Bad Idea - Help Asap

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chesca_27

chesca_27

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Basically, my best friend has an intact male guinea pig called Pepper. He lives on his own and has done for a couple years now, since his cage mate died. I have tried to convince her to adopt another boar by showing her a few local rescues and the rescue where I got Pemba.

Anyway, that's not the point of this thread. Pepper's pet sitter has just been given a single intact female guinea pig, who she can't permanently care for. Pepper lived next door to this single female in the summer at the pet sitter and apparently they were friends and had 'supervised' veggie time together and got on very well.

My best friend and her mum are taking Pepper over later to meet this female guinea pig Nutmeg for a supervised visit to see if they get on and to make sure they don't breed. If this works, Nutmeg will be speyed and her old owners will pay for it. Then they will try and bond them together. Pepper is young enough (I think he's 4 but my best friend isn't even sure) to be neutered and has been under anaesthetic before but they can't afford to neuter him.

I have tried to explain that speying is very risky and should only be done for medical reasons, but they won't listen. I have also tried to explain that you can't separate guinea pigs once you start to try and bond them but my explanations are being drowned out.

I really care for the welfare of these piggies but I can't care for any more piggies. Ideally, they would neuter Pepper first or take him to a rescue for bonding. I have recommended This Little Piggie Richmond to them for bonding Pepper but they have their hearts set on bonding Nutmeg.

Please help me come up with reasons as to why they shouldn't be bonded together and the health risks involved.
 
Also, I only found this out this morning.

I can't afford to lose this friendship as she and her twin sister are my best friends and I'm really bad at making friends.

I am quite close with her mum who also thinks this is a good idea and I have tried explaining why it's not.
 
It appears they have their mind made up and I understand how frustrating it can be but arguing is only going to make them defend their opinion more. Perhaps look at it from their point of view and agree that yes they've fallen for Nutmeg and can offer a good home but what if they were to get Nutmeg only for her to pass whilst after or during the operation? Perhaps suggest ways they could save money to neuter Pepper. As for the rescue idea, take on board your friends wishes but perhaps show her a piggy whom you think is an ideal friend for Pepper and explain why you think the Nutmeg idea is wrong. Say you value your friendship and understand its their decision but you are only trying to help and you don't want to see your friend hurt by a possible problem with Nutmeg. :) hope this helps a little
 
You are quite right that spaying is a very invasive procedure and should only be done for medical reasons.

It is also not a good idea for your friend to keep letting Pepper and Nutmeg meet even under supervision. Not only is this very upsetting and distressing for the guinea pigs to start getting friendly and then being seperated again but it only takes seconds for a boar to impregnate a sow.

What they are doing is very risky and Nutmeg could fall pregnant despite their best efforts to seperate if they begin to mate.

Also, even if Pepper and Nutmeg are getting on now, there is no guarantee they will get on once she has been spayed and they are together in the same cage as each time piggies are taken away from each other, the whole bonding process and acceptance starts all over again.

Good luck. You sound like a very caring friend x
 
chesca_27 said:
Basically, my best friend has an intact male guinea pig called Pepper. He lives on his own and has done for a couple years now, since his cage mate died. I have tried to convince her to adopt another boar by showing her a few local rescues and the rescue where I got Pemba.

Anyway, that's not the point of this thread. Pepper's pet sitter has just been given a single intact female guinea pig, who she can't permanently care for. Pepper lived next door to this single female in the summer at the pet sitter and apparently they were friends and had 'supervised' veggie time together and got on very well.

My best friend and her mum are taking Pepper over later to meet this female guinea pig Nutmeg for a supervised visit to see if they get on and to make sure they don't breed. If this works, Nutmeg will be speyed and her old owners will pay for it. Then they will try and bond them together. Pepper is young enough (I think he's 4 but my best friend isn't even sure) to be neutered and has been under anaesthetic before but they can't afford to neuter him.

I have tried to explain that speying is very risky and should only be done for medical reasons, but they won't listen. I have also tried to explain that you can't separate guinea pigs once you start to try and bond them but my explanations are being drowned out.

