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Any Ideas Please? Unexplained Weight Loss And Bloods 'all Within Normal Limits'.

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PammyRay

PammyRay

Junior Guinea Pig
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Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Hello, I'm really hoping someone can help us out a bit here, Pickle (background avatar pig) has always been a healthy pig around 1300g -1350g but has been slowly and gradually losing weight over the last 6 months, although his appetite remains strong and he is very perky - popcorning a lot when out running around and often up at the side of his cage after some sort of treat.

He's 3 years old, we got him at 5 months from the local rescue along with his brother who sadly passed away in May this year (kidney stone/ operation/ bloat / heart issues). Pickle was the dominant one and was alone and sad for one week before we found him 5 week old Muffin via a bonding date at the rescue.

I weigh my pigs a few times a week, once a day with Pickle at the moment, so I am current with their weight status. I'd noticed some weight loss after Maccy died and kept my eye on it. In September his weight was around 1150g so I took him to the vet (an exotics specialist who sees a lot of piggies). He examined him and looked in his mouth and said there wasn't anything clinically wrong that he could see but to monitor it and come back if it fell another 100g. This concerned me seeing as Pickle had already lost 150g at this point.

He continued to very gradually drop in weight and when he was at 1080g my partner took him back to the vet again early November. Again the vet was not too worried, we discussed blood tests but as they cost £225 and the vet didn't think they were hugely necessary at that point we came away again. The vet said that he was probably overweight to begin with and this was a better weight for him to be.

Last week he was down to 1010g so I booked him in for a blood test, beforehand the vet gave him another examination, massaging him under his jaw. I am very worried at this declining loss as this is just not like Pickle at all, he has always been a 'sturdy' pig and now he is bony along his back and bottom. The results came back yesterday, the vet said it's extensive; for proteins, glucose, organ functioning but that all the levels were within normal limits. The vet mentioned again that Pickle has not suffered any huge losses in weight and that 1.3kg is too heavy. I'm aggravated by that to be honest because whilst he's not losing huge amounts at any one time he is now 300g lower than his 'normal' weight. Today he weighed 995g. :( I told the vet I disagreed with his stance on the weight loss and he did concede that 1150g down to 1010g was a fair drop. We have discussed doing a faecal test for parasites, at my suggestion, but the vet said it is very rare and he doesn't think it's that. Whilst Pickle was under GA for the blood test the vet did a more thorough dental examination and said all looked good there.

A couple of weeks ago I gave him a 0.5ml dose of 4 seasons anti-parasitic herbal worming.

My fiance and I do think he is drinking and urinating more than usual and he seems to be eating a lot. If anyone can offer any insights we'd be very grateful x
 
how much did his brother weigh? could he have eaten the majority of the food hence now he's gone, pickle has gradually lost weight? also depression after losing a friend can cause weight loss aswell. has he been more energetic since being partnered with a young baby piggy, and therefore might have lost weight that way?

it's less worrying that he is losing gradually than sudden big drops, especially as he is also acting perky and eating well. but i do agree that it does seem alot none the less.

another thought that came to mind was possibly something genetic like his brother had, if they were related? early stages of heart issues?

i also thought something going on inside but with the blood results, that would be unusual without showing. the only one that wouldn't show yet would be kidney disease as it only shows when function is less than a certain amount - 25% i believe. with this though, they tend to seem a bit 'off' initially and appear to puff up and gain weight before gradually dropping over time. this is where increased drinking and urination may come into play.

it sounds like it may be one of those things you will have to keep an eye on and repeat testing along the way if things continue the way they have been. the vet sounds savvy to me (they could possibly do xrays aswell to check for any abnormalities if they haven't already and agree that testing poop aswell would be useful) but if you don't feel quite right with things, then there is never any harm getting another opinion (vet locator at the top may help)

he could well be hiding something very well, and you certainly know him better than anyone, so i think keep a close eye as you have been, and take things on a short term basis. it's nice that he is at least feeling well enough to popcorn and beg for food anyway.

hopefully others will have more ideas for you aswell x
 
If he's bright and eating well but still losing weight I would consider doing thyroid levels. Hyperthyroidism is very under diagnosed in Guinea pigs so it's worth looking into. As well as this I would suggest the feacal test for parasites, full body X-rays and then see what you get from this. I'm afraid it's just a case of ruling out problems. If weightless is occurring then it's either doing one of three things
- he's not eating enough (eg dental problems or pain is stopping him)
- he's no absorbing enough (eg primarily guy issue not absorbing)
- the energy from food is being used up elswhere (eg thyroid issues, cancers etc)

Hope this helps a little. Good luck.

x
 
Sorry to hear Pickle is not well, its awful seeing them deteriorate and I agree with you that he has lost a lot of weight which isn't normal!

