Younger guinea pig seen very terrified of older guinea pig

[Zhi Heng]

Hi all,
This has been a worrying issue for me every now and then, when i see my younger guinea pig being very terrified of my older, bigger guinea pig. I had my younger guinea pig, Chubby when he was 6 months old in January this year, and my older guinea pig, Midnight 2 weeks after, who is about 6 months older than him. Chubby has always been very very terrified of Midnight even after their hierarchy has been established. They have lived tgt for ard 7months now, but chubby still seem as fearful of midnight. For e.g, when midnight simply do small non threatening gestures such as waking up from his nap and walking to get food etc, chubby will start whimpering and screaming, as if crying for help and begging midnight not to approach and hurt him. But the thing is midnight has NEVER drawn blood or show any outwards signs of bullying such as preventing chubby from eating or drinking etc, in fact (even tho i provide 2 of everything), sometimes when chubby eat from midnight's bowl, midnight seldom chase him away, though Chubby is very fearful when he eat from midnight's bowl... He will take a few steps forward to the bowl then flinch backwards and the process repeats... Also, when midnight approach chubby, he will suddenly freeze and become alert. Then when Midnight is about to nip his butt, chubby will make for a sprint (as if for his life), sometimes even banging into items in the enclosure. But the weird thing is that, chubby always still tries to steal midnight veggies repeatedly during veggie time (despite seeming very terrified by flinching etc) even if midnight isn't happy about it and chase him away. So now, i don't know if they are the right match and if i should keep them tgt? their dynamics are really weird because usually gp who are as terrified as chubby are usually bullied, but this doesn't seem to be the case. And i cant find anyone with similar situation as me online. Its weird becuz chubby is wayyyyyyyyyyy more afraid of midnight than me. Please advice. Thank you so much!
Background info: Chubby has lived with a GP of his age in the past who sadly passed away. Chubby was never fearful of his old buddy tho they arent and cuddly too.

 

[Zhi Heng]

Also, from the facial expression of midnight, i do think he is annoyed at chubby when he start whimpering and screaming, tho i don't know how accurate i am since they are not humans.... But has have never physically harm chubby in anyway even if he dislike him. This is a very tricky situation for me cause i dont know if having them stay tgt has more benefits than costs. and i am starting to wonder if chubby would be better on his own. Btw, chubby still behave normally a good part of the time, like he often popcorn when i sweep his floor or refill the hay, and will often walk around happily during these instances. Tho he does keep reverting back to that terrified state within every day. Basically as long as midnight start moving or isnt at the other end of the enclosure, further from him, he often start shrieking.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I might be wrong, and it is always hard to completely understand from a description alone, but it sounds like Chubby is simply being submissive to Midnight. Midnight sounds like the the boss and Chubby respects that so backs away to show his submission.
Sometimes the squeaks they make are simply for submission, not for being scared.

 

[Little Piglets]

I put a younger boar with an older one (5-6 weeks old w/6 month) and the younger guy will either follow or stay out of the way of the older guy, though he sleeps near him. Once in a rare while, the older guy might jump towards the younger guy i.e. food time from same bowl as bigger guy, but nothing further. Haven't heard any shrieks from them, though the younger guy is more vocal when walking around and checking things out.

My sow pups on the other hand (separate cage), their mom is top-guinea pig and one will sometimes get stuck in a stand-off w/mom where a pup might whine briefly and then scoots off. So clearly showing submission w/mom. Before they whined first, mom used to "poke" them with her nose/mouth THEN they'd sulk/whine. Once they realized what she was teaching them, they whine first now as if to say "I'm not a threat" or "please leave me be." On occasion, 2 pups get in a stand off with each other, and one might shriek a bit if it's being touched by another, but nothing serious about. It gets settled within a couple seconds and everyone goes about their business. Sometimes they all try and sleep in the same cubby, and there might be a few fussy shrieks, but nothing serious.

