• Discussions taking place within this forum are intended for the purpose of assisting you in discussing options with your vet. Any other use of advice given here is done so at your risk, is solely your responsibility and not that of this forum or its owner. Before posting it is your responsibility you abide by this Statement

6 Year Old With Dilated Cardiomyopathy

Status
Not open for further replies.
piggyme234

piggyme234

Adult Guinea Pig
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
1,435
Reaction score
213
Points
530
Location
Hull
Nutmeg has just been diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy. Last night I noticed she had developed fluid retention and here breathing was harsh. I gave her some frusemide and we saw the vet as soon as we could this morning.

She is now on vetmedin as well as the frusemide and the fluid is noticeably reduced, not totally gone but better. The vet trip totally exhausted her but she was up and nomming lettuce again after I stopped at the shop for her on the way home.

Has anyone else had this before? The vet didn't really want to get my hopes up I think but does anyone have any idea how long she might have?
 
I have pigs on heart meds but am not good with the technical names of the conditions. Has she been prescribed an ACE inhibitor aswell as the Vetmedin? I think it is a case of finding the right balance with all of the meds and seeing how she does. An example of an ACE inhibitor would be Fortekor which is Benazapril. I always thought Vetmedin had to be added in once the ACE inhibitor was not effective enough on it's own. Do you have to give the diuretic daily?
 
There may be a reason for it, none of mine except Nigel have needed Vetmedin yet, and that was a few years ago. If I remember correctly @Adelle has a pig on Vetmedin.
 
When I saw the scan video this morning you could hardly see her heart contracting. It could be that it is so bad that he wanted to get her on the strong stuff ASAP. I will ring in the morning and see what he says.
 
That could well be it, bless her, sounds serious. Hopefully the meds will kick in and help soon.
 
Yeah she looked in a bad way until you had food, then she was trying to eat anything that came near her in case it was tasty. Then she would tire herself out.
 
Yeah, I have to keep separating her from the others so she gets her fair share as she is a bit slow eating at the moment.
 
Sending you vibes! I hope that the heart meds kick in and she improves! it is a good sign that she still has the strength and will to eat. Make sure that you have water and hay nearby.
 
I have a sow with heart failure, never went for further investigation of a scan etc as it wouldnt change yhe outcome- it really is trial and error with meds. From my knowledge usually fortekor is the base heart med and vetmedin will usually be added in later if fortekor alone isnt effective enough- or added at the same time if it is known to support the specific abnormality with the heart, usually a murmur.

My sow is 7 in march, her initial symptoms where seeming off for 2 months until her fluid finally filled with fluid and heart failure was diagnosed after xray. She was started on fortekor and frusemide. Base dose of frusemide wasnt enough so she was put on high end dose to keep fluid under control- this was meant to be temporary but 6 months in and she still requires same dose. The fortekor works from the point of keeping the circulation up, and slowing down any further disease. We added in vetmedin as sometimes there was a VERY faint murmur detected- this made fudge very poorly and it was in her best interest to stop it all together. It just wasnt suitable for her and she couldnt tolerate it.

I managed to bring her back from that very bad spell to become stable again, and she slowly gained non fluid weight. This was due to addition of another diuretic- spironolactone- which i think
Is the only reason fudge is with me today. This should only be added in once high, regular doses of frusemide arent controlling the fluid.

She now weighs only 50g less than her healthy weight, 8 months after initial symptoms started and 6 months after treatment started. She is happy, lively and has a good quality of life.

With frusemide, the recommended dose is 2-4mg every 8-12 hours. If your piggy needs more than 4mg i.e she still has fluid retention, dont increase the dose but increase the frequency (how often u give it). Higher than 4mg wont provide any further effect but can damage the kidneys, a higher risk than the already risky use of diuretics.

The aim is to have them stable
On heart meds so that no fluid builds up and the use of diuretics can stop- this isnt always possible. Fudge is stable, but high end frusemide is what she needs to be stable. Its just the way it is and i would rather have her for a shorter time when she is happy, than longer but miserable. In saying that, not one single vet (specialist included thought she'd last till october.)

Shes had a recent blip due to human error, but she will bounce back.

This isnt a death sentence, fudge is beating the odds. Your piggy will too hopefully, its just a matter of persevering until then xx
 
Adelle said:
I have a sow with heart failure, never went for further investigation of a scan etc as it wouldnt change yhe outcome- it really is trial and error with meds. From my knowledge usually fortekor is the base heart med and vetmedin will usually be added in later if fortekor alone isnt effective enough- or added at the same time if it is known to support the specific abnormality with the heart, usually a murmur.

My sow is 7 in march, her initial symptoms where seeming off for 2 months until her fluid finally filled with fluid and heart failure was diagnosed after xray. She was started on fortekor and frusemide. Base dose of frusemide wasnt enough so she was put on high end dose to keep fluid under control- this was meant to be temporary but 6 months in and she still requires same dose. The fortekor works from the point of keeping the circulation up, and slowing down any further disease. We added in vetmedin as sometimes there was a VERY faint murmur detected- this made fudge very poorly and it was in her best interest to stop it all together. It just wasnt suitable for her and she couldnt tolerate it.