I really care for the welfare of these piggies but I can't care for any more piggies. Ideally, they would neuter Pepper first or take him to a rescue for bonding. I have recommended This Little Piggie Richmond to them for bonding Pepper but they have their hearts set on bonding Nutmeg.

Please help me come up with reasons as to why they shouldn't be bonded together and the health risks involved.
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Hi! Spaying is a major operation, but it is not quite as risky as you are making out, especially not with a good vet!
I have more than one older/frail sow coming through an emergency spay perfectly well. Like with all these things, choosing a good vet goes a long way to minimising the risks.

The advantage of a spay is that once a sow has fully recovered after 3-4 weeks, there is no need for a safety wait. Because it is a larger operation, it is more expensive; the risk of fatalities is also generally a bit higher than with neutering, but the statitistics are not quite comparable since any sows that are spayed are often much older than neutered boars.

For these reasons, neutering boars is generally the preferred option when it comes to elective de-sexing although I know of Canadian, US and one New Zealandian rescue that are having single or even all sows spayed routinely and in some cases using a vet who prefers spaying to boar neutering. Sadly, the only rescue in the UK with a spaying policy has closed down 3 years ago, but I have still got overlooked spayed sows that adopted from them when they were dealing with a lot of pregnant sows that had been dumped on their drive early one Sunday morning (and which sadly proved the nail in the coffin of that rescue).

Please take a deep breath and a step back! The one dodgy point about the whole plan is the pre-op intro, but as the girl is being spayed afterwards, there won't be any risk of a pregnancy if a mating happens. Hopefully the two piggies will like each other. If they don't (or she is not in season), a sow will not allow a boar to mate her. ;)

Please give your friend our post-op and syringe feeding care links in case the op is a rougher ride than planned.
Tips For Post-operative Care
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide
 
Jesse's pigs said:
It appears they have their mind made up and I understand how frustrating it can be but arguing is only going to make them defend their opinion more. Perhaps look at it from their point of view and agree that yes they've fallen for Nutmeg and can offer a good home but what if they were to get Nutmeg only for her to pass whilst after or during the operation? Perhaps suggest ways they could save money to neuter Pepper. As for the rescue idea, take on board your friends wishes but perhaps show her a piggy whom you think is an ideal friend for Pepper and explain why you think the Nutmeg idea is wrong. Say you value your friendship and understand its their decision but you are only trying to help and you don't want to see your friend hurt by a possible problem with Nutmeg. :) hope this helps a little
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I have just got back from meeting my best friend and we did discuss it. They don't really have Nutmeg's best interests at heart unfortunately and are more worried about Pepper passing under anaesthetic than Nutmeg. They wouldn't be paying for Nutmeg's spay anyway because Nutmeg's old owners want to spay her. There are a few piggies that I've met that I know my friend likes for Pepper. Thank you I will mention the last part.

Claire W said:
You are quite right that spaying is a very invasive procedure and should only be done for medical reasons.

It is also not a good idea for your friend to keep letting Pepper and Nutmeg meet even under supervision. Not only is this very upsetting and distressing for the guinea pigs to start getting friendly and then being seperated again but it only takes seconds for a boar to impregnate a sow.

What they are doing is very risky and Nutmeg could fall pregnant despite their best efforts to seperate if they begin to mate.

Also, even if Pepper and Nutmeg are getting on now, there is no guarantee they will get on once she has been spayed and they are together in the same cage as each time piggies are taken away from each other, the whole bonding process and acceptance starts all over again.

Good luck. You sound like a very caring friend x
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My friend wasn't there when Pepper and Nutmeg had their meetings and it only happened a few times last summer. They are planning for it today between 5-5:30. I did mention to her that they can get pregnant after a few seconds, but she just brushed aside my concerns by saying they will watch them closely.

No matter how many times I try to explain that you shouldn't keep separating them once they've met she just says they get on now.

