prescribe on the basis that "anything was worth a try", they are now complete converts on seeing the results and happy to keep on prescribing the meds to give my piggies a good quality of life for many piggie years to come.

Suggest you print out my post and take it to the vet with you - if you need the references on guinea lynx then PM me and I will supply.

Keeping fingers and paws crossed for Angel......if it is fluid accumulation she may well be able to enjoy a good quality of life for a few piggie years yet, given the right treatment.

HTH
xx
 
Forgot to add - despite copious stethosocoping and also many X rays, very few of my pigs have shown definitive fluid accumulation or enlarged hearts - The main indication is laboured breathing which may or may not sound a bit wheezy. However the results for my first heart pig (Muffin) following administration of frusemide and fortekor were so good (we then wtihdrew themeds for a week and she reverted) convinced the vet.

X rays of the others possibly showed fluid in teh chest cavity and the abdmen - but they were not conclusive and nothing abnormal was determinable by stethoscope. Nevertheless, heart meds/frusemide enables them all to breathe easier....piggies range from 2 years to 6 years old.

x
 
Thanks Pebble,

That's was very helpful. I have been wondering if it is her heart, especially as she does not seem to have any other symptoms of a URI.

I am weighing her daily and she is staying the same even though her laboured breathing is not allowing the scales to steady, however they never did since we've had her! I cleaned out their cage pm today and she is currently moving around in it having a mouch and a nibble, while Midnight (her companion) is out with my other half.

While her weight is steady I plan to finish the course of antibiotics and then take her back to the vets for the heart meds you have suggested. Even if she does seem to pick up more and move around more, her breathing has always been laboured and her back end a bit stiff / not very mobile or flexible, so I wonder if she maybe has had a heart condition for some time.

I am pretty sure she is not comfortable biologically somewhere at the moment, as when I pick her up recently she has been having a wee nibble at my hands, tried to take a wee chunk out this evening! Having said that it may be because I'm the one forcing meds down her with a syringe - she really doesn't like that!

Should she not have any heart trouble, are you aware if taking those meds could cause any issues?

Thanks Again,
MD
 
Piggie nibbling when you pick them up is a classic sign they are uncomfortable. This could be because either they are in pain (eg from bloat of kidney probs) or they are about to have a wee....or you are raising their head above their heart in the act of picking them up/holding them and therefore causing a strain/difficulty in breathing.

Grommie (my OAP) has recently started this - he is 6.5 yrs old and his breathing has been deteriorating despite the use of diuretics. He's perky in his own way (although he sleeps/rests a lot more than before) - but his heart is clearly having more problems now as his breathing issues are more frequent. :(. Having said that - he's still fine when I pick him up - as long as i keep him horizontal - otherwise he bites or tries to barber my hair :))....he gave me a wee nip earlier this evening but once he was put back and just stroked, he started purring away thanking me for the earlier delivery of grass and dandelions. :))

How long before the antibioitics are finished? If the sacles are moving tat much it might be better to get fruseamide sooner rather than later as this will aid the action of any antibioitic, esepcially if there is a deep seated respiratory infection.

xx
 
Aye, Angel never used to nibble, whereas Midnight (our other rehomed Ginny) always has, I think he likes the taste of blood! She seems reasonably chirpy today and out and about eating, but I know what you are saying and agree, if I can get her in on Friday morning I will be able to take her to the vet then, otherwise it will be Monday as planned.

Her weight is still steady, but I think her poops are smaller than normal so maybe less food and more fluid? Need to try the heart meds. Her antibiotics looks like they will last well into next week, irrespective I was planning on getting an appointment for Monday as I can work from home that day so def get her to the vets in time.

Thanks again Pebble, it helps to discuss with someone who has a Ginny with poss same condition and who is knowledgeable :-) x
 
Well Angel, seems to be doing better. Not sure if it is the antibiotics, anti-inflammatrys, diuretics or all three. She has been on the higher dose of diuretics since Sat night and next appt with the Vet is tomorrow morning, to get the frusemide and hopefully liquid diurectic this time. On Friday all she had was a tiny tablet of diuretic, so grinding that down in a pestle & mortar and then separating it up into 1/5 with a credit card was bit like Miami Vice! rolleyes
 
I am glad that she is doing better! The things we are doing for the sake of our piggles... rolleyes
 
Fingers crossed for Angel. Definitely useful knowledge to have for future.

Keeps me updated on how she gets on poor girl. x
 
Ha ha, no comment Flips & Weikbe, my other half did the diuretic chopping! My job is coaxing Angel to take the anti-inflam and antibio (lazy typing!).


Will keep you updated Layla, she is def enjoying the exclusivity and extra attention :)
 
Tryng to divide that small tablet into 5 is difficult! An easier way to give the diuretic is as follows: I grind up the frusemide (1 x 20mg tablet) in a pestle and mortar and then add 2ml of water from a syringe to make a 10mg/ml solution. I then use the syringe to put the liquid suspension into a small bottle -

If she is being given 1/5 of a 20mg tablet that equates to a total dose of 4mg - which is 0.4ml of the solution. (Check the tablet strength and come back if it is different to the above) The solution *** keep overnight in the fridge and just needs to be brought up to room temperature the following day. I don;t keep the made up solution longer than 48 hours - and make up a fresh batch. Yes it means you waste 2/5 tablet - but it ensures a more accurate and consistent dosing.

Re giving heart medication - As she seems to be doing well on the frusemide diuretic it might be worth just continuing with this for a few days after the antibiotic course finishes and then trying to reduce the dose back to 2mg/kg maintenance dose (as per guinea lynx) . Your vet might suggest withdrawing the diuretic for a few days to see if her breathing worsens....but if it does, you would then need to put her back on the higher dose to clear any fluid build-up before reducing to the maintenance dose. If at this time an X ray shows the heart to be enlarged that would also be grounds for also giving heart medication (fortekor).

Most of my pigs are currently prescribed both heart and diuretic meds in an effort to improve their breathing problems (antibiotics didn;t work and it is not considered to be a respiratory infection - current thinking is either genetically related heart condition or lymphoma or both.....). Not all of them have been Xayed but their breathing has now improved and they're all much perkier.....and I haven;t lost any more piggies since we started this regime (I had already lost 3 to the same problem). The exotics vet said that there shouldn;t be any ill effects being on the heart meds for just a few months . They have now been receiving both meds for 4 months and are going back for a review shortly to determine next steps as to whether to keep on with both meds or to drop the heart med and just keep going with the diuretic (which will probably involve X raying all 7 of them ....ouch to the bank balance)

Hope she continues to improve - it sounds like she is now stabilising and you and your vet will need to decide longer term treatment going forwards.

x
 
Thanks Pebble, she took that last two batchs of frusemide as powder sprinkled onto red kale, and wolfed it down! :) She is definitely a lot better and I would say the most vocal and energetic since we have had her drool

I picked up some of the liquid frusemide today and 2 fortekar tablets. As she is doing so well we are going to wait until the weekend to decide whether to try the fortekar or not. Also stopped the baytril as from last night, as do not think it is making any difference and she really hates taking it.

I hope your gang are still doing grand, it will be a bit of an ouch if you need 7 x-rays. Judith (vet) didn't sugest one yet and as Angel is more alert and her breathing is def not as laboured, I didn't ask. So no idea how much it costs in First Vets - **** not cheap!

Thanks again X
 
Glad to hear that Angel is doing so well. Really hope you find a treatment plan which works, so she continues to improve x
 
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