Short version: Vet hospital did not give my guinea pigs with peace lily poisoning activated charcoal until 4 hours after our consultation. Is it true that I can't give them enough fluids without IV? Also, how is this treated? They might be better off under my care at home with help of local vets.
One or both of my guinea pigs ate 10 leaves of peace lily. One may have eaten them in the morning, but I strongly suspect the second (knowing their personalities) might have eaten them between noon - 3pm. I discovered this after 3pm, gave both activated charcoal (tablets not quite dissolved in water), bought some filtered pure water (very quickly), called the vet and rushed off to them.
The big vet hospital/emergency centre wanted to keep them for a few days then test their kidney function, and is using intravenous fluids to flush their kidneys. I asked for both guinea pigs to be given more activated charcoal but they said what I had given them was enough. I was asked if it was 5mls and it didn't quite click at the time that they assumed I had a standard liquid solution. I called them on my way home to point out the wrong assumption that I had given them enough activated charcoal (the tablets barely dissolved), and that I was quite sure I hadn't given enough. I called again two hours later but was called nervous/anxious and the vet insisted what I had given them was enough but reluctantly agreed to give them some for my peace of mind (they hadn't administered the activated charcoal despite my earlier call). I called again minutes later (4 hours after the initial consultation) after I weighed the tablets and to tell them the pigs had eaten more peace lily (10 instead of 7) than I originally thought, they couldn't tell me if the charcoal had been given. When I was called back and got confirmation that activated charcoal was given, I was told multiple times that my pets weren't the only pet at the vet centre etc., that too much activated charcoal would cause complications, she knew how I feel, and she was sorry I felt that way and blamed everything on the head vet. Why was it so hard to have them give activated charcoal when there is no harm in giving them too much but chronic renal failure and death when given not enough? The vet tried to convince me it would cause problems as they are hind-gut fermenters etc, but how much and over how long a period versus a once-off extra dose of 1-4g/kg when faced with deadly poisoning?
The head vet had reassured me hospital care was necessary, that they would check on them every hour, that I couldn't give by hand the amount of water they could give by IV. I was apprehensive about leaving them there after seeing they would be housed with birds (which they are afraid of), that alfalfa hay was given, and they did not want to give them my timothy/grass hay at first, that they insisted it was okay give them Oxbow pellets despite it being what I would have withdrawn from their diet because this is a situation which I would only give grass hay for, but the vet said the calcium would help draw/bind the oxalate or something.
The recommended dose for activated charcoal in case of poisoning according to the vet is 1-4g/kg. One tablet is 0.7g and the tablets were barely dissolved, but the vet had said she was sure it was enough when she didn't know how much I had given them... They didn't have their first proper dose by the vet hospital of 1-2g until 4 hours after I brought them in. They disregarded my concern when 1 peace lily was enough to cause renal failure in a guinea pig. Renal failure in a guinea pig (Cavia porcellus) following ingestion of oxalate containing plants
I am tempted to take them out of hospital, to another which would be not very-cavy savvy, or bring them home (where I give them fluids and take them to the vet for iv fluid injections), and would like some opinions or advice.
Particularly, is it true that I can't give them as much water as they can by IV?
Also, the vet mentioned a hepato-renal route of flushing out the calcium oxalate crystals. Perhaps it would have been better given my early discovery to bind them with activated charcoal in the stomach to prevent them going through the kidney altogether? If some vet/vet techs can let me know how this is treated by other vets that would be great! I don't understand if the goal is to increase urination of calcium oxalate or decrease it, and "enteric hyperoxaluria" seems a bad thing? See here: Role of cecal pH in intestinal oxalate absorption in the rat. - PubMed - NCBI Is flushing a good idea? Altering the pH such as the article suggested with lactulose? Or is it the opposite?
Peace lily as I understand, contains calcium oxalate crystals, and they clog up the kidney. I also read the opposite - that it causes hypocalcemia because the oxalates bind to calcium which means they are not in crystal form. Would crystals just pass through the digestive system and not the urinary (as a naturopath I bought potassium citrate from said they would)? Would potassium citrate help since it interferes with the formation of calcium oxalate?
As for why they/he ate peace lily, I am looking after two girl pigs temporarily. My boys stay in one room in the back of house (they have a cage and unsupervised floor time as it is safe) while I started growing some vegetables and plants in the front since about a month ago which is where the girls are staying. They found their way to the girls' elevated cage, when they normally don't even go into the living room in between. I stuck the peace lily outside, came home the night before and moved it in the door without thinking and that was all it took.
That's all I can think of for now. Hope it was clear enough, and please may I hear your opinions/advice, whatever you can think of. Many thanks.