I managed to bring her back from that very bad spell to become stable again, and she slowly gained non fluid weight. This was due to addition of another diuretic- spironolactone- which i think
Is the only reason fudge is with me today. This should only be added in once high, regular doses of frusemide arent controlling the fluid.

She now weighs only 50g less than her healthy weight, 8 months after initial symptoms started and 6 months after treatment started. She is happy, lively and has a good quality of life.

With frusemide, the recommended dose is 2-4mg every 8-12 hours. If your piggy needs more than 4mg i.e she still has fluid retention, dont increase the dose but increase the frequency (how often you give it). Higher than 4mg wont provide any further effect but can damage the kidneys, a higher risk than the already risky use of diuretics.

The aim is to have them stable
On heart meds so that no fluid builds up and the use of diuretics can stop- this isnt always possible. Fudge is stable, but high end frusemide is what she needs to be stable. Its just the way it is and i would rather have her for a shorter time when she is happy, than longer but miserable. In saying that, not one single vet (specialist included thought she'd last till october.)

Shes had a recent blip due to human error, but she will bounce back.

This isnt a death sentence, fudge is beating the odds. Your piggy will too hopefully, its just a matter of persevering until then xx
Click to expand...
Thanks. What kind of symptoms did Fudge get from the vetmedin? I am not sure on the maths how to figure out how much of the frusemide oral suspension is 2-4mg. I am ringing the vets in the morning to see about getting some fortekor for her. I will ask about that too.
 
She was very lethargic, fluffed up, went off her food and had very bad diarrohea- it was horrible. But one of the vets at my practice has her piggy on vetmedin and he has tolerated it well for some time.

What concentration is your frusemide? And what volume has the vet recommended u give him? Your vet has done the investigations so he will know best on what he think he requires at the moment.

Usually it will be 20mg/5ml solution which means there is 4mg in 1ml of frusemide liquid, therefore 2mg in 0.5ml of liquid. If its 40mg/5ml solution, then there is 8mg in 1ml of frusemide, therefore 4mg in 0.5ml of liquid and 2mg in 0.25ml liquid.

Also fortekor is used to support kidneys in cats with kidney problems- it is assumed it has the same properties with guinea pigs which is useful as an insuficient heart puts pressure on the kidneys and vice versa- also diuretics can affect the kidneys. If your vet thinks its a good idea to add in fortekor and your piggy tolerates it well then it would be beneficial from the kidneys point of view too.

piggyme234 said:
Thanks. What kind of symptoms did Fudge get from the vetmedin? I am not sure on the maths how to figure out how much of the frusemide oral suspension is 2-4mg. I am ringing the vets in the morning to see about getting some fortekor for her. I will ask about that too.
Click to expand...
 
Adelle said:
She was very lethargic, fluffed up, went off her food and had very bad diarrohea- it was horrible. But one of the vets at my practice has her piggy on vetmedin and he has tolerated it well for some time.

What concentration is your frusemide? And what volume has the vet recommended you give him? Your vet has done the investigations so he will know best on what he think he requires at the moment.

Usually it will be 20mg/5ml solution which means there is 4mg in 1ml of frusemide liquid, therefore 2mg in 0.5ml of liquid. If its 40mg/5ml solution, then there is 8mg in 1ml of frusemide, therefore 4mg in 0.5ml of liquid and 2mg in 0.25ml liquid.

Also fortekor is used to support kidneys in cats with kidney problems- it is assumed it has the same properties with guinea pigs which is useful as an insuficient heart puts pressure on the kidneys and vice versa- also diuretics can affect the kidneys. If your vet thinks its a good idea to add in fortekor and your piggy tolerates it well then it would be beneficial from the kidneys point of view too.
Click to expand...
Thanks, It is the 40mg/5ml solution. He has said I can give her it 3 times a day now. He went though with me all the things that each drug does and it was that her heart is beating so weakly that he wants to keep her on the vetmedin. He doesn't want to add fortekor just yet in case it decreases her blood pressure too much so we will see how she goes and maybe add fortekor later.
 
piggyme234 said:
Thanks, It is the 40mg/5ml solution. He has said I can give her it 3 times a day now. He went though with me all the things that each drug does and it was that her heart is beating so weakly that he wants to keep her on the vetmedin. He doesn't want to add fortekor just yet in case it decreases her blood pressure too much so we will see how she goes and maybe add fortekor later.
Click to expand...

So its an 8mg in 1ml liquid- standard maintenance dose will be 0.25ml (2mg) twice daily, but this isnt realistic usually. If twice daily isnt enough, try every 8 hours instead. Dont exceed 0.5ml (4mg) every 8 hours. If you feel he is stable at any point and could manage on a lower dose of frusemide, do try it and monitor him. The less he requires to be stable, the better.