Jaycey said:
If they're willing to pay for a spay, ask them to pay for the neuter instead. It's way less invasive, and very likely to be cheaper, which is what sways people most of the time
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My friend's family won't be paying for the spay as Nutmeg's old owners have agreed to pay for it. I have suggested that instead of paying for Nutmeg's spay, they pay for Pepper's neuter but they are very reluctant to put Pepper through anaesthetic.
 
Oh I really feel for you, I can't imagine how stressful it is for you not to have your voice heard. I feel sorry for little Nutmeg, if they wanted her that badly they wouldn't want her to have the operation imo.

It's very hard, but you may have to just distance yourself from the situation as they are clearly set on just doing what they want. Some people aren't as animal minded as others.

It may be worth pointing out, however, that if they wanted to get more females or perhaps one day need a new one should Nutmeg pass away then they would have to go through all of this again. Once a boar is neutered the possibilities are endless but not if only one female is spayed.

If money is such an issue then I would have concerns about these meetings, I wonder if they would afford to feed potentially 1-8 baby guinea pigs and any potential vet bills.
 
Hi

I just thought I'd update this.

Unfortunately, I couldn't quite convince them what an awful idea this was. They ended up meeting again and from what I heard Pepper tried to mount Nutmeg. I don't know to what extent but I suspect it was downplayed a lot for my sake. I just hope she isn't pregnant.

Apparently they will be adopting Nutmeg but I'm not sure when and when they plan to spay her. Unfortunately there aren't many good vets in my area although there is an exotic expert in a nearby town.

Could anyone give me any advice on what pregnancy symptoms would be? I would rather inform my best friend sooner than later.

Thank you everyone for the advice :)
 
Just spoken to my friend again and have a few new updates.

They plan on introducing them again tomorrow to make sure they still 'get on' in case it was a fluke. Apparently the pet sitter knows everything necessary about bonding guinea pigs so they don't need to worry. I highly doubt that. I recommended that she read some articles on bonding guinea pigs but she told me it was fine and that she didn't need to know because the pet sitter is trained knows everything.

I also explained that Nutmeg could pregnant even from a few seconds of mating. This was obviously brushed off. I added that they could at least try and meet with a mesh barrier (like a c & c grid) but apparently they are fine together so I explained that it was to stop them mating,

As far as I am aware they haven't decided when Nutmeg will be spayed. They will them adopt her after the spay.

I feel extremely frustrated with this situation because I feel they are damaging a weak bond already and putting Nutmeg at risk of accidental pregnancy. I don't feel like they are truly weighing up the situation and deciding what is in their best interests. I don't really know what to do about the situation.

I'm pretty sure that this will end up being an argument on a large Whatsapp group with all our friends on and they will side with her because they are clueless with guinea pigs (my group friends). This happened when Pepper had 'spikes growing into his tongue' (spurs but the vets weren't knowledgable enough to know this). I kept suggesting that she take him to Simon for dental work, but she didn't want her vets to think badly of her so she had to shell out £600 for a procedure which would be a lot safer and cheaper with Simon. Just to sum up how she takes my advice (me having experience and read all the guides on here to death).
 
HUGS - It is always worst when things like that happen in your family or with close friends. But there is unfortunately only so much you can do. There comes a stage when the more you push, the less they will listen to you. :(
 
I think you have done all you can. If your friend is unwilling to listen and think they know best then all you can do is leave them to it. Forcing it like you say is going to lead to arguments and there is no need for a massive argument between a huge group of friends. Perhaps just let your friend know you aren't happy with what's going on and maybe ask if they can not give you any more information about it in order not to jeopardise your friendship?
 
Thanks Wiebke :).

I have decided to write a reallllllllllllllllly long text message explaining my view points and solutions to each thing. I am not very good with words and people easily talk over me so it is a compromise. I will post what I am sending when I finish writing it. If that doesn't get a response, I will send it to her mum. The thing is, they really do care about Pepper and if I can truly break down everything for them, I think I can sway them to at least bond them properly after the spay and not introduce them again until after.
 
Finally finished writing my text. Here is the draft of it. Personal details like specific rescues and locations have been censored with the word Oreo. Please let me know if there is anything I should add.