I agree that hyperthyroidism should be your next port of call for investigations. Myself and @jenniferanneharris both had thyroid piggies diagnosed through bloods - though as it is a relatively new area of diagnostics there are differing opinions on what 'normal' blood levels should be, I'd be happy to dig out Cash's blood results if you'd like to see them for any comparison. I think I also have details of Jenny's piggy which I'm sure she wouldn't mind me sharing if she is no longer on the forum actively (I haven't been around here myself in ages!). Either way the most prominent symptom for Cash was drastic and continual weight loss as you describe, he went from being a chunky little monkey of 1.2/3 to under 900g!
You could attempt to try raise Pickles weight by giving him some high calorie food like baby corn or oats.

Good luck, hope you can get to the bottom of things x
 
Thanks so much everyone that is all really helpful and I'd never heard about thyroid issues until now, I'm going to explore that!

@Tbag I've read Cash's posts with keen interest - I'm so sorry he didn't make it, he and Tango look like real cuties in the grass picture. I am glad though of the nuggets of advice you can give as a result of your experience and seeing as Pickle's brother had an enlarged heart (probably linked to his kidney problems) I don't take the thyroid / heart link potential lightly - even more the reason to check it out. Thanks x

@Abi_nurse and @Tbag - Will Pickle have to have another blood test for the thyroid related levels or do you think they would have been drawn from the one he has just had and it is more a matter of re-checking what they were? I haven't actually seen the levels myself so I'll request them from the vets asap. Abi' that checklist is really helpful and its reassuring to have it methodically broken down in that way, at least then I know I'm doing everything I can, exploring every avenue. I'm confident the first instance of not eating enough can be ruled out, if anything his appetite has increased - so that leaves the other two.

Last night I gave Pickle another dose of the 4 seasons herbal worming solution, and another tonight, I'm following the dosage instructions for when a 'worm burden' is suspected. I don't know if it's a coincidence but he's 1005g today (minor 10g fluctuation up I know!) I had discussed worming with the vet prior to our last visit over the phone, which he was happy with me doing either herbally or 'medically' and had sent me 'Lapizole 20mg/ml'. I think the herbal one will be less testing on his gut flora so have gone with that.

@biscandmatt Thanks for your reassurance. His brother was always the lighter one and Pickle definitely wore the trousers, which so far, he still seems to be doing with his new follower! :) He has definitely been more energetic since being with Muffin who is manic at times! :) That's what I initially put it down to myself. Now though I'm not so convinced. X-rays may well be the way forward, would they show up kidney disease? He is weeing a lot, I'm cleaning out the cage more regularly and he doesn't last as long out for cuddles before asking to go back (pulling our clothes in his teeth).

Just to say also I do have confidence in the vet, he has been recommended by several other local practises, it's just the slight disagreement with the stance on weight loss that I get tetchy about because I'm worried! :) Also to say, for anyone that followed Maccy's post - this is a different vet to the brilliant one that saw him through his operation, towards is end I changed jobs and had to find one closer as it was so much of a trek for us and the pigs on public transport each time, particularly in an emergency.

Thanks again all, fingers crossed x
 
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xrays wouldn't show kidney disease i don't think. i'd have thought being a good vet that they would have palpated his body before now to feel for any abnormalities. with eddie's kidney disease, the vet could feel one kidney was already shrivelled up so could hardly be felt. then bloods confirmed it. so it's probably a long shot with your boy but thought i'd mention anyway.

it seems thyroid might be the one to look into after other peoples posts.

best of luck anyway x
 
I think we had to specifically request they tested bloods for thyroxine - best check with your vet, and you can request a copy of Pickles blood results anyway for your own records should you want to.
Good luck with further diagnostics!
 
Pickle has dropped in weight again, about 935g now so I've booked him in today for another blood test to check his thyroid levels as the last one didn't pick them up.
I'll ask about an xray too, really don't want for him to undergo this again so I want to get everything done this time. Is there anything else they should check with his bloods this time?
 
I would definitely Xray him my little Penfold was losing weight and nothing was found during the Examination but the vet agreed that something was definitely not right. On Xray there was a structure, the vet then decided to do an ultrasound and checked both kidneys which one was chalked full of stones. This was not felt on examination and Penfold did not show any signs of pain well he was palpated. Our blood results also showed severely compromised kidneys the vet advised kidney disease only shows when 40% is compromised.
 
