Nitrates in Green Veggies, also too much Protein Causing Bladder Stones?

[Storm1974]

So I'm having a discussion on a US based Guinea Pig FB group, and we are discussing bladder stones and someone has posted about some research by a Dr Eva Stoffell about too much protein and nitrates in food (Mainly vegetables) can be a big contributor to the formation of stones!

I have attached an image below to help explain as I'm in a bit of a hurry right now, but they said that green leafy veg (Including lettuce) should be limited because it's high in nitrates.

And here are some of the comments I have copied:

"My vet didn’t think that there should be a problem with different lettuces, but I read before that green leafy veggies should be reduced.
Now reading the above study by Dr. Stoffell, it sounds like too much protein from nitrate and nitrogen-rich veggies may be one reason for stones.
I just googled “veggies high in nitrates” - and saw green, leafy vegetables are actually much richer in nitrates".

And somebody else added this:

"In the Netherlands there was a doctor (dr Eva Stoffels) that has don a lot of research about this subject. She found out that nitrate plays a verry important role in bladder stones. In Short,… Nitrate causes calcium to stick together as i understood. So low calcium dieet is Not the solution,.. Guinea piggs need calcium.
Try to avoid the nitrate and give veggies that contain enough water so he can pee it out. Ofcourse be careful if the poop gets thinner then give a Little less wattery veggies.
I also use an alternative chinese medicine called “chansa piedra”,.. works realy well".

And this:

"there is a dutch website with Information about it,.. maybe you can translate, it was also made with dr Eva Stoffels. Caviawijzer.nl is the sites name. It says for example Most green herbs like mint, basil, coriander etc.
Endive, spinach most lettuce. It is Not That you can Not give it but Not in big batches daily,.. and combine it with other veggies".


I think by 'chunks' they mean pellets. So, anyway, I'm wondering about cutting down on their green veggies, I do limit pellets but want them to get their Vit D because they're not outside at all, so don't want to cut them out completely. Even though I was told by somebody that the Versele Lago pellets I feed are terrible for giving pigs sludge!

 

[A Guinea Pig]

That’s interesting. I know nothing about that, but am willing to learn and look at the research. Always thought that it was food high in oxalates that would make the calcium come together and that the protein would help keep the piggies healthy. I could be completely wrong though! I’ve never been to vet school and am lacking those 8 years of knowledge. I’m interested in what other people on the forum have to say. They did note to feed a muesli pellets in the photo which I have never seen recommended anywhere else.

 

[Storm1974]

That’s interesting. I know nothing about that, but am willing to learn and look at the research. Always thought that it was food high in oxalates that would make the calcium come together and that the protein would help keep the piggies healthy. I could be completely wrong though! I’ve never been to vet school and am lacking those 8 years of knowledge. I’m interested in what other people on the forum have to say. They did note to feed a muesli pellets in the photo which I have never seen recommended anywhere else.

I know it's quite confusing.

I don't think the muesli idea is good though.

Re the oxylates... On here it says they aren't a problem...

[HEADING=3]Oxalates[/HEADING]
The low incidence of calcium oxalate stones may indicate that for the majority of guinea pigs, dietary oxalate is not a contributing factor in stone formation. Dietary oxalate binds with calcium. Often foods higher in oxalic acid are also higher in calcium, providing the calcium needed to bind with the oxalate.
Guinea Lynx :: Bladder Stones

I've also heard that soy is a contributing factor. I never feed any soy anyway because most of it's GM and piggies shouldn't really be eating it.

 

[Storm1974]

That’s interesting. I know nothing about that, but am willing to learn and look at the research. Always thought that it was food high in oxalates that would make the calcium come together and that the protein would help keep the piggies healthy. I could be completely wrong though! I’ve never been to vet school and am lacking those 8 years of knowledge. I’m interested in what other people on the forum have to say. They did note to feed a muesli pellets in the photo which I have never seen recommended anywhere else.

Some more info here on calcium/oxylates...
Guinea Pig Urinary Stones: Bladder + Kidney Stones + Sludge

As I said, it's very confusing, it can also be nothing to do with diet, and genetic.

I think I'm just going to get some Potassium Citrate and I'm also giving the Sherwood Urinary tablets, as preventatives!

I believe that is really really bad news if Guinea Pigs (males especially) get stones, so really want to try and prevent them as much as I can!