Hi Oreo

Firstly, I really value our friendship so I really don't want you to take this personally because I am only writing this in the interest of Pepper and Nutmeg. I also want to clarify that I am happy for you that you want to bond Pepper, but I feel that there are better options for you and for Pepper and Nutmeg's sake. I don't want you to see me as a parasite sucking all the fun and joy out of owning guinea pigs because that is not my intention.

I really am against the idea of repeatedly putting the two of them together and then taking them away from each other, particularly when Nutmeg hasn't been spayed and Pepper hasn't been neutered. It is detrimental to their bond to do this as the guinea pigs need to redetermine their hierarchy each time this happens. Guinea pig hierarchy lies at the centre of everything they do. In addition, it is extremely stressful for them because they are so happy and desperate for companionship and then you rip it all away from them, leaving them depressed. Each time you put them together and then take them away from each other, the chance of their bond being successful long term decreases.

I also believe you are putting Nutmeg at risk of becoming pregnant and there are enough unwanted guinea pigs in the world. Pregnancy brings a lot of financial loss with it because of the extra food, cages and bedding necessary to raise healthy guinea pigs. Even Pepper mounting Nutmeg for a few seconds could result in her becoming pregnant, as ridiculous as that may sound. You would be better off keeping them in adjoining cages where they could talk and act freely without the risk of pregnancy. This would allow them to be able to bond while Nutmeg awaits her spay. It is commonly practiced among the guinea pig community. A C and C cage would allow you to easily do this. 2 by 3 grid cages (77 by 112cm approx) would work. Temporary caging for them could be as little as £20 (base free cages without correx). Then you could upgrade them into something that fits your house (my third home) with the left over C and C grids.

I think that spaying Nutmeg is quite risky because it is such an invasive procedure although I know you are reluctant to put Pepper through anaesthetic again. Neutering is more commonly practiced with guinea pigs and is safer and is less invasive. If you could ask Nutmeg's old owners to pay for Pepper's neuter instead of spaying Nutmeg, it would be a win-win situation. In addition to this, a vet is more likely to have experience with neutering than spaying, because spaying is normally done for medical purposes only. Please remember that all anaesthetic carries a risk.

If you truly have your heart set on spaying Nutmeg, then please at least find the best vet possible, not your normal Medivet vets, after everything that happened with Pepper's expensive dental work. The Oreo Medivet exotic specialist Oreo might be worth enquiring about. Otherwise, I would ask Oreo Rescue or Oreo Oreo Oreo Oreo who they use as they will probably have a very good vet. There is another vet in Oreo Oreo who was recommended on the Guinea Pig Forum. Another thing to factor in is that less experienced vets often end up being more expensive for surgery because you are paying for their time and a less experienced vet will be slower at operations than a more experienced vet.

An anaesthetic free solution would be bonding Nutmeg with an already neutered boar like those at Oreo Oreo Oreo Oreo and bonding Pepper with another boar at Oreo Oreo Oreo Oreo. They truly are excellent at bonding and I'm sure you have seen how happy Oreo and Pemba are together.

I know you don't want to, but I think it is important to read some guides on bonding guinea pigs. There is nothing wrong with asking for advice and it will at least make you aware of what is happening between the two of them. I am more than happy to send you some articles which you can read, that I highly recommend. You can never be too prepared for bonding. Even if the pet sitter does know what she is doing, she won't be there when they are living together at home and still establishing their bond. I don't mind coming over when you decide to bond them and helping you because I have done a little bit of research into bonding.

I really hope you will at least consider some of my points and factor them in because ultimately, this is what I believe will benefit Pepper and Nutmeg most. I don't claim to be an expert, but I have some knowledge on guinea pigs and I really hope you will let me help you.

