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Recurrent URI - Could He Have A Heart Condition?

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*Nibbles&Nugget*

*Nibbles&Nugget*

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I'm back about Nutty again and I have a question, but first here's a bit of history:

  1. His first URI was nearly a year ago. He went downhill so quickly. We literally woke up to a seriously ill guinea pig. Crusty eyes, awful breathing, hooting noises, gave up eating, drinking, not pooping, barely able to move. I was syringe feeding round the clock for two weeks and he was on a course of baytril. Three weeks later he was his normal self again, a little skinnier than before but the vet gave him the all clear.
  2. About two months later he fell ill again. This time just crusty eyes and hooting breathing. Baytril had no effect after a week so we tried septrin. A two week course of that and he was completely normal again.
  3. The third time he fell ill (hooting and crusty eyes), the vet said just to call and ask for septrin if it happened again after this and prescribed septrin. I knew the drill. We had a long three week course and he got the all clear again.
  4. Just over a month ago he showed signs again and I called and got a course of septrin, a three week course. At the end of it, he was normal again.
  5. Then this morning I wake up to snuffly breathing and crusty eyes. Fearing the worst I watched him like a hawk and sure enough, by lunch time he was hooting again.


He is still eating and drinking normally and happy in himself but it breaks my heart. I've called the vet and insisted I get an appointment to discuss this because it can't be right. Our appointment is for early tomorrow morning as I want to see the vet who is best with piggies.

Is it possible that Nutty has a heart condition? If so, how can I get this diagnosed and what treatments are there? If not does anyone have any idea why it might be coming back. The thing that confuses me most about it is I have heard URI are highly contagious and yet none of my other piggies have ever caught one, not even his cage mate. (this may be down to my OCD cleaning the cages for fear of infections, lol) But it does make me think something else might be going on. Any ideas?

I'd really appreciate someone who maybe has experience of this or can shed some light on what the cause might be.

  • A few other things, one of my other piggies is bad with dusty bedding so they are just on dust free hay and newspaper.
  • He is nearly four years old.
  • I kept a food diary to see if there was any correlation in what he was eating when it came back. Nothing there.
  • His weight changes between 1000g-1050g but just before he got ill it dipped down to 980-ish g with no apparent loss of appetite and still taking all his favourite veggies and even ones that weren't his favourites.

He is bright eyed and bushy tailed, currently popcorning round his cage like a crazy thing demanding the evening hay rations!

Anyway, before I start to waffle on I'll just say, please ask if you have any questions about what I have said or extra things you might want to know.

Thanks in advance

Amy
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Sorry I have no advice but I just wanted to say how sorry I am that you and Nutty are going through this. I hope the vet can get to the bottom of this and help your little man. I am always here if you need to talk.
 
A vet is probably the best way to be sure but it sounds like your little man is a pig that just seems to attract UTIs. I can't see anything from what you've said that would imply a heart problem. If animals (and people) have breathing difficulties related to heart failure it doesn't tend to come along with a snotty nose or runny eyes and the antibiotics would not have resolved it.

Sounds to me like he is just prone to infections in this area (as some people are) and a vet check and some antibiotics would be the best option. Please remember just because one drug worked last time it may not this time as different bugs respond to different meds so if the first one your vet suggests doesn't help, go back and try again as another antibiotic may be better.

Good luck with your little man!
 
Thanks. Yes, I hope it's nothing heart related. I just read that recurrent URI's could be a sign of a heart condition so I think I'll get the vet to check everything to be on the safe side

Amy
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I haven't got much experience really so firstly let me say best of luck getting to the bottom of Nutty's problems. Like Merrypip had said it doesn't obviously seem hrart related.