 

[Piggies&buns]

I think in some cases if somebody is giving handfuls of lettuce in large quantities then perhaps there is benefit in giving less to ensure a better overall balance. But our diet guides have always shown a limited amount of lettuce - one leaf of a little gem (if I remember correctly). A small amount of pepper, a couple of sprigs of herb. I think if you are feeding in those amounts then limiting further wouldn’t be the way to go.
If protein is the issue, I would think more protein comes into the diet via pellets than plants/veg. So it still comes back limiting pellets much more than limiting veg but actually providing higher amounts of grass and fresh forage is maybe still better than higher amounts of veg.
The diet for my animals is primarily hay, with lots of grass and wild forage. I do feed herbs, leafy greens and peppers. Where I limit much more strictly is pellets. They get less than one tablespoon each and only 2-3 times a week. A balance of everything and everything in moderation.
We havent had any incidents of stones or sludge in my boys.
I personally wouldn’t choose to give ‘medications’ or supplements as preventatives.
To my knowledge, potassium citrate is used to reduce acidity in the urine but piggies naturally have alkaline urine anyway so there is little for potassium citrate to actually do.

Stones aren’t good. They can be more of an issue in boars. But they can also be a one off incident and never reoccur. As you say, nothing can be done about genetics.

It’s probably also worth remembering that, in every health aspect not just stones, what we see is disproportionate because a lot of people only come here when there is a health issue. The view of how prevalent a health issue is may be tilted because of the nature of our forum.

 

[Piggies&buns]

To add, good urination so good fluid intake and well diluted urine will really help - as it does with us humans. I would put that above giving potassium citrate as one of the best ways to encourage good bladder health and to prevent sludge and stone formation.

 

[Storm1974]

To add, good urination so good fluid intake and well diluted urine will really help - as it does with us humans. I would put that above giving potassium citrate as one of the best ways to encourage good bladder health and to prevent sludge and stone formation.

Neither of our pigs (Well Herbert does VERY rarely and only ever a tiny bit at a time) drink water from their bottles, so I give them quite a lot of cucumber and also mix their veggies into a bowl each and then add water (and the urinary tablet) and mix it all in really well, so it covers all the veg. I do this twice a day.

 

[Storm1974]

I now buy the bottled Tesco spring water because it has the lowest amount of calcium..I did have the zero water filter, but it became too expensive to keep buying the filters.

 

[piggieminder]

I had a vet a few years ago who has sadly now moved on. This vet was a piggie specialist and had studied diet and stones/sludge. Her advise was feed only leafy green veg, cucumber and pepper, no spinach and very limited if any kale. A small to medium size dandelion leaf daily is a good aid to urination. Fresh grass daily. A small amount of pellets. I feed 6-8 pellets 2 x daily.
I don't know where the person got their information re Verselle Laga pellets @Storm1974 they have been my preferred ones for many years now as they don't contain wheat or soy, my boys don't leave calcium deposits on the fleece when they have those. It must be the Cavia Complete though some of their other's don't have very good ingredients.

 

[4harmony2]

Ive been having trouble getting the versele laga Cavia lately where are you getting yours ? I need the 8kg bags

 

[piggieminder]

Ive been having trouble getting the versele laga Cavia lately where are you getting yours ? I need the 8kg bags

I can't get it either, my last bag is running out. I had a message from Hay Experts last week to say it was back in stock but when I looked they only had 500gm bags!

Edited to say - just found 8kg bags at Time for Paws £29.99.

 

[Storm1974]

I had a vet a few years ago who has sadly now moved on. This vet was a piggie specialist and had studied diet and stones/sludge. Her advise was feed only leafy green veg, cucumber and pepper, no spinach and very limited if any kale. A small to medium size dandelion leaf daily is a good aid to urination. Fresh grass daily. A small amount of pellets. I feed 6-8 pellets 2 x daily.
I don't know where the person got their information re Verselle Laga pellets @Storm1974 they have been my preferred ones for many years now as they don't contain wheat or soy, my boys don't leave calcium deposits on the fleece when they have those. It must be the Cavia Complete though some of their other's don't have very good ingredients.

Do you think daily corriander is ok? My boys adore it!

I'm actually thinking of cutting out Romaine as only Herbert likes it and it usually goes to waste. Could I give them just corriander instead?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Do you think daily corriander is ok? My boys adore it!

