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Lily Has Possible Bladder Stones - Advice Needed

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Germaine

Germaine

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Hi all,

I noticed Lily crying when urinating on St. Stephens night and had planned on taking her to the vet. She stopped the next day until last night when she started again. Its a quiet enough whimper not a full blown alarm call.
Anyway the vet gave her painkiller injection and antibiotic injection and said that she wanted to treat her for urinary tract infection and see if that cures her but if it doesnt then we have to go back and treat for bladder stones.
We have .4ml baytril(i'm sure she will love it!) and 0.6ml meloxidyl a day for the week.
We want to change her diet to low calcium foods too to help her in case it is stones.
Questions
1. We are using meadow hay is that ok? I bought some excel special hay (for urinary health it said) but it is expensive! There is no timothy hay around us.
2. Broccoli is it ok? Vet said no to broccolli but the leaflet she gave us said florets were low calcium and the stems were high? So is the top green flowery part ok?

3. Also the vet told us to add vitamin C to their diets. We have tried offering them vit c (sugarfree) chewable tabs which they didn't like. Then we sprinkled it on their food which they didn't eat. They don't drink much water between the three of them they have about 60ml a day. Any ideas on how to give them vitamin C or is it not necessary if they are on excel nuggets and fresh veg?
4. On the leaflet it suggests giving Lily 10ml of water a day by syringe. Is this always advised?
 
Sorry Lily isn't feeling too good. Bladder things can be hard to get on top of but here's a few answers to some of your questions but there will be plenty of other options too...

1. Hay and lots of it is ok just don't give alfalfa hay which is higher in calcium and only best for expectant mums and babies.
2. Brocolli can be high calcium so definitely steer clear of the stalk but might be worth cutting it out altogether for a while.
3. Try dissolvable vitamin C in water then syringe it to them. My boys eat the chewable ones but I know lots don't. A good quality dry food along with veggies should give them all the vitamin C they need but a bit extra won't harm. Don't put it in drinking water as it will discourage them all from drinking enough fluid.
4. This is recommended as it is important that Lily is hydrated enough. If she gets dehydrated then concentrated wee makes bladder problems worse. It's worth giving her plenty to flush through her kidneys and bladder.

Your vet can also prescribe cystaid or cystease which is used in cats to help irritable bladders. It can be syringed in a bit of water and helps keep the bladder lining working well. It's main ingredient is glucosamine. One of my piggies had recurrent UTIs and now has cystease regularly to help keep him right.

Also be aware that piggies can learn to cry when they wee in expectation of pain so it can become a habit making it hard to tell when they are better. Urine samples help vets make sure what infection is present and what antibiotic is needed. Pain relief/anti-inflammatory is important so the bladder gets a chance to recover. Antibiotics can make tummies a bit sluggish so try using a probiotic as well to keep the guts moving healthily.

Hope she's feeling better soon.
 
MerryPip said:
Sorry Lily isn't feeling too good. Bladder things can be hard to get on top of but here's a few answers to some of your questions but there will be plenty of other options too...

1. Hay and lots of it is ok just don't give alfalfa hay which is higher in calcium and only best for expectant mums and babies.
2. Brocolli can be high calcium so definitely steer clear of the stalk but might be worth cutting it out altogether for a while.
3. Try dissolvable vitamin C in water then syringe it to them. My boys eat the chewable ones but I know lots don't. A good quality dry food along with veggies should give them all the vitamin C they need but a bit extra won't harm. Don't put it in drinking water as it will discourage them all from drinking enough fluid.
4. This is recommended as it is important that Lily is hydrated enough. If she gets dehydrated then concentrated wee makes bladder problems worse. It's worth giving her plenty to flush through her kidneys and bladder.

Your vet can also prescribe cystaid or cystease which is used in cats to help irritable bladders. It can be syringed in a bit of water and helps keep the bladder lining working well. It's main ingredient is glucosamine. One of my piggies had recurrent UTIs and now has cystease regularly to help keep him right.

Also be aware that piggies can learn to cry when they wee in expectation of pain so it can become a habit making it hard to tell when they are better. Urine samples help vets make sure what infection is present and what antibiotic is needed. Pain relief/anti-inflammatory is important so the bladder gets a chance to recover. Antibiotics can make tummies a bit sluggish so try using a probiotic as well to keep the guts moving healthily.

Hope she's feeling better soon.
Click to expand...
Wow! Thanks for all this advice! She said she wanted to put off putting her on cystaid until she knew it wasn't an infection. If she is still crying after the week we have to take a urine sample and bring it in to be tested so she will do that. I asked about probiotics before but they only prescribe them if they are on antibiotics for a long time. Not a week.
 