Esme has been recently diagnosed with pneumonia/ heart problems with one causing the other.
They xrayed her and found an enlarged heart and decreased lung capacity- and potential fluid in the lungs .
She is now having septrin for another 4 days and furosemide twice a day indefinitely at the moment, and it definitely seems to be working- she was doing this breathing where her sidexs were sucked in and she hasn't done it for days now.
 
klee said:
I haven't got much experience really so firstly let me say best of luck getting to the bottom of Nutty's problems. Like Merrypip had said it doesn't obviously seem hrart related.

Esme has been recently diagnosed with pneumonia/ heart problems with one causing the other.
They xrayed her and found an enlarged heart and decreased lung capacity- and potential fluid in the lungs .
She is now having septrin for another 4 days and furosemide twice a day indefinitely at the moment, and it definitely seems to be working- she was doing this breathing where her sidexs were sucked in and she hasn't done it for days now.
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With the breathing you describe does she seem to move back and forth with it? Nutty has been doing that (his sides are moving oddly) just now while having a cuddle and it's not something I've seen before. He was squeaking happily the whole time and nearly took my fingers off for a spinach leaf but it is a new development

Amy
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*Nibbles&Nugget* said:
With the breathing you describe does she seem to move back and forth with it? Nutty has been doing that (his sides are moving oddly) just now while having a cuddle and it's not something I've seen before. He was squeaking happily the whole time and nearly took my fingers off for a spinach leaf but it is a new development

Amy
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A bit yeah she did. You could very clearly see her hip bones and her sides seemed to move and look very odd.
Don't worry yourself too much, it may be the fact he has another infectio that he may be having some breathing issues. Sounds good that he is still eating- Esme went completely off her food and it took a few days to get her guts working properly again.
 
I'm sorry he keeps getting so poorly, recurrent URIs can be a symptom of a heart condition the best thing to do is ask the vet to carry out an xray or Ultrasound, this is the best form of diagnosis. Some vets are also willing to prescribe a trial of heart meds, basically if the pig improves on the meds you have your answer. Does he have any fluid on his chest? or abdomen? if so ask the vet about diuretics. Other symptoms of a heart issue can be:

Laboured Diaphragmatic breathing
Rapid breathing
Body rocking in time with breathing (nodding)
Hooting
Random coughing
Failure to gain weight
Pancaking (lying flat out not wanting to move) and lethargy
Cyanosed skin to mouth, nose, tongue, ears and feet
Bumblefoot
Ascites
Abdominal bloating due to sucking in air

Please note that the above is taken from an article written by Karen Malt who runs the guinea pig clinics at Vets and Pets in Broxbourne. The full article can be accessed on www.tkcc.org.uk you need to join as a free member to access it.

I have numerous pigs on heart meds so feel free to ask any questions.
 
helen105281 said:
I'm sorry he keeps getting so poorly, recurrent URIs can be a symptom of a heart condition the best thing to do is ask the vet to carry out an xray or Ultrasound, this is the best form of diagnosis. Some vets are also willing to prescribe a trial of heart meds, basically if the pig improves on the meds you have your answer. Does he have any fluid on his chest? or abdomen? if so ask the vet about diuretics. Other symptoms of a heart issue can be:

Laboured Diaphragmatic breathing
Rapid breathing
Body rocking in time with breathing (nodding)
Hooting
Random coughing
Failure to gain weight
Pancaking (lying flat out not wanting to move) and lethargy
Cyanosed skin to mouth, nose, tongue, ears and feet
Bumblefoot
Ascites
Abdominal bloating due to sucking in air

Please note that the above is taken from an article written by Karen Malt who runs the guinea pig clinics at Vets and Pets in Broxbourne. The full article can be accessed on www.tkcc.org.uk you need to join as a free member to access it.

I have numerous pigs on heart meds so feel free to ask any questions.
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Thanks, that's really useful. He has the first seven on that list. His mouth, nose, ears and feet are all dark so it is difficult to tell and as he is slender anyway I think any bloating would be obvious but he seems fine. The nodding breathing and hooting are particularly distressing.

My research did suggest x-ray or ultrasound would be needed. Which do you think is best for a diagnosis if it comes down to it?

