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Propolis drops question

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Lisajazz

Lisajazz

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Hiya

Okay I have a question for you - it's not guinea based though. My sister has a rabbit who has a serious absess on her face. Every three months the vets operate on her to cut it out. I believe they have also removed a small part of her jaw.

The absess isnt clearing up and she's worried as it's back and bigger than ever.

The rabbit also has baytril 10 days on 10 days off constantly.

I said someone on here had mentioned about manuka honey and she's asked me for more information. I don't know what to say as I don't know much about it. By the sounds of things the absess is closed after the op each time - maybe because it's so deep?

I also got to thinking about Propolis. I use propolis when I'm poorly as it's a natural antibiotic and it works wonders. I take tablets but you can get it in a liquid form. I wondered if anyone knows about the effects of this orally on guineas / other animals?

For anyone who doesn't know much about propolis bees are very prone to infection and they patch up holes in their hive with this stuff to prevent / fight infection. It's marvellous stuff for humans too and it also helps clear up spots which is another good thing.

Anyway any thoughts on my sisters rabbit, manuka honey and propolis greatly received. I know she's very worried about her at the moment.

Thanks!
 
No idea I'm afraid, but I'm very interested to hear the replies!

Does your sister post on the Rabbits United forum at all? Well worth asking there if she's not already.
 
I haven't used propolis, but have used colloidal silver and Citricidal (grapefruit seed extract) for small animals.
 
Laura she's joined today to see if she can get some advice. Her vet is cutting the absess away and then stitching her up so there is no drain which sounds very odd to me.

I have done a search on here and propolis drops are in three posts two of them say about having them in a first aid kit for piggies - I guess they are okay. They said to add to the water but I think it would be better if they were syringed in a water solution so you can see the animal taking it.
 
I admit that i don't know much about propolis, but cutting out an abcess every 3 months without knowing why its returning is ridiculous!

I'm guessing that it is probably a deep seated tooth root abcess that has travelled into the bone?

I would ask for a referal to a specialist if she is going to continue trying to sort out her bunny, it sounds like a vicious circle to me.

Ali
 
I had a rabbit a few years ago that developed a lower jaw abscess. The osteomyelitis caused bone destruction. Attempts to cure the problem were futile because the initial problem could not be determined.
I treated her symptoms but after a few months she died, presumably from overwhelming septicaemia. I carried out a post mortem examination of the jaw. The bone loss was very extensive, it affected the lingual side of the mandible distal to the incisors to the last molar. I was surprised that there had not been a pathological fracture of the jaw.
I suppose there is bound to be someone who wonders if the rabbit suffered pain whilst living with this condition. To the best of my knowledge and belief she was neither in pain nor discomfort, she continued to eat and behave normally .
I will not add any more, I wonder if anyone will ask a particular question, if not I will ask it myself!
 
I don't know but it is in her face / jaw.

I know she's shelled out hundreds and hundreds on her bunny trying to make her well and it's not working.

I hope she can find someone who is an expert in rabbits and actually help as all the antibiotics and operations can't be good. Poor thing she stayed here for a night last week and she's the cutest sweetest thing. Really lovely.

Thanks for your help and if anyone else knows something about propolis please say!
 
alcesterpigs said:
I had a rabbit a few years ago that developed a lower jaw abscess. The osteomyelitis caused bone destruction. Attempts to cure the problem were futile because the initial problem could not be determined.
I treated her symptoms but after a few months she died, presumably from overwhelming septicaemia. I carried out a post mortem examination of the jaw. The bone loss was very extensive, it affected the lingual side of the mandible distal to the incisors to the last molar. I was surprised that there had not been a pathological fracture of the jaw.
I suppose there is bound to be someone who wonders if the rabbit suffered pain whilst living with this condition. To the best of my knowledge and belief she was neither in pain nor discomfort, she continued to eat and behave normally .
I will not add any more, I wonder if anyone will ask a particular question, if not I will ask it myself!
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I don't know what you mean. I don't understand the technical stuff.

Is there any hope for Bella? It sounds very much like what you're describing and my sister would love to know if there is anything else she can do.

Laymans terms please
 
I haven't used propolis on a rabbit, only on pigs. I can only say it didn't make the problem any worse, whether it helped or not I do not know. I would say that in a desperate condition anything is worth trying.

Put simply, albeit in a drastic form, it destroyed the side of the jaw next to her tongue.
Long-term outlook, in my opinion, is not very good, but don't give up. Whilst there is life there is some hope.
 
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I know nothing helpful sorry, but I'm hoping she can find a soloution sending supportive vibes her way.
 
I've recently lost a rabbit due to an abscess. It was her 4th. She had an eye removed before I got her due to one and had 3 while with me, she also had no front teeth. I have had , and know of others who have had good results with injecting a penicillin based antibiotic, there are quite a few to choose from. It MUST be injected only as given orally it can severely upset the tummy. When Jess had her abscesses we kept the wound open and cleaned it daily, I then packed it with manuka honey. It must be as high a UMF as you can find- I use 20, it is very expesive although it lasts a long time. I would also ask for pain relief, oral metacam can be given although you may also need something like zantac to avoid upsetting the stomach. The vet may be very reluctant to use the penicillin antibiotic because it is not licensed in rabbits but if they check it out on the internet there is lots of recent info on it being used with great success.
I know Jess died in the end, but she had another happy year, the first abcsess was under her tongue and had burst, the vets did not expect her to live. We had he pts as she was finding it too difficult to eat with the last abscess.
 
