Urgent antibiotics advice needed!

[marsvin]

Hi!

I started a thread some weeks ago (Title: Urinary tract infection and back leg problem) about the UTI of our guinea pig. Now we have the latest result of his urine test and it shows that it contains Enterococcus. The problem is that it seems to be resistent to all guinea pig safe antibiotics (e.g. Bactrim or Baytril). We were prescribed Keflex, which contains cephalexin, but guinealynx has it on its "medications to be avoided" list, so we are not sure if we should use it or not. I would appreciate if anybody could give any advice. Here is the list of the sensitivity test:

SENSITIVE to:
penicillin
ampicillin
cephalotin
amoxicillin
fusidic acid
clyndamycin
erytromycin
gentamicin
tetracyclin

RESISTANT to:
oxacillin
nitrofurantoin
polymyxin B
trimetoprin
enrofloxacin

THANKS!

 

[teadragon]

I'm not sure that you're on the right forum to be given advice on antibiotics because many of the forum users have been prescribed Baytril which is a safe antibiotic.

The reason unsafe antibiotics are unsafe is because they have a tendency to be so strong that they completely un-stabilise the "good bacteria" in a guinea pigs gut which is necessary for digestion of the harsh plant materials a guinea pig eats. A guinea pigs gut is designed well and exclusively for its job as a herbivore, and the bacteria that reside in the gut are there for a reason. If the helpful bacteria are knocked off balance and unhelpful bacteria are allowed to grow in numbers it can be extremely difficult for that balance to be corrected again.

This happens with any antibiotic; if the guinea pig tolerates the antibiotic (Baytril or Bactrim, for example) well then they will be able to recover the good bacteria without much help. If they don't the antibiotic should be discontinued. Pro-biotics are recommended for guinea pigs to help recover the digestive tract after an antibiotic.

The problem with dangerous antibiotics is that the GI tract finds it extremely difficult to recover after that medication has been given - or the guinea pig dies due to a toxicity but since we're talking about antibiotics then it's likely we're talking about gut flora here. This is extremely dangerous for a guinea pig because a guinea pig that can't digest its food will go off its food, will become in pain and will then enter an emergency situation.

With dangerous antibiotics, I'm talking from a case where Penicillin was injected into the guinea pig, the guinea pig will seem to recover and then dangerously relapse into not feeling well and will require intensive care. These relapses happened frequently: pig would seem to get better. Owner would relax. Pig would rapidly decline again. This was from ONE injection of a bad antibiotic during a spay which the owner didn't consent to. I can't imagine what it would be like if (I'm assuming) a dangerous antibiotic was given orally where it had the chance to flood the pigs digestive system, especially during the time line required to clear up a UTI

The case I'm talking about can be read here: http://www.guinealynx.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=54751

I'm sorry that your vet has given you a dangerous antibiotic; many are on the list for a reason.

Please print out the Dangerous Medications list and show it to your vet.

 

[teadragon]

Let me note: in the above case the veterinary surgery insisted that the injection of a dangerous antibiotic was okay because the antibiotic wasn't flooding the gut so wouldn't affect the bacteria in the gut. While the owners account in the thread suggests otherwise, this would indicate that even a surgery that would give a guinea pig a dangerous medication by injection is very much aware how dangerous it is to give a guinea pig a dangerous medication orally.


Excuse the post bomb, trying to type things up before you give the med.

Could you try this antibiotic [http://www.guinealynx.info/antibiotics.html]
Doxycycline -- doxycycline hyclate, doxycycline monohydrate (Vibramycin, Vibravet)
Oral Dosage: 5mg/kg q12h Calculate Dose in mg

Doxycycline is an advanced analogue of the tetracycline family of antibiotics with broad-spectrum activity against gram+ve and gram-ve bacteria including penicillinase-producers and anaerobes as well as rickettsia, chlamydia and mycoplasma. Activity has been demonstrated against a wide range of bacterial organisms including Staphylococcus spp, Streptococcus spp, E. coli, Pasteurella spp, Haemophilus spp, Clostridia spp, Listeria spp, Bacteroides spp, Bordetella spp, Klebsiella spp and others.
The use of tetracyclines in newborn animals may lead to permanent yellow staining of teeth. Avoid using doxycycline in pregnant animals in the last 3 weeks of pregnancy and in newborn animals in the first month of life.

For more information on doxycycline (Vibramycin), see www.marvistavet.com.

Pinta has noted, "The Doxy dose that has worked the best for us is 5mg/kg twice a day. This is the same as the rat dose. We have found the usual dose of 2.5mg/kg just doesn't totally knock out a URI."



Enterococcus is gram +ve (thank you WIKIPEDIA!) and from what I've heard tetracycline's are pretty strong stuff. Has your vet looked into this one yet? It's a step up from Baytril and Bactrim.

 

[marsvin]

Thanks for your replies! Yes, we are just looking at doxycycline. Probably this will be the way to go, I will call the vet first thing in the morning.
This whole situation is very frustrating, as the vet does not seem to be very experienced, but we have no other choice. If we have not read the list of dangerous antibiotics we would have given our guinea pig this stuff just because of trusting the vet's opinion. This is very sad...
Thanks a lot again for your contribution!

