• Discussions taking place within this forum are intended for the purpose of assisting you in discussing options with your vet. Any other use of advice given here is done so at your risk, is solely your responsibility and not that of this forum or its owner. Before posting it is your responsibility you abide by this Statement

Other explanations?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
617
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Edinburgh
A few weeks ago I noticed by piggy sam was making a moaning noise when doing the toitlet....couldn't decide when it was peeing or pooping.

He has been on baytril now for 4 days and was also on baytril on 5 days before this (I had to change vets).

However, I have now established he does not make the noise when he pees. But it is when he is doing his poops which he eats (Can't remember the name).

I know it could still be a UTI or bladder stones but he doesn't even make the noise when he does his normal poops only the ones he eats.

He has a vet appointment for thursday to see how he is doing on the baytril but wondered if any one has any ideas?
 

Wiebke

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
78,789
Reaction score
57,287
Points
3,466
Location
Coventry UK
How old is he? It could be arthritis in an older piggy.
 

Laura-CCC4

Senior Guinea Pig
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
11,538
Reaction score
251
Points
950
Location
Cambs, UK
He doesn't suffer impaction at all, does he?

I have noticed some pigs can hunch and strain a little when expelling a caecotroph, I've not heard of pigs making any noise though.
 
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
617
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Edinburgh
Nope no impaction.

Other than his moaning sound and slightly hunched posture when pooping he is completely healthy and very active.
 

missy

Adult Guinea Pig
Joined
Feb 2, 2010
Messages
1,855
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Location
Buckinghamshire, UK
One of my boars (Yossi) also sometimes makes a noise, indicating discomfort, when expelling a caecotroph. As with your pig, it doesn't happen when peeing or expelling 'normal' poo pellets or at any other time.

Yossi's 3 yrs old so initially I wondered if it could perhaps be the start of impaction problems, but so far it hasn't developed into that (i.e. the pellets are properly formed and nothing actually gets stuck!) In Yossi's case I don't think it's arthritis related as it happens only when actually expelling - after making the noise he retrieves the pellet straight away, no problem. Saying that though, it could still perhaps be muscle related? Anyway Yossi's been doing this for a few months now but most days he's fine and apparently pain-free.

My Vet thought it could be due to a lack of fibre. As Yossi always gets unlimited good quality hay already, she suggested that I increase his fibre intake by adding a high fibre supplement/probiotic to his veg - she suggested Protexin Pro Fibre for Rabbits. (I didn't try the Protexin one but I do give a tiny sprinkle of probiotic most days).

Yossi very rarely drinks for himself and I think this may cause or contribute to this problem, so I syringe-feed him water to supplement his daily intake and make sure he's not dehydrated. I figure that, as well as helping to keep the caecotrophs well formed and not too dry/hard, it may also help with the production of mucous/natural lubrication needed to actually expel these pellets with ease.

I've also found that Yossi seems much better when I follow a strict veg diet for him, like Ratewatchers. I don't know if it's the ca : ph ratio which helps or if it's something else, but when I follow it meticulously his 'episodes' are much less frequent.

Basically as long as I watch his veg and make sure he gets plenty of water, then the problem happens quite rarely. On the very rare occasions that he seems particularly bad, i.e. more than 1 painful episode in a day, then I'll give him some Metacam which seems to help.

I'd love to find out what is actually causing this problem. I'm seriously considering trying Yossi on Cystease, thinking that glucosamine may well help to reduce any possible inflammation in the intestines/caecum/colon or wherever.

Hope you manage to find a solution for Sam very soon. I agree that ruling out stones is important (I did the same for Yossi). Has the Vet tested Sam's urine at all, to test for infection or the presence of blood? If your Vet thinks there is an infection in his bladder/urinary tract and wants to keep him on antibiotics, then perhaps ask to try Septrin, as many consider this to be more effective than Baytril in treating UTIs etc. It's also worth asking for an anti-inflammatory too (i.e. Rimadyl or Metacam) as this help will ease any pain.

Good luck x
 
Last edited:

Pebble

Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
3,030
Reaction score
1,489
Points
880
Location
Sussex
Beech has been suffering similarly now for the last year. On wednesday he is going in for surgery for a tumour on his eyelid ...but at the same time they are going to X ray him good and proper ref his gut problems. Vet thinks he has an inflammation around the valve that permits food to enter the colon from the caecum...hence why he is in pain but eats normally (yet whimpers after food for ages) and has problems expressing his caceotrophs....however we will see what wednesday's results bring. I will post back on your thread as I think this is of interest to a lot of piggie owners.