Hi my Charlotte suffers from bad UTIs. She is currently having barley water morning and evening as recommended in Peter Gurneys book piggy potions as well as .8 baytril and .3 loxycom. Is there grit in the wee? To check Charlottes wee I feed her a good chunk of cucumber, put her in the carry box with no towel just bare plastic until she wees. I look at the colour to see if there is any blood and I know it is gross but you have to put your finger in the puddle to feel for grit which could indicate a stone. A floury feel is fine, as if you rubbed flour between your fingers but hard sharp sandy bits are not good and I would ask the vet to do an ultrasound. Don't panic too much, a UTI is much more likely than a stone. I always buy probiotics but I can only get them from P@H which I hate but needs must. For a balanced diet http://www.guinealynx.info/chart_CaP.html
 
Sorry Lily is having problems, we have had 3 bladder piggies :( It can be hard to find out what is going on.

Hopefully the Antibiotic will do the trick, if it does not improve it may be worth asking the vet to try Septrin as an Antibiotic, we have had luck with Baytril for UTI's in the past but often Septrin seems to work a little better on UTI's, worth keeping in mind.
Bladder stones can only be diagnosed 100% with an xray, so if the AB's don't work ask your vet to perform one preferably without GA, our vet will pop them in a box or occasionally will just give them a whiff of gas to make them drowsy to save giving a GA. But a UTI is more likely than a bladder stone and often clears up with antibiotics, so try not to worry.

The meloxidyl is metacam and is an anti-inflammatory painkiller, its a high dose (I presume it is the one for cats not dogs at that dose range) You can split the dose to morning and evening to give better pain coverage.

Here is a link to a thread which breaks down food into calcium ranges and shows feeding frequencies halfway down the post http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/...-ratios-explained-diet-advice-included.30297/ Worth a read through.

To get Lily drinking more it may be worth getting some Avipro plus probiotic in http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vetark-Professional-Avipro-100-g/dp/B004FGAV4A/ref=sr_1_1/280-8241034-5070611?ie=UTF8&qid=1388762557&sr=8-1&keywords=avipro plus a little sprinkle in some water and syringed to her will go down well, as piggies love the taste. Treacle would normally drink 15ml in one session when she had UTI's and Cookie our other bladder piggie goes insane for it.

Lots of healing vibes to Lily, I know how frustrating Bladder issues can be, but there are lots of things to try.
 
At the top of our food section you can find two sticky threads to two alternative diets that have been recommended lately; both are quite explicit:
- the ph : ca ratio diet
- low calcium diet

Personally, I have made better experiences with the low calcium diet.

Please also consider the calcium content in pellets and your water! Filtering your water can make a noticeable difference.

Generally, an x-ray will clear the issue whether there is a stone or bladder sludge problem or whether you are just dealing with a urinary tract infection (UTI) or a form of cystitis.
http://www.guinealynx.info/uti.html
http://www.guinealynx.info/stones.html
 
sport_billy said:
Sorry Lily is having problems, we have had 3 bladder piggies :( It can be hard to find out what is going on.

Hopefully the Antibiotic will do the trick, if it does not improve it may be worth asking the vet to try Septrin as an Antibiotic, we have had luck with Baytril for UTI's in the past but often Septrin seems to work a little better on UTI's, worth keeping in mind.
Bladder stones can only be diagnosed 100% with an xray, so if the AB's don't work ask your vet to perform one preferably without GA, our vet will pop them in a box or occasionally will just give them a whiff of gas to make them drowsy to save giving a GA. But a UTI is more likely than a bladder stone and often clears up with antibiotics, so try not to worry.

The meloxidyl is metacam and is an anti-inflammatory painkiller, its a high dose (I presume it is the one for cats not dogs at that dose range) You can split the dose to morning and evening to give better pain coverage.

Here is a link to a thread which breaks down food into calcium ranges and shows feeding frequencies halfway down the post http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/...-ratios-explained-diet-advice-included.30297/ Worth a read through.

To get Lily drinking more it may be worth getting some Avipro plus probiotic in http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vetark-Professional-Avipro-100-g/dp/B004FGAV4A/ref=sr_1_1/280-8241034-5070611?ie=UTF8&qid=1388762557&sr=8-1&keywords=avipro plus a little sprinkle in some water and syringed to her will go down well, as piggies love the taste. Treacle would normally drink 15ml in one session when she had UTI's and Cookie our other bladder piggie goes insane for it.