I'm actually thinking of cutting out Romaine as only Herbert likes it and it usually goes to waste. Could I give them just corriander instead?

One or two sprigs of coriander each day is fine.
While it is ok for daily use in a small amount, it is a bit higher in oxalate.

Mine have had some every day for years.

 

[piggieminder]

I agree with Piggies and Buns a couple of bits a day is fine.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi

There is always new research; nutrition is very much a minefield. Just about every food has been ruled out at some point or other. It is interesting but we have to wait and see how it works out in practice and what the longer term consensus is going to be.

What seems to work best is to reduce the amount of pellets and filter your water (especially in a mainly hard water country like the UK) and to feed a little of everything in terms of veg; ideally a mix with something watery and mildly diuretic to encourage urination. Magnesium is for instance only found in veg higher in calcium but pellets are not enriched with it so these veg and the occasional herbs do help with the supplementary role that wild forage used to have.

Recreating that is not easy since not everybody has access to plenty of unsprayed, dog pee free grass, and it doesn't grow at all times of the year so our pet diet is in reality always a big compromise of what is available, affordable and what works as a combination.

There seems to be an empirical soft spot in the diet where the balance is just right; on either side of that soft spot you can get stones. The problem is that this soft spot is not quite the same for everybody since we have all a different quality of water - not just calcium but also in terms of other minerals contained in it.

What was very noticeable was that vets noticed a big rise in bladder stones in the wake of the pandemic Lockdowns when fresh food shortages meant that the dietary balance was not achievable, especially for more urban populations. I still remember lively the week when I ended up with the last 5 very sorry looking peppers in the near empty fresh food section to feed my 27 piggies for a week and any other veg that was on offer was on the high calcium/oxalates side. Great when you are shielding...
I did end up with one urethral stone myself - the first in nearly 10 years. Thankfully, my small lawn was growing well and helped to make up for any veg shortages because otherwise I would have really struggled.

Unless your diet is grossly overladen with calcium, other factors do play significantly into the formation of stones: a genetic disposition, not being a great natural drinker (which you cannot influence) and something suddenly going wrong in the calcium absorption process. Some piggies won't develop stones and sludge while their mates do on the same diet... but those that develop stones have generally got more than one factor playing into it.

I would recommend especially new owners or owners with anxiety issues to please not panic and to go too far in one direction or other. Please do not use additives and just feed a little of everything instead of cutting whole food groups out all together. Go with what has shown to work in the daily longer term practice, and that includes foods with calcium, oxalates and nitrates. You are much less likely to end up with stones that way. That is still holding as much now as it has in previous decades about the phosphorus : calcium ratio, about high oxalates and now nitrates. The proof is very much in the bowl contents.

 

[Storm1974]

One or two sprigs of coriander each day is fine.
While it is ok for daily use in a small amount, it is a bit higher in oxalate.

Mine have had some every day for years.

I didn't know corriander contained oxylate.

This says oxylates aren't a problem though...


[HEADING=3]Oxalates[/HEADING]
'The low incidence of calcium oxalate stones may indicate that for the majority of guinea pigs, dietary oxalate is not a contributing factor in stone formation. Dietary oxalate binds with calcium. Often foods higher in oxalic acid are also higher in calcium, providing the calcium needed to bind with the oxalate.'
Guinea Lynx :: Bladder Stones

 

[Piggies&buns]

I didn't know corriander contained oxylate.

This says oxylates aren't a problem though...


[HEADING=3]Oxalates[/HEADING]
'The low incidence of calcium oxalate stones may indicate that for the majority of guinea pigs, dietary oxalate is not a contributing factor in stone formation. Dietary oxalate binds with calcium. Often foods higher in oxalic acid are also higher in calcium, providing the calcium needed to bind with the oxalate.'
Guinea Lynx :: Bladder Stones

Our advice has always been to keep both limited.
My vet also advises to keep both limited.

 

[Wiebke]

I didn't know corriander contained oxylate.

This says oxylates aren't a problem though...