Lusms Oreo, Pemba, Oreo and Larry-Jasper xx
 
Lady Kelly said:
I think you have done all you can. If your friend is unwilling to listen and think they know best then all you can do is leave them to it. Forcing it like you say is going to lead to arguments and there is no need for a massive argument between a huge group of friends. Perhaps just let your friend know you aren't happy with what's going on and maybe ask if they can not give you any more information about it in order not to jeopardise your friendship?
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I know I can sway her if I push hard enough and break it down for her. It normally works if I want her to do me a favour. I think her mum would see sense if she understood. Her mum loves animals so much and has been known to randomly bring home pets.
 
The big question for me is are you willing to no longer be friends? You might have a good idea how this will go down but ultimately that would be the worst case scenario. If you feel that strongly that you would be happy with that outcome then do whatever you feel would work best
 
Update

So I ended up breaking down the paragraphs and sending them to my friend while we discussed all options over the phone. They have decided they don't want to put either guinea pig through unnecessary operations. They will hopefully be bonding Pepper at a local rescue who often has lots of single boars. I am hoping they will bring Nutmeg with to the rescue and bond her with an already neutered boar and either keep her and a husboar or rehome her with a husboar. Thankfully, my best friend isn't angry at me at all.
 
What a great update. Well done for keeping your strongly held views polite and respectful. Not always easy and not something I have always achieved!
 
I hope there take your advice, but if they decide to go ahead with a spay, that they must put a grid down the centre till she has recovered & stitches are dissolved. If she has a boar trying to moult her before 2 weeks she could have a serious bleed.
Well done for caring so much.
 
Well done, that really was a fantastic outcome and I am so glad they were willing to listen so carefully to you.
 
flowerfairy said:
What a great update. Well done for keeping your strongly held views polite and respectful. Not always easy and not something I have always achieved!
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Thanks FF! :)

Tiamolly123 said:
I hope there take your advice, but if they decide to go ahead with a spay, that they must put a grid down the centre till she has recovered & stitches are dissolved. If she has a boar trying to moult her before 2 weeks she could have a serious bleed.
Well done for caring so much.
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Thank you! I will pass that along if they decide to spay :).

Lady Kelly said:
Well done, that really was a fantastic outcome and I am so glad they were willing to listen so carefully to you.
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Thanks :)
 
I thought I'd give you guys a few updates on this thread and the situation.

It now looks like they won't be bonding Pepper at all - they haven't arranged anything with the rescue as far as I know. It seems they've changed their minds again because Pepper to quote them "is fine on his own". I did use the example of Oreo, who I thought was fine on his own, until I saw how much happier and confident he is with Pemba. She also said she can't get another guinea pig because the vet bills are too expensive. I'm sorry but a pet is a privelage not a right so you need to care for one properly and for guinea pigs, that means company.

I don't know what happened to Nutmeg because I think they lost contact with Nutmeg's owners after they suggested bonding her at a rescue. It's a shame that she'll probably end up living on her own for her whole life.

They are now debating on whether or not to 'rescue' a bunny. They have a relatively small hutch outside which is not nearly big enough for a rabbit. They are unlikely to want to get two so that will be lonely as well. How can she not afford two piggies but she can afford one rabbit and one piggie?

I'm really sick of her treating her pets this way :(. Just to add, she also wants to be a vet when she's older .
 
I hate to sound mean but I think she has lost interest in her guinea pig. The excuse of vets bills being too expensive is all well and good but not when you talk about taking on other animals in the next breath! Perhaps you could put her off the bunny idea by mentioning that they will be more expensive at the vet (on account of annual vaccinations) so at least if there is going to be lonely animals it's just the one and not a rabbit as well.
 
Lady Kelly said:
I hate to sound mean but I think she has lost interest in her guinea pig. The excuse of vets bills being too expensive is all well and good but not when you talk about taking on other animals in the next breath! Perhaps you could put her off the bunny idea by mentioning that they will be more expensive at the vet (on account of annual vaccinations) so at least if there is going to be lonely animals it's just the one and not a rabbit as well.
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To be honest, I agree she doesn't seem nearly as interested in Pepper as I am in my boars. She once asked me why she shouldn't feed out-of-date pellets!

Thanks :) for the ideas, I will mention it next time she brings it up.
 
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