I agree that a kidney problem could be the cause. An X ray will show any calcification in the kidneys, but probably not inflamation, which would be more of an ultrasound thing. I would have thought that the urine would show signs of blood/protein with a kidney problem though. Keep us posted. I hope you can get to the botoom of the problem. You are quite right to keep questioning the vet. You know your piggy best.
 
@Elwickcavies

Amazingly enough, Penfold's Urine test only showed very diluted Urine no blood was present. Despite being so comprised, he never so much as squeaked when urinating. His bloodwork revealed just how compromised he is, I am now providing palliative care for my little man. Obviously pain is an issue as he has been losing weight, I've had a bladder pig in the past who was in agony, I have Penfold and Wilma who both have never cried when stones are present. Penfold is now on very effective pain killers. I'm never going to be so quick to rule out stones again. It very much depends on the pig.
 
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Thanks everyone, sorry it's taken over a week for an update I've been waiting for results and had a few discussions with the vet...

So I had Pickle x-rayed at the same time as his second lot of bloods and it did show up a stone which appears to be in his ureter near the entrance to the bladder. However, the vet is unconvinced that this is the problem, he said it's quite small (although personally I think it's larger than the one we had removed from Pickle's brother's ureter a year ago) and that they see many piggies with stones in their ureter that don't cause problems as the urine is able to pass around it. He also didn't think that Pickle was in pain and that he hadn't shown any signs of discomfort when he examined his abdomen. He also said that the previous blood work came back normal in all areas and didn't show any signs of compromised organs, nor did the xray show any abnormalities like enlarged kidneys.
(At this point I'm quite unsure about dismissing the stone, having been through an op with his brother etc and I'm thinking it could be the reason for weight loss?)

He'd also checked his teeth again when he was under GA, this time he said that he did find that some were growing horizontally but there was no bridging and they were not long and did not look like they were causing any issues at the moment, though could be something to be aware of in the future. I'm quite confident that his teeth aren't the problem - he is eating much more than normal and constantly asks for food (a change in behavoiur).

So we waited for the thyroxine levels...his T4 level was 59.2 but deemed within normal limits by the lab whose baseline range for GPs is between 14.2 - 66.9. This flagged up a concern in my mind as I had read Cash's posts by @Tbag who'd highlighted the variation in what is considered 'normal' by different vets/research. Still concerned about the stone and the vet dismissing hyperthyroidism we discuss where to go from here, the vet thinks a urine sample is worth checking just in case it shows up some abnormalities which relate to the kidneys. We also discuss the possibility that Pickle could be in pain and hiding it, that the stone may be causing issues, so the vet suggests we try Pickle on some painkilllers and see if it improves things and maybe run more tests.

I'm a complete Guinea Pig slave and will do everything I can to see them right but at this stage I'm getting frustrated and all these tests and vets visits (every few weeks over some months) are getting expensive! ah! My fiance - also just as much of a slave - also felt similarly. We have a feeling its his thyroid - loss of weight, increased appetitie, change in behaviour always up at the bars, increased urination...So I got onto google and on here and researched thyroxine levels a bit harder. I found a couple of published papers that discuss thyroxine levels, one references the 14.2 - 66.9 study and says the authors of that themselves note that the levels are much higher than previously published by others where the top range was about 15. Another study had 57 as the top for males.

I spoke to the vet yesterday, presented my findings and he was very open and agreed Pickle was near the top of the range and he hadn't completely ruled it out and that it would make more sense to him if its the cause, over the stone. He's open to trialing Pickle on some medication and seeing how he goes. He's going to go and do a bit of research and get back to me next week! I feel like this is right thing, I just hope we can get it sorted.

Phew!... sorry looooooooong post.
 
I'm guessing by uretre you are speaking about the stone being in the tube between the bladder and kidneys? Having had a guinea pig who wasn't the best at masking pain I can tell you he was in huge amounts of pain because of a stone in his uretre. My understanding is stones are very painful, also if his kidneys are compromised it's not likely to show until a significant amount of damage is already done.

I am glad you are going to trial painkillers as it may very well be that your little man is very good at hiding what he's not eating.
 
thanks, yeah that's the tube I'm talking about. I know, I was surprised to hear the vet say he wasn't too concerned about the stone and we went through an operation with Pickle's brother for the same thing and he was in a lot of pain and had masked some of it.
It's so hard to determine what's going on! I've started with the painkillers so will keep a close eye on him, he's down to 900g now :(.
 
Ahh I feel your pain, it can be so hard to get a diagnosis sometimes.

I think as you've found a stone (probable cause) then I'd go with trying to treat that and see what happens from there, keeping hyperthyroidism at the back of your minds as the next thing to investigate further if you still have no results. Cash and Haven (the other piggy I know of on here to have been diagnosed with hyperthyroidism) were both diagnosed with the condition at levels of 60 and 63 respectively so definitely do keep it in mind, as well as keeping an open mind to the stone being the culprit!