It's possible your submissive gp was raised roughly before you got it, and learned early on to act that way, OR maybe it figured out being melodramatic resulted in some sort of human intervention, etc. so it's embellishing a bit for whatever reason. They clearly have the ability to remember things, and whatever "life lessons" it picked up is what it'll probably stick with. If it had been with an aggressive guinea pig in the past (regardless of the history told to you) it might have been forced into a more submissive state or had been bitten a bunch of times, etc. and expects that behavior still, even though it isn't happening now, especially if can't "understand" what the other guine pig's intentions are (like say it was an only pup and weened early, it theoretically would have missed important social cues a large herd would have taught it). Can try making your cage larger so they have more room to stretch out and add more things to keep them busy, etc. etc..

I will say when I got my younger guy, he had a bit of an attitude. I had him initially for a trial-period and tried socializing him with a couple of my pups one on one in a "neutral" zone to gauge his social ability and he snipped at each of them immediately rather hard and actually got my finger (which I had to correct) all within 5 seconds of meeting one over 2 different periods, but with my adult boar he was 100% submissive. He'll never be in with the females, but being he was an unknown coming into an established household, I wanted to make sure he was semi-socialized given I don't want behavior issues as he gets bigger, so tried something unorthodox and put him IN the female cage while hawking over everyone. It was a risk (can't allow mounting and/or biting if it came to it and obviously don't recommend doing this), but it worked. He immediately calmed and went about sniffing. Everyone checked him out and vice versa. I let him hump a head or two but nothing from behind.

My thinking was he wasn't handled enough and was possibly weened too early. He also had numerous tiny scabs on his rear and sides and one faint one on a nose, which the vet said he thought was from an overly aggressive litter-mate. So not being handled enough or handled roughly (you just never know) coupled in with an aggressive cage-mate that was biting him hard enough to leave scabs, caused him to initially have some aggression towards a similar-aged gp that was just checking him out. Given guinea pigs don't have long lifespans, and I might have to put him with another boar at a later time i.e. older boar dies or possibly get him fixed and let him reside with others (unlikely though who knows) or I die and they go to new homes, etc., had to make sure he wasn't going to be problematic in the future. But letting him experience a healthy herd a couple times, seemed to have helped him a lot. I know it also can work with dogs going into established packs.

 

[Zhi Heng]

Hi all, thank you so much for your response! I have just recorded a video of them but it seems like it's too large to be uploaded here... I dunno how to describe the sound but basically what chubby makes is a high pitch shriek or whining like sound whenever midnight approaches him or wwhn sometimes midnight just happen to approach something near him n this will last for a few seconds until he calm down n the cycle can go on... But I can't seem to find similar behaviors or sounds like this online tho... Usually guinea pigs I see online just snatch each others food but nvr to the point where one is whining like mad just b4 his food is being snatched n or appearing terrified, n often even when midnight just do simple gestures like walking ard after a nap. (not rumblestrutting, just walking). Do u guys think this behavior is normal n not worth worrying about? Cuz I have been worried abt it cuz i dunno if its good for chubby emotional well being if he is always so terrified... But the thing is he isn't bullied too n midnight has nvr drawn blood from him so I dunno if it's worth getting another partner for chubby. Cuz the thing is I honestly dunno if getting a new partner will help chubby. Cuz maybe he is just a very scared little piggy. (the vet did mention this the first time she saw, especially cuz he peed himself after she took a sample of his hair)
Another thing I would like to ask is do u guys think chubby actl enjoy being petted or he simply dun mind being petted. Cuz I know purring is often the sign of enjoyment, but chubby almost nvr does it when I pet him, but he do often sit or lie down when I start petting him. I can literally pet him for an hr lol. N he seems very calm n chill when I pet him. Tho I dunno is he just simply like too lazy to be bothered by me or he actl enjoys it...
N last thing, abt veggies, just curious how much do u guys feed them daily? Cuz I research like literally over 100hrs since I got them, n I have seen alot contradictions in forums, videoa, articles etc like some say feed 50g, while some say feed 10% of their weight? My gp has nvr been a big eater of hay (like 2.5 kg can actl last them over 2 mths)... But the thing is I'm not feeding that much veggies or pellets too... I feed abt 1 tablespoon of pellets and abt 50 to 75g of veggies per pig.