Amy
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You're welcome. I would go for Ultrasound preferably. I know of a pig where the xray showed possible right sided heart failure but it was inconclusive and then the ultrasound confirmed it.
 
Just got back from the vet. The one I wanted to see wasn't there so I had to see someone else and I am so frustrated. I explained my concerns and the research I'd done and the vet practically laughed. Saying that seemed very unlikely and had I considered allergies. Yes, I had, and if he had read the notes he would have seen we tried that before. But when I asked why Nutty kept getting them back then, he had so answer for that. I have insisted on an x-ray (I did ask for an ultrasound but the vet said it was unnecessary) to at the very least rule out my worries. I'm pretty emotional anyway but I was crying when I came in. I just want my baby better. I know something is wrong.

Regarding the x-ray they said they would probably have to put him under to do it! I said no way, he is a perfect angel and will sit still if he needs to. Is it normal for a guinea pig to need to be sedated? Any tips for what I can do to make sure he is ok during it?

The x-ray is booked for first thing Monday morning, literally when they open because it is my Grandad's funeral later. Roughly how long do x-rays take?

Thanks in advance. I'm just exhausted with all this.

Amy
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How frustrating! What a rude vet to be so scornful. No wonder you are now feeling worse. I would wait until another vet is there and seek their opinion.

I am so sorry you lost your Grandfather. You are really going through a hard time. I am always here for you. Xx
 
piggyfan said:
How frustrating! What a rude vet to be so scornful. No wonder you are now feeling worse. I would wait until another vet is there and seek their opinion.

I am so sorry you lost your Grandfather. You are really going through a hard time. I am always here for you. Xx
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Thank you. Yeah, things are pretty difficult right now. I would wait for another vet but I feel that it's best to get the x-ray done quickly, and then even if I'm wrong about this, at least I'll know for sure. I would love to be wrong right now. But I am going to request another vet as I just did not get along with this one.

Amy
 
I can see why they would consider putting him under anaesthetic for this sort of process, even if he does sit still, the slightest movement could cause a blur on the xray that could then lead to an unsure diagnosis, although guinea pig anaesthetic is risky i’ve never personally experienced any problems with it, xrays are such a short procedure as well, it depends on the process used, but where i work we can have an xray over in 15 minutes. The xRay its self is just like a humans a quick click and your done, you just have the added time of setting up and monitoring anaesthetic.

Theres nothing you can really do other than leave it to the vet team to care for your pet they’ll give you all the advice when they discharge him to you after the procedure, your pig will be monitored throughout and also during a recovery, we never leave an animal on it’s own and I'm sure your vets is the same.

Good luck.
 
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Thanks for explaining. That does set my mind at ease. I want what's best for him. It would have been nice if the vet had taken the time to explain this to me! Does anyone know how long recovery is after something like an x-ray? Does he need monitoring all day? If so I'm out for two hours ish but can ask a friend to come and piggysit.

He does move a lot when he is breathing at the moment (a sort of nodding) will this effect the x ray and will he be ok sedated with his breathing like that?

Amy
x
 
Recovery really varies between animals, as every one is different, some spring back really quickly and others stay sleepy for hours, your guinea pig won’t be allowed home until the vet is completely happy that they are recovered from the anaesthetic.

This sometimes means that when they get home they are still a little sleepy or not quite them selves but i would still keep an eye on them for the next 24 hours or so as he may need syringe feeding as it often takes a while for them to get their appetite back, others will only eat at home which may mean he will be delayed in coming home, i know we don’t send any pigs home without them eating unless it’s got to an unreasonable time and we tell the owners what to look out for and ask them to call back the second they feel worried or concerned.