Bottom line is, assuming it's nothing more serious than the valve inflammation, metacam as a painkiller and anti-inflammatory will need to be given ....it will be long term treatment for Beechie...but at least he will hopefully have a better quality of life than currently and perk up a bit!

Hopeflly Beechie's experience can hep you, your vet....and Yossi

x
 

missy

Adult Guinea Pig
Joined
Feb 2, 2010
Messages
1,855
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Location
Buckinghamshire, UK
Beech has been suffering similarly now for the last year....Vet thinks he has an inflammation around the valve that permits food to enter the colon from the caecum...hence why he is in pain but eats normally (yet whimpers after food for ages) and has problems expressing his caceotrophs....however we will see what wednesday's results bring. I will post back on your thread as I think this is of interest to a lot of piggie owners.

Sorry to hear of another piggy suffering from the same/a similar thing.

Now that you mention it, my Yossi also sometimes makes a kind of whimpering noise after eating, but I've only ever noticed it after he's eaten his veg - his pellets/hay doesn't seem to trigger it. It seems to start around 30 mins after eating but doesn't last too long, maybe a few minutes on and off. As far as I can tell, it sounds more like mild-ish discomfort, rather than severe sharp pains, as he doesn't actually squeak, he just kind of grumbles for a while, if that makes any sense.

Because I've only heard it after eating veg, I'd always associated it with that and assumed that it was some kind of intolerance to certain veg. I've gone round in circles, trying to identify the offending food(s). Not sure if it was just a coincidence but I've noticed that romaine lettuce definitely seems to set off this pain, unless I cut out the hard stalky bits and ribs from the leaves, so I thought it may be to do with the lactucarium - the milky white fluid. Since I've been more strict with his veg diet (ca : ph ratio-wise) this pain has also occurred much less often but that could well be a fluke, I just don't know.

His pain after eating seems to have started around the same time that he started having difficulty expressing caecotrophs, so your Vet's theory certainly seems logical here too. Yossi doesn't seem to suffer every day and any pain does seem to be fairly fleeting but obviously I'd love to erradicate it as much as possible, so any tips would be fantastic!

I know you're hot on piggy health, Pebble. In your opinion, do you think glucosamine could be of any benefit at all, in cases like this? I know Metacam will always reduce inflammation but just wondered if Cystease might also be a viable long term option.

Thanks for the help. Good luck with Beech's op - hope all goes well x


Twopiggies - I'm really glad you started this thread as it seems that this problem could be much more common that I'd realised. Fingers crossed we can figure it all out :)
 

Pebble

Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
3,030
Reaction score
1,489
Points
880
Location
Sussex
Yep - whimpering 30 mins - 2 hrs but only after veggies.....not severe but clearly mild, continuing discomfort and enough to send him into a corner all day but not fluff out his fur. We tried an exclusion diet to identify a particular offending veg....but that didn;t work and basically it is sporadic, only occurs after veggies...but no particular veggie triggers it....although we've cut out brassicas and any pre-packaged sald/spinach that is over a day old as they seem to be worse than most

My vet too has suggested more fibre...and I have found fibreplex helps keep the poos solid (Beechie sometimes like tonight gets large squishy lumps of sticky poos for no reason and needs help...at other time they are very dry..and again he needs help..it's jsut like irritable bowel! )

Also the zantac is really helping keeping the gut moving and reduces the impaction problems

I thought Cystease is for bladders so I;ve never given it a second thought....glucosamine I haven;t talked about with the vet but will do on thursday once we have Beechies X rays back... and let you know his response to both.....

x
 

Pebble

Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
3,030
Reaction score
1,489
Points
880
Location
Sussex
Sorry twopiggies - brain only half working tonight. I too thought baldder/stones problems and we have also got urine samples being tested to rule this out - also hence the X rays....which were clear for stones last year. So yes, you need to rule out sludge/stones forming.

Has Sam been neutered?

Beechie has had a urine infection/issue previously and now can be slightly incontinent. At first (ie last year) I put it down to post-neutering complications by an extremely crass locum vet (and am still of a mind to think this is a part of the cause)....but in view of the tenderness around his hind leg/belly and the fact he won;t let anyone go near this area I think (and so deos the vet) that something has happened to his gut (whether during the neutering or subsequently remains to be seen). At least now he has a decent vet........