[HEADING=3]Oxalates[/HEADING]
'The low incidence of calcium oxalate stones may indicate that for the majority of guinea pigs, dietary oxalate is not a contributing factor in stone formation. Dietary oxalate binds with calcium. Often foods higher in oxalic acid are also higher in calcium, providing the calcium needed to bind with the oxalate.'
Guinea Lynx :: Bladder Stones

Oxalates don't seem to be as much of a problem in my own experience as well - I have not had any bladder stone issues by keeping on feeding veg higher in oxalates. Keep in mind that there is not exactly a lot of it in a little fresh coriander/cilantro herb - or with occasionally feeding other herbs for different trace elements!
The same goes for favouring greens/collard greens over kale - greens are higher in oxalates than kale but feeding them once a week doesn't lead to stones in our long term owner experience with dietary experimentation on this forum. You need one of them or other cabbages/brassicas for magnesium; greens are quite simply put the ones that come with the least piggy problems. That said, if I am cooking with kale, my piggies are getting a little in their dinner, too. The same goes for any leftover spinach. In order for them to become a problem means feeding them pretty much daily or at least every few days. Every now and them as a little treat doesn't hurt. You cannot eliminate all calcium from the diet, either, without paying the price.

The problem with diet is that pretty much anything has drawbacks but in order to offer a wide range of trace elements and nutrients you have to constantly make compromises. That is the reason why dietary changes by cutting out whole food groups can all too easily lead to problems in other areas. It is all about moderation and about not swinging too much in just one direction.

The two dietary changes that have really made all the difference for the Tribe in terms of bladder stones and increased longevity was to filter the water and to reduce the amount of pellets (and not to feed any dry mixes). These measures have cut down on the calcium intake and have given me more leeway with the veg selection. No edible veg is completely off the table as long as you use them in moderation and see them rather as an enrichment treat.
Once you understand that veg, forage, pellets and any treats are counting as one big food group (which replaces the supplementary role that wild forage used to have), you can then balance things out much better than if you stare that just one part of it but lose sight of the whole.

We will always get new insights which will create short term fads that are followed by the experiences with the problems they cause in other areas and the pendulum will swing back again.

 

[eileen]

i feed everything in moderation,ive not had any bladder stones in 4 years.i am not willing to obscess too much.i feed pellets in small portions.

 

[Hath]

This is such a rabbit hole. I've been obsessed with low calcium food, watery veggies and filtering water only to come across article that claimed excessive vitamin C causes kidney and bladder stones. I just gave up at that point lol!

 

[Wiebke]

This is such a rabbit hole. I've been obsessed with low calcium food, watery veggies and filtering water only to come across article that claimed excessive vitamin C causes kidney and bladder stones. I just gave up at that point lol!

It is a true rabbit hole. The good news is that our diet recommendations of a moderated diet of a bit of everything on here rely on our practical experiences that have stood the test of time. We know that it actually works and that bladder stones and sludge in our own piggies are very rare. Diet is a balancing act. Too much in any direction makes you fall off. If you focus on just one aspect you are very likely to lose sight of the overall picture.
As more serious research into bladder stones, kidney function and diet is finally picking up, it makes the picture rather more complex rather than simplifying since it adds and highlights more contributing factors.

Our diet recommendation has always ways been to not supplement with extra vitamin C unless there is a medical reason. The scurvy cases we are confronted with on here are usually caused because of over-supplementation and not because of real deficiency; with very few exceptions in piggies from true neglect/long term malnutrition backgrounds that have ended up in private hands and not in a rescue. Please also realise that real damage comes from long term gross over-supplementation. But we haven't ever been confronted with one of our own unsupplemented piggies picked up for vitamin C deficiency by a vet in nearly 20 years of this forum. That, I think, is really the proof in the pudding.

Yes, guinea pigs need vitamin C but they get loads from the current rich green spring grass (which is the reason why they switched off the gene complex for production of vitamin C in the body), much less from dry grass an hay; they get in their fresh food, in garden forage, in reinforced pellets and - if ill - you can opt for probiotics with added vitamin C if you are not using recovery formula that is enriched with it. You have to add it all up. It is in most things a piggy eats in a day on a good diet.

Please do not stop your vitamin C instantly because that can cause scurv symptoms since your guinea pigs' body has got used to high levels; you will have to very gradually reduce any amounts over several weeks to give the body time to adapt. Please also respect that the research results are referring to gross over-supplementation, as recommended especially on US websites.

PS: Please introduce any fresh rich spring grass carefully to guinea pigs that are not used to it. It could cause severe diarrhea and potentially fatal bloating if done wrongly.
Feeding Grass And Preparing Your Piggies For Lawn Time