Right, its no use i am going to have to say it. I'm sure your friend is doing all she can for her bunny, but i'm going to put my head above the parapet and say, if it was mine, i would have bunny pts.

There i've said it now, apologies if it upsets anyone, but i can't see any way that this poor bun can be healthy again.

Coming from a rescue point of view, i would have to balance the costs involved with treating one animal against be able to help a large number.

I am not saying for one minute that i would not be happy to treat serious illness/injury, but only if the animals quality of life afterwards is good.

As i say, this is only my opinion, but i stand by it.

Best of luck with bunny

Ali
 
I forgot to mention that Jess was on the penicillin treatment for 7 weeks the first abscess, 3 weeks the next, and it is given sub cutaneously.
 
amentalcat said:
Right, its no use i am going to have to say it. I'm sure your friend is doing all she can for her bunny, but i'm going to put my head above the parapet and say, if it was mine, i would have bunny pts.

There i've said it now, apologies if it upsets anyone, but i can't see any way that this poor bun can be healthy again.

Coming from a rescue point of view, i would have to balance the costs involved with treating one animal against be able to help a large number.

I am not saying for one minute that i would not be happy to treat serious illness/injury, but only if the animals quality of life afterwards is good.

As i say, this is only my opinion, but i stand by it.

Best of luck with bunny

Ali
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You are possibly right in this case if the bun has had part of her jaw removed, but treatment of abscesses can increase lifespan and give a good quality of life- our Jess got another happy and pain free year with her friends.
 
amentalcat said:
Right, its no use i am going to have to say it. I'm sure your friend is doing all she can for her bunny, but i'm going to put my head above the parapet and say, if it was mine, i would have bunny pts.

There i've said it now, apologies if it upsets anyone, but i can't see any way that this poor bun can be healthy again.

Coming from a rescue point of view, i would have to balance the costs involved with treating one animal against be able to help a large number.

I am not saying for one minute that i would not be happy to treat serious illness/injury, but only if the animals quality of life afterwards is good.

As i say, this is only my opinion, but i stand by it.

Best of luck with bunny

Ali
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. My sister more than anyone wants the best for her baby girl bunny and feels she is doing her best.

She's only had a small part of her jaw removed and she seems to still have a good quality of life. She's become a house bunny and seems happy. She certainly acts normally, she doesn't just sit there but interacts, eats, toilets, hops about and investigates her surroundings.

She eats food normally and apart from having to have things like carrots cut into batons she manages her veg too. I fed her greens and strawberries and carrot batons here when she stayed and she managed all of it. Hay too, aswell as her regular feed.

I personally think with her limited resources (she's a student) she is doing good by her bun. I know it isn't all about the money but she's managing that too.

I think the reason she's asked me to find out a bit more is she sees that one day in the near(ish) future she may not have such a happy bun and the treatment may not be as effective in keeping it managed as it is right now and when the day comes to put her bunny to sleep she wants to know she's done right by her and tried her best. I personally salute her for trying so hard.

She is certainly not the kind of person to allow an animal to suffer neednessly and when the day comes that it's all about suffering she will display as much strength then as she is now.
 
I think that if it was just a re-occuring abcess then it would be worth trying anything 'cos i might clear up, but as the poster says that the bunny has had a piece of jawbone removed, i don't think there will be an acceptable outcome after more treatment.

In my opinion, a bunny shouldn't live its life having 10 days of ABs every 20 days continuously, sure a couple of times is ok, but it sounds like more than a couple to me.

At the end of the day, of course its the owners decision, but i am very surprised that the vet would just continue and continue when its obviously not working.

I'm glad you got to have an extra year with Jess, she sound very sweet.

Ali
 
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Jess during treatment for the first abscess while with us. As you can see she is a happy healthy bun.
DSC00164.jpg


I don't really see a problem with medicating an animal routinely- i have cats on tablets twice daily, sure, some run when they know its tablet time, but are fine the rest of the time. Many rabbits don't like being picked up but it is a necessary evil, which has to be done for daily checks, getting a needle isn't much different.

I would also suggest your sister should consider x-rays to find out the state of the bone in her jaw, but as long as the rabbit is happy and eating, keep trying, I know of one rabbit who has had 2 abscesses in his ear and has been clear for 2 years after injections.:))
 
I am sure a person who is diabetic is willing to take insulin for life!
 
If taking a tablet every day cured the problem then thats great, but i think there is something else going on that anti-biotics probably won't cure on their own, AND prolonged use of any medicine might bring its own issues.

I'm sure the bunnies owner is doing all she can, she is happy with her decision which is great, its only my opinion anyway;).

I wish her all the luck in the world.

Ali
 
amentalcat said:
If taking a tablet every day cured the problem then thats great, but i think there is something else going on that anti-biotics probably won't cure on their own, AND prolonged use of any medicine might bring its own issues.

I'm sure the bunnies owner is doing all she can, she is happy with her decision which is great, its only my opinion anyway;).

I wish her all the luck in the world.

Ali
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That is true, but only one antibiotic has been tried in this case and many organisms are not affected by baytril. I had a swab taken of Jess's abscess and it was E.coli, which was sensitive to penicillin, however her problem was the position of the abscess and the fact she had no front teeth, this made eating difficult for her and in the end for her sake we had to have her PTS.
 
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