Lots of healing vibes to Lily, I know how frustrating Bladder issues can be, but there are lots of things to try.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your advice. We had been on guinealynx on the way back and stocked up on some low calcium veg. We bought strawberries on a guinea pig experts advice (low calcium high vit c.) and gave them all a segment of one when we came home and NONE of them would touch it!
I tried to order the probiotic there but it wouldn't let me deliver it to my address (Ireland). I will have a look for something/somewhere that might do it for Ireland.
 
Wiebke said:
At the top of our food section you can find two sticky threads to two alternative diets that have been recommended lately; both are quite explicit:
- the ph : ca ratio diet
- low calcium diet

Personally, I have made better experiences with the low calcium diet.

Please also consider the calcium content in pellets and your water! Filtering your water can make a noticeable difference.

Generally, an x-ray will clear the issue whether there is a stone or bladder sludge problem or whether you are just dealing with a urinary tract infection (UTI) or a form of cystitis.
http://www.guinealynx.info/uti.html
http://www.guinealynx.info/stones.html
Click to expand...
I have looked through the two stickies already. I found the Ca, Phosphorus one more confusing. Think I will start with low Ca and see how I go. I have Burgess excel pellets.. Are they ok for calcium? I will start to filter their water. It was something I had heard about and thought I sould start anyway! Thanks for your advice!
 
piggyme234 said:
Hi my Charlotte suffers from bad UTIs. She is currently having barley water morning and evening as recommended in Peter Gurneys book piggy potions as well as .8 baytril and .3 loxycom. Is there grit in the wee? To check Charlottes wee I feed her a good chunk of cucumber, put her in the carry box with no towel just bare plastic until she wees. I look at the colour to see if there is any blood and I know it is gross but you have to put your finger in the puddle to feel for grit which could indicate a stone. A floury feel is fine, as if you rubbed flour between your fingers but hard sharp sandy bits are not good and I would ask the vet to do an ultrasound. Don't panic too much, a UTI is much more likely than a stone. I always buy probiotics but I can only get them from P@H which I hate but needs must. For a balanced diet http://www.guinealynx.info/chart_CaP.html
Click to expand...
Thanks for your advice! I will check her later for this. Where do you get barley water? How much do you give her?
 
Germaine said:
Thanks for your advice! I will check her later for this. Where do you get barley water? How much do you give her?
Click to expand...

Barley water you have to make up from Pearl barley, you can get it in supermarkets or health food shops, once boiled up it makes a viscous liquid which you need to syringe to her. It doesn't keep very well though & you should make it fresh daily. Have you syringed piggies before? If not, you need 1ml syringes from your vets or you can order online, syringe up liquid & then sit the piggy on your lap & place the tip of the syringe into the mouth & towards the inside cheek, because you must not syringe straight to the back of the throat as she could inhale fluid into the lungs. This is best doing in small amounts, like 0.2ml at a time, let her swallow then syringe a little more, it's safer that way.

I know Oxbow Cavy cuisine dry food is low calcium, but it is very expensive & mine hated it, so I now only give mine a tablespoon or less of pellets like Wagg Optimum or Burgess Blackcurrant & Oregano daily. Reducing pellets & increasing the hay (Which they should have plenty of anyway) is best :) The other alternative to Cystease are Cartrophen injections once a month, mine has been on these for around 6 months now as she is a bladder pig, she has a lot of grit in her urine.
 
Yes, unfortunately we have syringed before! Baytril! Germaine hated it! We could get the metacam into her without too much fussing but Baytril we had to wrap her and cover her eyes, let her sniff something nice then WHAM Baytril! She HATED the stuff. Everyone says it is bitter. I'm hoping as Lily is less highly strung than wrapping her will be enough to calm her. That adventure starts tomorrow. Also I ordered that Probiotic you suggested sports_billy. I found somewhere that would deliver to Ireland. Same name but different label. It said it was a probiotic for all animals with vit C included so could be two birds with one stone there!
 
Is there any nutritional difference between burgess blackcurrent and oregano and normal burgess excel?
 