If you are ever in a crisis despite using 0.5ml (4mg) every 8 hours, you can add an extra dose in between two 8 hour doses- but this should only be a temporary relief until he sees the vet again. Never give more then 0.5ml (4mg) in one go, as this will only pose a threat and wont have any beneficial effect.

It might be worth giving him dioralyte (a rehydration sachet) if he will be on this long term, especially if a higher dose. Frusemide use can cause an electrolyte imbalance due to increased urination, mainly low potassium. Natural dioralyte is best, but this one actually upsets fudges tummy whereas the blackcurrent one doesnt (i have no explanation for this one!) it is made up by adding 1 sachet to 200ml of water, stirring and serving. It can be stored in the fridge for up to 24 hours, i store mine in a systema soup cup. I serve her veggies chopped up on a deep plate, with the dioralyte solution poured on and mixed in- a small amount of veg every 8 hours with her meds. Theres usually liquid left at the end but she does get some when eating from the bowl. She drinks significantly more when she doesnt have dioralyte, so it definately helps to keep her hydrated and shes never had any electrolyte related issues since using it despite being on high doses of frusemide since last August!

Sorry for the overload of info, i know it can be overwhelming!
 
Great tip for the dioralyte thank you - I've been just giving it to Mr Ted in a syringe.
 
VickiA said:
Great tip for the dioralyte thank you - I've been just giving it to Mr Ted in a syringe.
Click to expand...

Keep a little cotton pad handy, you'll need it to wipe his chin afterwards as it gets soaking wet haha
 
My Ellie was 8yrs old & had a heart murmur, she had Nelio (ACE inhibitor) & also frusimide when needed
she had nelio (2.5mg tablets for cats) my vet put her on quarter of a tablet twice daily (as evenly spaced as possible).
so her starting daily dose was 1.25mg in total. i'm not sure of the different strengths of nelio & fortekor though. although i believe they do the same job, just different names.
unfortunately i lost Ellie not long afterwards due to multiple health issues & also i believe much too long a delay (weeks) between trialling heart meds & me suggesting heart problems initially.

Adelle has given you loads of information & i can't add anything further.

i'll just send a heap of healing vibes & hope you can Nutmeg stabilised quickly :nod:

fingers & paws all crossed here. xx
 
Sorry to hear about your little one.

I have had two with heart problems in the last month. Sadly heart disease is both common and very under diagnosed. Sounds like everyone has been givi great advice. I agree with an ACE inhibitor but it may be worth taking one step at a time. Spending a bit of time on just the vetmedin and furesimide to see the response and then if no better starting an ACE inhibitor. Sadly outcome is be variable depending on severity of the hear failure and the stage at which it has been picked up (the earlier the better). I have known piggies to last 18 months, others only a week, it really does depend. But the good thing is that you have started treatment. Watch for signs of increased breathing rate, pale gums, not willing to eat or move, these will be signs she's not doing well. I would suggest a quick heart scan to check exactly how much fluid is in there, if any. No, it won't change the diagnosis, but it will help with monitoring how she responds to medication (repeating a scan every few weeks initially).

Thinking of you both, hope she does well.

x
 
Hey, sorry to hear your piggy has been diagnosed with this. I had a piggy a number of years ago with a heart condition and she was on frusemide and vetmedin. I can't remember the doses though, I'm going to the vets tomorrow and could ask for a copy of her history and let you know though. She went on happily for another year once diagnosed, then went downhill very suddenly and quickly. I think the medication definitely helped.
 
Thanks everyone. She had a bad day yesterday, very lethargic, strings of tiny sticky poops, not eating, it was very worrying. She spent several hours lying in the cuddle pocket with me, flat out, just gasping and wheezing. Thankfully she has now started to improve, her breathing is no longer noisy but it is still sharp breaths and you can see her chest moving, she has started to eat from the dish again and had loads of veggies for tea tonight. She was even back to her usual bossy self, smacking Toby and Jemima when the tried to push her away from the water bottle. They always want to use it at the same time, I don't know why and she always paws at their faces even though Jemima is above her in the pecking order. The best thing of all NORMAL POOPS!
She is on 0.25ml of frusemide every 8 hours. She is coming to work with me tomorrow so I can give her the tea time meds as I work funny hours on Mondays. I will get some dioralyte for her, thanks @Adelle
 
Sorry I haven't been on for a while. I'm afraid we lost Nutmeg a few weeks ago, not long after I was last on here. Her little heart had obviously had enough.
 
piggyme234 said:
Sorry I haven't been on for a while. I'm afraid we lost Nutmeg a few weeks ago, not long after I was last on here. Her little heart had obviously had enough.
Click to expand...

I am ever so sorry for your loss. :(
RIP Nutmeg

Thanks for letting us know!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top