I hope it is okay with the rules that I have also posted this to another website/forum.
One or both of my guinea pigs ate 10 leaves of peace lily. One may have eaten them in the morning, but I strongly suspect the second (knowing their personalities) might have eaten them between noon - 3pm. I discovered this after 3pm, gave both activated charcoal (tablets not quite dissolved in water), bought some filtered pure water (very quickly), called the vet and rushed off to them.
The big vet hospital/emergency centre wanted to keep them for a few days then test their kidney function, and is using intravenous fluids to flush their kidneys. I asked for both guinea pigs to be given more activated charcoal but they said what I had given them was enough. I was asked if it was 5mls and it didn't quite click at the time that they assumed I had a standard liquid solution. I called them on my way home to point out the wrong assumption that I had given them enough activated charcoal (the tablets barely dissolved), and that I was quite sure I hadn't given enough. I called again two hours later but was called nervous/anxious and the vet insisted what I had given them was enough but reluctantly agreed to give them some for my peace of mind (they hadn't administered the activated charcoal despite my earlier call). I called again minutes later (4 hours after the initial consultation) after I weighed the tablets and to tell them the pigs had eaten more peace lily (10 instead of 7) than I originally thought, they couldn't tell me if the charcoal had been given. When I was called back and got confirmation that activated charcoal was given, I was told multiple times that my pets weren't the only pet at the vet centre etc., that too much activated charcoal would cause complications, she knew how I feel, and she was sorry I felt that way and blamed everything on the head vet. Why was it so hard to have them give activated charcoal when there is no harm in giving them too much but chronic renal failure and death when given not enough? The vet tried to convince me it would cause problems as they are hind-gut fermenters etc, but how much and over how long a period versus a once-off extra dose of 1-4g/kg when faced with deadly poisoning?
The head vet had reassured me hospital care was necessary, that they would check on them every hour, that I couldn't give by hand the amount of water they could give by IV. I was apprehensive about leaving them there after seeing they would be housed with birds (which they are afraid of), that alfalfa hay was given, and they did not want to give them my timothy/grass hay at first, that they insisted it was okay give them Oxbow pellets despite it being what I would have withdrawn from their diet because this is a situation which I would only give grass hay for, but the vet said the calcium would help draw/bind the oxalate or something.
The recommended dose for activated charcoal in case of poisoning according to the vet is 1-4g/kg. One tablet is 0.7g and the tablets were barely dissolved, but the vet had said she was sure it was enough when she didn't know how much I had given them... They didn't have their first proper dose by the vet hospital of 1-2g until 4 hours after I brought them in. They disregarded my concern when 1 peace lily was enough to cause renal failure in a guinea pig. Renal failure in a guinea pig (Cavia porcellus) following ingestion of oxalate containing plants
I am tempted to take them out of hospital, to another which would be not very-cavy savvy, or bring them home (where I give them fluids and take them to the vet for iv fluid injections), and would like some opinions or advice.
Particularly, is it true that I can't give them as much water as they can by IV?
Also, the vet mentioned a hepato-renal route of flushing out the calcium oxalate crystals. Perhaps it would have been better given my early discovery to bind them with activated charcoal in the stomach to prevent them going through the kidney altogether? If some vet/vet techs can let me know how this is treated by other vets that would be great! I don't understand if the goal is to increase urination of calcium oxalate or decrease it, and "enteric hyperoxaluria" seems a bad thing? See here: Role of cecal pH in intestinal oxalate absorption in the rat. - PubMed - NCBI Is flushing a good idea? Altering the pH such as the article suggested with lactulose? Or is it the opposite?
Peace lily as I understand, contains calcium oxalate crystals, and they clog up the kidney. I also read the opposite - that it causes hypocalcemia because the oxalates bind to calcium which means they are not in crystal form. Would crystals just pass through the digestive system and not the urinary (as a naturopath I bought potassium citrate from said they would)? Would potassium citrate help since it interferes with the formation of calcium oxalate?
As for why they/he ate peace lily, I am looking after two girl pigs temporarily. My boys stay in one room in the back of house (they have a cage and unsupervised floor time as it is safe) while I started growing some vegetables and plants in the front since about a month ago which is where the girls are staying. They found their way to the girls' elevated cage, when they normally don't even go into the living room in between. I stuck the peace lily outside, came home the night before and moved it in the door without thinking and that was all it took.
That's all I can think of for now. Hope it was clear enough, and please may I hear your opinions/advice, whatever you can think of. Many thanks.
I hope it is okay with the rules that I have also posted this to another website/forum.
I can see by your IP your are in Hong Kong so cavy savy vets may be difficult to find