The main monitoring will be during his anaesthetic, then he’ll be monitored until he wakes up, once he’s woken up, he will probably be checked on every 10-15 minutes, or more, as where i work there is a small furry ward i just check in every 10 minutes, where as in other vets the small furry’s go in with the cats or mixed ward where there is often alot more people in and out, he’ll still recieve the same sort of monitoring as there will always be a ward nurse keeping an eye on the animals and noting anything down for example, wether they’ve wee’d, poo’d, eaten, breathing all that sort of stuff anything that could show a sign of further illness or a reaction to the anaesthetic.

Different vets all have different times that they start letting animals home, where i work we don’t usually start sending animals home till about 3ish but it depends what time he has his xrays etc. as to how long he then needs to stay in to recover before going home, they’ll tell you when you take him in the morning a rough idea of when to pick him up.

His breathing will be much easier under anaesthetic so i doubt he will move quite as much.
 
Esme was xrayed without GA. At my vets they have an open ended box ( I'm not quite sure how they do it) that they place them in to xray them. They don't realise that they can get out so stay still.
I think it all depnds on the vets and their experience with pigs. Sorry you didn't have a great experience today x
 
klee said:
Esme was xrayed without GA. At my vets they have an open ended box ( I'm not quite sure how they do it) that they place them in to xray them. They don't realise that they can get out so stay still.
I think it all depnds on the vets and their experience with pigs. Sorry you didn't have a great experience today x
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Our Exotics don't do X-rays under GA, if a piggy is stressed though, they give a tiny whiff of gas just to calm them :)
Twiams - thank you for your wonderful explanations, this really has helped ease a few worried minds I think :)
 
Guinea pig slave said:
Twiams - thank you for your wonderful explanations, this really has helped ease a few worried minds I think :)
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Your welcome :) It’s always something thats helped put my mind at rest as i actually see what happens behind the scenes as such and know what they look for etc. I always try to explain to clients where i work the full extent of what needs to happen and what their animal will experience while it’s in the vets, i think some vets just assume everyone knows what everything is and what happens because the procedure is just so day to day for them, they forget not everyone knows what they are waffling about rolleyes
 
That is really helpful Twiams thank you. However, as he has a suspected heart issue (whether it turns out to be or not) and while he has a respiratory infection I do not think a GA is a good idea, heart pigs should never have a GA unless it is absolutely necessary. Not sure how you are transport wise but Vets and Pets in Broxbourne do conscious xrays and ultrasound too and Amir the vet is knowledgeable about heart issues. He is also willing to prescribe Zithromax for stubborn URIs. Alternatively, are you anywhere near Maidstone? I have it on good authority that Mark Rowland at Trinity Vet Centre is able to do conscious xrays and is very knowledgeable. Am sending you a PM too.
 
helen105281 said:
That is really helpful Twiams thank you. However, as he has a suspected heart issue (whether it turns out to be or not) and while he has a respiratory infection I do not think a GA is a good idea, heart pigs should never have a GA unless it is absolutely necessary. Not sure how you are transport wise but Vets and Pets in Broxbourne do conscious xrays and ultrasound too and Amir the vet is knowledgeable about heart issues. He is also willing to prescribe Zithromax for stubborn URIs. Alternatively, are you anywhere near Maidstone? I have it on good authority that Mark Rowland at Trinity Vet Centre is able to do conscious xrays and is very knowledgeable. Am sending you a PM too.
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His breathing does concern me as I know that GA does have its risks.

I do have an exotics specialist further afield I can get to if they don't take me seriously. I have asked for them to try the x-ray with GA first and we will see how we go. I think if I am having issues I will request they call and speak to a vet at another practice for a second opinion.

I've not heard of Zithromax before. What exactly is it? And what is it used for?

Amy
x
 
Do you mean "without" GA?

Zithromax is the best antibiotic for treating a URI and pneumonia, proper name is Azithromycin. May also be worth suggesting to your vet.
 
helen105281 said:
Do you mean "without" GA?

Zithromax is the best antibiotic for treating a URI and pneumonia, proper name is Azithromycin. May also be worth suggesting to your vet.
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Yep, I meant without. Gosh, so not with it. It's a bit late! Zithromax sounds like the answer to my prayers if its not heart related. Thank you, I will definitely be mentioning that to the vet.