Germaine said:
Is there any nutritional difference between burgess blackcurrent and oregano and normal burgess excel?
Click to expand...
I would personally stay away from Burgess excel - off the top of my head the calcium content is about 8g per kilo - there are much lower calcium foods - science selective is about 2.5 - I have a kidney stone boy with bladder sludge & my vet recommends Vetcare multimodal food for guinea pigs - you get it from VETUK on line - its £5.99 for a kilo - it also has cranberry extract,echinachea and dandelion extract - my vet has 6 pigs herself and 3 bladder pigs - it makes A huge difference within a few days of changing over to it - if I run out and put him on something else (even at 2.5g of calcium) it also makes a huge difference quickly the other way - it looks like long bits of shredded wheat - fibafirst is very similar and can be picked up at some Pets at home branches - it is also 0.8 or 0.6 calcium per kilo - it costs £3.50 for 350gs - so all in all even with the £1.99 postage it is still cheaper to get the Vetcare multimodal.Vetacare multimodal is also a low protein food so its also good for porky piggies.
 
Our vet also recommends the Vetcare multimodal for our boy with Bladder sludge.

At this stage he is unsure whether he likes it or not, but we are sticking with it a I have read some really good things. We have also switched him onto bottle water as the Calcium content in our tap water is 70mg/l and we have found a bottled water which is only 10mg/l - he also prefers the taste so drinks more.

We've also cut romaine lettuce out of his diet and introduced more pepper and increased amounts of cucumber. All these things make a big difference to him so hopefully you will see similar results once you adjust Lily's diet.
 
My boys suffer from bladder problems. Gilbert has had it for most of his life and was at the vets for it again today.

This is what I do for him.

His diet consists of green beans, cucumber, pepper, coriander and celery.

NO PELLETS at all! These are the main contributors I have noticed when he is squealing in pain. I tested it as well by cutting them out completely and then giving him a handful. As soon as I did he was back having problems.

Limit readigrass.

I give him timothy hay and normal hay.

When he has a bad flare up, like the other day, I give him cystease from the vets and I sprinkle it on his cucumber and feed him it that way as he won't take it any other way.

Again this is how I deal with my two guinea pigs who have it, Gilbert being the main suffered.
 
She has had three dosesof antibiotics so far and this morning when I put out fresh hay she popcorned! First time she has ever done that since we got her. I also saw her urinate twice without crying. Does this mean it probably was a urinary tract infection instead of bladder stones? I hope so!
 
guineaguy said:
Our vet also recommends the Vetcare multimodal for our boy with Bladder sludge.

At this stage he is unsure whether he likes it or not, but we are sticking with it a I have read some really good things. We have also switched him onto bottle water as the Calcium content in our tap water is 70mg/l and we have found a bottled water which is only 10mg/l - he also prefers the taste so drinks more.

We've also cut romaine lettuce out of his diet and introduced more pepper and increased amounts of cucumber. All these things make a big difference to him so hopefully you will see similar results once you adjust Lily's diet.
Click to expand...
We had her on a diet of peppers cucumber, butterhead lettuce, some sweetcorn, some parsnip, some carrot. For three days. We also bought some expensive burgess hay that said it was for urinary health! They love it but its really short so it wont stay in the rack! All three popcorned when I put it in though so its worth it!
 
Germaine said:
She has had three dosesof antibiotics so far and this morning when I put out fresh hay she popcorned! First time she has ever done that since we got her. I also saw her urinate twice without crying. Does this mean it probably was a urinary tract infection instead of bladder stones? I hope so!
Click to expand...

That's a good sign, sounds like it could be a UTI, seeing as she is not crying. Lots of healing vibes her way x
 
Thanks! She actually hates the baytril and metacam stuff! I thought Germaine was tough! lily screeches when you try to give it to her! 4out of 7does down now though so on the home stretch!
 
Baytril tastes awful, i tried a little to see what the fuss was about... Not nice at all. Normally piggies love metacam, ours will run off with the syringe :))
 
sport_billy said:
Baytril tastes awful, i tried a little to see what the fuss was about... Not nice at all. Normally piggies love metacam, ours will run off with the syringe :))
Click to expand...

I've tried Oxbow and Emeraid critical care food before but never thought to try Baytril!

I might just take your word though that it's not very nice!
 
sport_billy said:
Baytril tastes awful, i tried a little to see what the fuss was about... Not nice at all. Normally piggies love metacam, ours will run off with the syringe :))
Click to expand...
You tried it? Brave! Not sure i feel that urge now! :vom:
 
guineaguy said:
I've tried Oxbow and Emeraid critical care food before but never thought to try Baytril!

I might just take your word though that it's not very nice!
Click to expand...
What did they taste like? Am I the only one not tasting guinea pig food?
 
So Lily hadn't been crying since Monday and today then after we gave her her final dose of Baytril and metacam she weed on us and cried (softly but definite pain). After the Metacam worked she hasn't cried since. Any ideas? Ringing the vet tomorrow.
 
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