Vitamin C Complications?

[kirstypiggies]

A bit over 2 weeks ago we noticed some crust around Peanut's mouth. We thought she'd given herself paper cuts as we'd noticed someone chewed a book on the bookcase. We took her to the vet who said she had scurvy from lack of vitamin C.

Apparently we were feeding her all the right things (unlimited hay and Burgess pellets, a limited mix of vegetables such as carrot and red/orange peppers, and plenty of dark leafy greens). The vet gave us some special small hay tablets, to feed her one a day. (Oxbow vitamin C tablets), and to come back in one month for a checkup.

But as you can see from the picture, it's actually got worse. We had false confidence she was getting better, given everything the vet said, so we only realised she was getting worse today. We will take her to the vet first thing tomorrow (being 7pm Sunday right now).

The vet is supposedly a small animal specialist but now I'm angry and worried and need advice ASAP. Do I need a new vet? What should I do until tomorrow morning? I have two other piggies but stress could even make her worse so don't want to isolate her unless on the balance of probability it's the best thing to do.

PS. I've looked up a lot and it could be so many things I've lost count. But she had an eye infection 4 months ago so perhaps antibiotics caused thrush?

 

[helen105281]

I do think that looks like chelitis which is a former of thrush. It can wait until tomorrow but she will need some kind of fungal treatment. Ideally an oral medication like Itrafungol or Nystatin. I don't think you need to separate as fungal issues can be airborne so any contamination would have already occurred.

 

[kirstypiggies]

Thank you for your reply, I will mention that to the vet. You've put my mind at rest and maybe I needed that more than Peanut!

 

[helen105281]

No problem. Let us know how you and Peanut get on.

 

[Hank288]

It does look a lot like chelitis to me as well. It usually does have a high success rate of clearing with treatment. Vitamin c is part of the treatment process as well so no need to worry on still giving it. Speak to a cavy savy vet who can help cure this.

 

[rome_italy]

of course I don't know what that wound is, therefore if the piggie were worse than before, I would talk with another vet. Anyway a little and regular supplement of vit C (not the expensive piggies tablets, but the common cheap drops for newborns and children) is necessary in my opinion, considering that this vitamin decreases after only some hours from the harvest, all our vegs are sold after days, and this vitamin cannot even be accumulated into our body. A deficiency affects immunitary system... also in us humans. Maybe that wound needs time for healing...
I suggest you to buy Cebion, as vets suggest here (and in UK you can buy a bigger bottle, saving money). 1 drop is 6mg vit C and its taste is amazing (my piggies literally run towards the syringe).

 

[kirstypiggies]

OK, back from the vet. To summarise, after a good talk and a thorough further inspection he was adamant that the treatment plan is still the best course of action.

He said he can't rule out a fungus, but (possibly among other reasons?) treating for fungus is harmful, so not worth doing without more certainty. He had a really long close look, and also took off a loose scab for a look. He said the only way to know for sure would be to send it off to a lab for analysis. But he said under the scab it showed perfect healing! Apparently this was the first case of scurvy he's ever seen in a guinea pig, despite seeing 100 piggies a week.

He explained it takes 10 days just for vitamin C levels to return to a healthy level, and then typically a further 4 to 5 weeks to have noticeable (not complete) improvement. He said it's understandable why we worried and took her today and he might have done the same and apologised for not have had made the above clearer on the previous visit.

Thank you all for your help and reassurance, I was able to give the poor vet the 3rd degree!

 

[kirstypiggies]

I suggest you to buy Cebion, as vets suggest here (and in UK you can buy a bigger bottle, saving money). 1 drop is 6mg vit C and its taste is amazing (my piggies literally run towards the syringe).

Will do! They like the tablets but struggle to finish one a day - and other drops and powders are obnoxious and they won't touch them (and the vet said they're useless since the vit C is in the wrong form and doesn't get absorbed - I forgot the names but FYI it's actually ALL the ones sold by Pets At Home.

 

[helen105281]

Thank you for the update. Is your vet experienced with guinea pigs? it is just that sending sample off for testing for fungal usually comes back negative unless it is Ringworm, even if it is actually a fungal issue.

Here is a link regarding chelitis in case you need to show your vet.
Guinea Lynx :: Cheilitis

One for scurvy too
Guinea Lynx :: Scurvy -- Vitamin C Deficiency

 

[kirstypiggies]

Thank you for the update. Is your vet experienced with guinea pigs? it is just that sending sample off for testing for fungal usually comes back negative unless it is Ringworm, even if it is actually a fungal issue.

Here is a link regarding chelitis in case you need to show your vet.
Guinea Lynx :: Cheilitis

One for scurvy too
Guinea Lynx :: Scurvy -- Vitamin C Deficiency

Thank you, I will do that. I met a staff of a rescue centre that take piggies to that vet's, and the vet did say he treats some 100 cavy a week which was why I went to him in the first place, but rest assured if he's wrong about this and Peanut suffers, I will change vet!

 

[rome_italy]

Will do! They like the tablets but struggle to finish one a day - and other drops and powders are obnoxious and they won't touch them (and the vet said they're useless since the vit C is in the wrong form and doesn't get absorbed - I forgot the names but FYI it's actually ALL the ones sold by Pets At Home.

the right and easily assimilated form of vit C is L-ascorbic acid and it is absorbed easily from guinea pigs, too, no matter if it is in liquid or solid form. You can find a lot of medical researches also online. Anyway, there is a research which demonstrated that pigs are able to absorb also other form of vit C. I copy this research:
Redox Biol. 2016 Apr;7:8-13. doi: 10.1016/j.redox.2015.11.003. Epub 2015 Nov 21.
L-dehydroascorbic acid can substitute l-ascorbic acid as dietary vitamin C source in guinea pigs.
Frikke-Schmidt H1, Tveden-Nyborg P1, Lykkesfeldt J2.
Author information
Abstract
Vitamin C deficiency globally affects several hundred million people and has been associated with increased morbidity and mortality in numerous studies. In this study, bioavailability of the oxidized form of vitamin C (l-dehydroascorbic acid or DHA)-commonly found in vitamin C containing food products prone to oxidation-was studied. Our aim was to compare tissue accumulation of vitamin C in guinea pigs receiving different oral doses of either ascorbate or DHA. In all tissues tested (plasma, liver, spleen, lung, adrenal glands, kidney, muscle, heart, and brain), only sporadic differences in vitamin C accumulation from ascorbate or DHA were observed.
(...)
As these results contradicted data from rats, we continued to explore the ability to recycle DHA in blood, liver and intestine in guinea pigs, rats and mice. These investigations revealed that guinea pigs have similar recycling capacity in red blood cells as observed in humans, while rats and mice do not have near the same ability to reduce DHA in erythrocytes. These data demonstrate that DHA in guinea pigs-as in humans-is almost as effective as ascorbate as vitamin C source when it comes to taking up and storing vitamin C and further suggest that the guinea pig is superior to other rodents in modeling human vitamin C homeostasis.
(...)

Maybe your vet is talking of other form of supplement, the effervescent one you buy at supermarket and which can deteriorate if you let it into the pig's bottle. I am talking of drops, mixed with some drops of water and put directly into pig's mouth...
Be careful, not all the medical doctors are up-to-date, especially in certain fields. A (german) friend of mine is a vet and told me they must always follow special up-to-date classes, but usually these classes are arranged by firms producing pets' food...
Anyway, maybe here the vets earn some money from the firm producing Cebion drops, but our pigs, also the poor ones kept into the shops, have no scurvy, therefore the drug works (and it is definitely cheap).