Hopefully you will be able to work out the cause and get something to help Sam....will come back here thursday to update you on vet's thinking for Beechie's problems/possible meds

x
 

missy

Adult Guinea Pig
Joined
Feb 2, 2010
Messages
1,855
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Location
Buckinghamshire, UK
I thought Cystease is for bladders so I;ve never given it a second thought....glucosamine I haven;t talked about with the vet but will do on thursday once we have Beechies X rays back... and let you know his response to both.....

x

Cystease is marketed for bladder problems but basically just contains glucosamine.

I know exactly what you mean about struggling to find patterns and conclusive results when it comes to identifying 'problem' foods. I've also found that brassicas seem to have an effect more often than most veg, but find it pretty impossible to follow Ratewatchers without including brassicas, so I am giving a little until I can figure out a better diet plan. (Obviously if he starts suffering badly then I'll cut it out completely, but for now it seems more important to maintain the correct ca : ph) Dill was the only other food which I found seemed to trigger pain more often than not (but not always!).

Beech sounds to be suffering much worse than my Yossi but the problems you've described sound identical. Hope all becomes clear on Thursday so you know how best to treat him, poor thing, with his eye problem too x
 
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
617
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Edinburgh
Wow lots of info to read....hadn't managed to get on this in a couple of days.

Sam has had a urine sample (which is one of the hardest things to do!) and came back all clear. We decided to keep him on baytril,I suggested septrin as I have it in the house, didn't want him to build immunity to both antibiotics.

Nope Sam isn't nutured.

So should I get him an xray? I am pretty positive now it's not his bladder. Vets is tomorrow morning.....oh decisions decisions!

Missy now that you mention romaine lettace I only started buying this for the pigs a few weeks ago and this only started a few weeks ago....maybe just a coincidence.

I haven't been home much the past few days and it is only occasional with Sam so haven't heard anything. Home today so will hopefully see if it is still happening.

Pebble please let me know how you get on today. Hopefully all goes ok.

Eilidh :)
 

missy

Adult Guinea Pig
Joined
Feb 2, 2010
Messages
1,855
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Location
Buckinghamshire, UK
So should I get him an xray? I am pretty positive now it's not his bladder. Vets is tomorrow morning.....oh decisions decisions!

Missy now that you mention romaine lettace I only started buying this for the pigs a few weeks ago and this only started a few weeks ago....maybe just a coincidence.

As I understand it, if stones are present then, in the vast majority of cases, there would be blood in the urine although I believe that in quite rare cases there can still be stones without bloody urine.

Will your Vet do an xray without anaesthetic? If you do get an xray done then at least you'll be able to check for sludge/stones and hopefully rule that out, for your peace of mind.....although I can see why you're thinking that stones is perhaps quite unlikely, especially if he doesn't seem to be in pain when peeing/pooping.

In Yossi's case we did xray (to rule out sludge/stones) but at that time I thought that his pain was when doing normal poos, and he also kept displaying symptoms of Cystitis, so the issue was somewhat clouded back then, with various things going on at the same time. It was a little while before I realised that his pain was actually only on passing caecotrophs.

With regard to the Romaine, it could well be a coincidence but I also found that these problems only started when I started giving my pig Romaine. If I were you I'd definitely pay close attention to your piggy's veg diet and try to see if you can find a link between what he eats and how he acts/feels, with regard to pain. Hopefully you can find some correlation and help Sam feel better, fingers crossed :)
 
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
617
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Edinburgh
Have been in all day today doing coursework. My desk is the "guinea pig room" :)) Sam has made none of is moaning noise at all today! And he hasnt had lettace for a few days because I ran out! So maybe that was it? The vet will probably think I am mad if I say I think it is to do with lettace!

Thw vet checked Sam's urine under microscope too and said there was no sign of crystals (the calcium phosphorus or what ever they are).

Will keep and ear out for him tonight but he had deffo not made any sounds today! :)
 

Pebble

Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
3,030
Reaction score
1,489
Points
880
Location
Sussex
Well the good news is that urine is fine for all 3 piggies tested, no blood, no sign of crystals and no white blood cells. Protein content was high on the dip stick test......but apparently this is not abnormal for guinea pigs.
One word of warning - the original dip stick tests registered high white blood cells (leucocytes) inidcative of a porblem going on...but none were found in any of the samples -which confirms what I have already been told by other vets that the leucocyte result on dip sticks is erroneous and doesn;t work properly with guinea pig urine.