Amy
x
 
As expected, Nutty was a perfect angel. I gave the vets a cardboard box with the top and bottom cut off, and as soon as that was round him, he would keep still. As far as they can tell, the heart looks fine and same for the lungs. So what he has is a very stubborn URI

I asked about zithromax but the vet wasn't willing to 'mess around with something like that' So he has been prescribed a combination of 0.2 of baytril and 0.2 of septrin.

Nutty seems worse today. I have 21 days of these antibiotics but if I'm not happy after a week I think I will either go back to ask them to try something else, or ask for the details of his x rays and treatment so far to go elsewhere. It feels like we will never get anywhere with him.

Amy
x
 
*Nibbles&Nugget* said:
As expected, Nutty was a perfect angel. I gave the vets a cardboard box with the top and bottom cut off, and as soon as that was round him, he would keep still. As far as they can tell, the heart looks fine and same for the lungs. So what he has is a very stubborn URI

I asked about zithromax but the vet wasn't willing to 'mess around with something like that' So he has been prescribed a combination of 0.2 of baytril and 0.2 of septrin.

Nutty seems worse today. I have 21 days of these antibiotics but if I'm not happy after a week I think I will either go back to ask them to try something else, or ask for the details of his x rays and treatment so far to go elsewhere. It feels like we will never get anywhere with him.

Amy
x
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I'm pleased Nutty got away without the need for a GA, but am sorry to hear he isn't so good today. Amy I'm not sure where abouts you are in Kent but can you get to Mark Rowland at Trinity in Maidstone (just by the hospital so on a bus route if needed), I suspect he is the exotic specialist you referred to earlier. I realise Nutty is on both Baytril and Septrin, which may make a difference, how many times a day is he being given it? The 0.2 dose of Septrin in particular sounds low (is it the paediatric suspension, smells of banana?) if it's once a day :/, even twice daily I would have expected a larger dose - please remember I am not a vet and am only going on my own personal experience of the drug. If you can get to Maidstone I would definitely go to Trinity, if Mark is away his colleague Richard is also very good with small furries. I do hope your little chap shows signs of improvement.
 
Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Both meds are those doses twice a day. I thought they sounded a little low but the other doses they put him on before sounded very high to me (2ml of septrin paeds twice a day)

Another piggy I had on septrin, prescribed by my specialist was 0.7 twice a day which I thought sounded about right.

The specialist nearest me are a great little place in Snodland, Sandhole vets. They are very good but still quite a distance for me. My Dad said he will take me there on Saturday if Nutty is worse or the same.

There seems to be a slight clicking noise to his hooting this morning. He was fine about his meds and took probiotic water eagerly. He is eating and drinking for himself and maintaining the same weight. However his nose is running a bit and he is still doing the nodding while breathing movement.

Amy
x
 
Amy if you can travel as far as Sandhole in Snodland, Mark is only a few minutes further away and is THE piggy vet in Kent (I'm pretty sure he used to work at Sandhole before setting up his own practice) so it's worth considering trying to get an appointment there. It would be worth making a note of all Nutty's symptoms and the order they appeared, the drugs he's been given and dosages - I'm hopeless when I get to the vets I forget everything! I hope you manage to sort something out for your little chap.
 
Sorry Amy only just catching up with this thread. Hope Nutty starts to show some sort of improvement soon, lots of healing vibes his way, please keep us updated on him x x
 
As I've already been to Sandhole, I feel comfortable going back there this time but I will certainly consider Mark in the future. Nutty seems very happy tucking into his veggies at the moment but his breathing still sounds pretty bad. I actually have a piggy diary book, where I record weights and symptoms when ill. I need to speak to my vet to get the x ray and details of all the meds and appointments etc, but I feel I have to at least give this treatment a try.

Amy
x
 
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