Hang in there, lots of cuddles, weigh daily and get all the food and fluids you can into him! x
 
I could be getting my pigs mixed up here but the vet you are seeing, is it one I recommended? If so, I know he as a rule does not operate if it is in the ureter, but I could be wrong.
 
I have another piggy who has one kidney which is chalked full of stones and no longer functioning I don't imagine this kidney is painful as it's fully compromised. The other kidney has multiple stones in the uretre. He is very much up and down due to the pain his episodes can be very severe when the stone's move, and today was decision day only for him to rally again. I need to make a decision based on if or not the good days outweigh the bad. There is nothing we can do for him and perhaps he might be in more pain than your boy but what I can say both my piggies affected by uretre stones have lost a huge amount of weight and are in obvious pain. Both piggies have been on Tramadol an opiate pain killer and my current Piggy is on the maximum dose. I really think it is likely the stone is the cause although many vets will not operate on uretre few have did such an operation because of how major and difficult surgery can be.

I saw you said your previous guinea had a uretre stone, do you mean uretre or was it most likely in the bladder?
 
Thanks @Tbag, I wish he could speak! It's surprised me that the vet has played the stone down and I feel like I'm going in circles a bit. @helen105281 it's a different vet now to the one you recommended for Macky (Pickle's brother) this one is more local to me, I'm unable to take so much time off work now to make the long journeys on public transport so sadly had to change - I've thought about giving him a call though. That vet did operate on Macky's stone which was in his Ureter @flintstones (between kidney and bladder), he doesn't do many and not when there are stones in both sides but he did it for Macky as it was just one side and the last resort.

Can anyone explain a bit more how pain affects weight? Is it just that they eat less because they are in pain or does being in pain use up more energy? I'm a bit confused because Pickle seems to be eating more, begging for food all the time and definitely has a positive appetite. Mine are indoor piggies and live in our main living room so we're around them a lot when we come home from work and I see him eating much more than Muffin. This is different to last year just before Macky (now a rainbow pig) had his op - he was off hay and pellets and only wanted to eat cucumber.

I've had Pickle on the painkiller (0.3ml metacam [dog] x 1 a day) since Friday and he's weighing in at 940g today, (not sure how much of that is food / full belly), so that's suggesting to me that the stone maybe causing him some issues? But his appetite is the confusing bit.

Thanks for your thoughts @flintstones, I know how unusual it is for a vet to operate on a stone in the ureter - the previous vet did well with Macky but unfortunately he suffered other complications some months after the op including heart problems and bloat and he really was a poorly boy at the end, I was nursing him round the clock for some time. I don't regret the operation it gave him another few months of popcorning around but I would give great consideration to it for another pig, only as a last resort if indeed possible and if certain that its the issue without any other solution. I'm sorry you're facing the tough decision of what to do with your boy, they can be so couragous, sending you lots of hugs.
 
@PammyRay good to hear of another vet operating on the uretre. My vet did this for my little P many years ago, we didn't realise the location of the stone until P was on the operating table, the vet called and I authorised him to continue with the operation. His stone was also removed he recovered remarkably well and went on to live for another 6 months he was an older boy. I think it might be worthwhile calling your old vet and asking for his opinion?

I suppose it depends how the pig reacts to pain, are you sure he's always eating as I have one pig who always looks like he is rummaging for food but he's not really eating much.

Thank you for your kind wishes, Penfold has astounded me with how much they can endure. I do understand the phrase ' guinea pigs can be hardy little critters '.
 
:) They are such soldiers, when I think of what Mac went through at the end. I had to take tramadol myself when I went through a bad wisdom tooth situation, I won't go into exact details but it was the worst pain I've had and the only thing that would even touch it was tramadol, I ended up feeling a little 'floaty' at one point - it's pretty strong! What a brave boy he is.
I'm confident Pickle is eating I watch him quite a lot but I will keep a close eye, it's a good point and I see what you mean. I may still give the other vet a call, I have a photo of the x-ray so I can always send him that. This vet is good too, just a different type of approach I guess. This vet said he has operated twice before on a stones in the ureter but its something he hardly ever does because its so difficult and he has to be certain its the right thing to do before considering it.
One thing I've just remembered I picked up on here for mac and maybe you do this already, you could try making up some pearl barley water to help with the pain and any stone movement. I might start that up again for Pickle come to think of it!
 
I don't think it would hurt to give your old vet a call and just see what their thoughts are. A different/fresh approach might be just whats needed x
 
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