Beechie's X rays also showed all areas (inc kidneys) free from stones.


However now for the bad news:
A mass was found that is either attached to the spleen or upper gut - vet isn;t sure from the X rays and exploratory surgery is recommended as the next step. The mass is a lot higher up the abdomen/gi tract (just below the stomach) so we just don;t know if this is the actual cause of the pain/whimpering which seems to emanate from the lower GI tract by his hind leg area. His lower gut (ie below the caecum) was quite gassy which in itself could be the cause of the pain although what is causing the gas (could be the mass but we could be back to the diet again) isn't clear at this time.

I only managed a snatched conversation with the vet yesterday on my mobile so didn;t get a chance to ask all the questions about glucosamine etc and haven;t seen the X rays myself yet. So I will be booking in for a proper consultation next monday/tuesday when the results of the blood tests and the eye tumour biopsy are back and I can decide on next steps.

So we now have more questions than answers and it doesn;t help either of you with your pigs.......except to say that I think the most cost-effective thing for Missy to do would be to ask for X rays to look for/rule out
a)stones in the kidney/urinary tract,
b) the amount of air in the caecum/colon and
c) possible masses/abnormailites associated with the Gi tract from the stomach downwards


Twopiggies - some piggies do make noises when they poo - although if as you say he has only started doing this recently it would suggest something is up. If you don;t think it's the urinary tract (easily ruled out by a urine analysis - edit see you have done that) I would try a rigorous diet exclusion and keep checking poo appearance and for possible impaction - So nothing but hay for a week to clear the system and then feed one veggie for a few days; stop for a few days to "clear the system" again and go back to hay; then try another veggie etc

I too have found lettuce can upset Beechie especially if it is either not absolutely fresh or I give it too frequently as part of the veggie mix....I have also cut his total veggie consumption down by half, and let him bulk up on timothy hay....and give him fibreplex which keeps poos solid and has a probioitic. So far his coat is still very silky but I am keeping an eye on it and if it loses condition I will start to syringe feed him Vit C.

Lastly Beechie in the mean time is still being given metacam and zantac (4mg/kg) once daily - in the evenings immediately after his veggies....you might both like to discuss this treatment with your vets and try it for a week to see whether this helps. It might not get rid of the cause - but it might help alleviate the symptoms.

I'm bowing out now as i don;t think posting further details on this thread about Beechie's condition will be helpful unless we manage to prove the mass found is relevant to the symptoms your piggies are experiencing. However if you have any questions then please Pm me.

Hope your respective piggies are back to normal soon

x
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
617
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Edinburgh
Thanks Pebble.

Sam was at the vet this morning. I said I have identified that the noise is when he poops but that this has decreased since I cut out lettuce.

To add to my worries my other piggie Dillon last night wasn't his usual self when I took them their supper and when he was trying to eat he struggled, had to spit things out and was very slow at eating! So another trip to the vets tomorrow!
 

Pebble

Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
3,030
Reaction score
1,489
Points
880
Location
Sussex
Thanks Pebble.

Sam was at the vet this morning. I said I have identified that the noise is when he poops but that this has decreased since I cut out lettuce.

To add to my worries my other piggie Dillon last night wasn't his usual self when I took them their supper and when he was trying to eat he struggled, had to spit things out and was very slow at eating! So another trip to the vets tomorrow!

Dillon sounds lke teeth issues
...check to see if there is a rodentologist in your area
x
 

missy

Adult Guinea Pig
Joined
Feb 2, 2010
Messages
1,855
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Location
Buckinghamshire, UK
I haven't been on for a few days so I'm just catching up now.....

TwoPiggies - Glad to hear that Sam seems much better now but sorry to hear that Dillon now has problems. Hopefully you can find someone experienced with piggy dental work and get him back to normal very soon x

Pebble - Glad to hear that Beechie is stone free but sorry to hear that the xrays showed up something else. Hopefully this new development will help provide some answers though. Sounds like poor little Beechie has a lot going on at the moment so fingers crossed for you both.

Thanks for the tip re leucocytes readings - I test my pigs' urine at home so that's good to know. Thanks also for all the other helpful suggestions. Although Beechie's condition may not necessarily be identical to Yossi's (or Sam's), you've still helped a lot x
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top