 

[teadragon]

Marsvin - if your vet is willing to have an open mind, to read literature you provide and to hear you then you can have a very good relationship despite this mishap. It may be a good idea for you to read up on many of the different medical pages of guinea lynx so you can see red flags coming before your vet hits you with them. It's how we all learn. Everybody wants to trust their vet. Your guinea pig is extremely lucky to have you as an owner in this situation.

Good luck!

Oh, you said that your guinea pig has an UTI. What may may your pig more comfortable is if you lace plain cranberry juice into his or her water bottle or syringe feed some of it into them. You're not after the stuff by OceanSpray which has added sugar; just plain old cranberry juice. It will help to reduce the pain she's in when urinating and the extra water will help dilute her pee.

Also: you may want to look into getting some pain relief for her during this time, especially if the piggie starts to lose weight. Be careful with metacam, though, if she's not drinking much water.

 

[ellie_jo3213]

"Enterococcus is gram +ve (thank you WIKIPEDIA!)"

i would be VERY careful about what you read on wikipedia, half of it is made up bull****, that is unregulated.

 

[pelicano]

I was once prescribed Cephalexin, to be used with great caution (ie rather than given to all 3 pigs, give it to just one to start with), but that the vet had used it successfully with guinea pigs (it just wasn't one he'd use unless there were no other options). Anyway, I picked a pig (Cassie) and gave her one dose. It then took her 2 weeks to get over just that one dose and multiple probiotics. I never gave it to the other 2 pigs at all.

 

[Wiebke]

Could you try and contact the CCT (Cambridge Cavy Trust) for more qualified help? http://jackiesguineapiggies.com/cct.html

 

[teadragon]

"Enterococcus is gram +ve (thank you WIKIPEDIA!)"

i would be VERY careful about what you read on wikipedia, half of it is made up bull****, that is unregulated.

I'm very much aware of Wikipedia's reputation and I tend to cross-check what wikipedia says. I quote wikipedia because I find people often understand how wikipedia words their information easier than the medical results I pull up.

It IS gram positive.

 

[marsvin]

Thanks all of you for these very quick responses!
We give him cranberry juice, it is an unsweetened one. He also gets Metacam twice a day. His appetite seems to be fine, he is not loosing any weigth at the moment.
We are so worried if we will manage to cure him or not. I really hope the vet will prescribe Vibramycin tomorrow.

Pelicano: your story terrifies me! I hope we will manage to get rid of the bacteria with a safe medicine.

 

[alcesterpigs]

Post deleted.

 

[ellie_jo3213]

I'm very much aware of Wikipedia's reputation and I tend to cross-check what wikipedia says. I quote wikipedia because I find people often understand how wikipedia words their information easier than the medical results I pull up.

It IS gram positive.

I'm sorry if i offended you, its just that some may believe everything on wikipedia. I'm glad your not one of thoes and you check your facts

 

[teadragon]

Don't worry about it, you didn't offend me and it was a valid point to make, especially at a time when a lot of students (people?) tend to base their research on wikipedia. I didn't want you to think that I don't cross check what I type at people!

I'm a complete geek. ^_^

 

[gizzy]

Hi I have little knowledge of the best antibiotic to use in you pigs case , only that it is hard to control with pig friendly antibiotics ,

I had a sow that suffer chronic UTI for many many years , and apart from the paediatric septerin that the vet prescribed , which only had limited affect ,

the most useful tool for this sow was the use of a high vitamin c diet i.e. red peppers ect and a daily dose of Holland and Barrett natural vit c liquid ,

I read that the bacterias responsible for UTI do’s not thrive well in a bladder with an acid PH ,

and all I can tell you is when she was on the high vit c her episodes of UTI were every 4 months as opposed to every few weeks

I know people recommend cranberry juice , but this sow reacted badly to it , but then all pigs are different !

 

[marsvin]

Today I talked to the vet and and she was quite helpful and prescribed doxycycline (Vibranord, I think it is equivalent to Vibramycin). The dose she adviced is 2.5 mg/kg every 12 hours. However in guinealynx they suggest that 5 mg/kg works better. Has anybody got any experience with this antibiotics? Should we stick to the lower dose or is it better to use the higher one which guinealynx says?

Thanks a lot again to all of you!

 

[alcesterpigs]

Many years ago I had a sow with a head/neck abscess that did not respond to Baytril. I treated her with Vibramycin, the abscess resolved completely within a few days, then she started to go downhill and died about a week later.
I am fully aware that does not "prove" cause and effect. However, rightly or wrongly, I have not used Vibramycin again.

 

[marsvin]

I'm so sorry, this is terrible to hear. We also fear that something like this can happen, but because this infection seems to be very resistant I think we don't have any choice but to try to cure him with doxycycline and hope that it will work. But we are very very worried whether he will make it through.

 

[ajb]

I second the idea of talking to CCT. My pigs have only had baytril or septrim, but there was a third one that CCT would only give if they took the pig as an inpatient, because it caused diarrhea and therefore the pig had to be monitored for dehydration.