COVID-19 BBC article about anti-vaxxers, ethnic minorities, and attitudes towards a vaccine

Sure, but while "vaccines = autism" is bad enough, this is a whole other level of dangerous. And Wakefield's idiocy didn't (at the time) have the power of the internet behind it. This is new, and it's not just about autism any more.

And that doesn't scratch the surface behind the beliefs in the BAME community. It comes from somewhere, which is why saying everything is safe etc doesn't work. Of course we'd say everything is safe while we're trying to kill them off.
 
It's ridiculous in the UK. I can understand the scepticism in countries like the US where pharmaceuticals are big business with advertising etc but in the UK everyone knows the NHS is massively underfunded. I always take the stance that if the NHS are offering me or my daughter a vaccination for free it's because the benefits far outweigh the risks. Yes there will always be some risk as each person is different and can have different side effects though serious side effects are usually incredibly rare. I had the flu jab last winter as I was pregnant, I also had whooping cough jab. Both are recommended by the NHS and the worst side effect I had was a sore arm for a couple of days from the whooping cough (couldn't lie on that side that night)
 
Lorcan said:
Sure, but while "vaccines = autism" is bad enough, this is a whole other level of dangerous. And Wakefield's idiocy didn't (at the time) have the power of the internet behind it. This is new, and it's not just about autism any more.

And that doesn't scratch the surface behind the beliefs in the BAME community. It comes from somewhere, which is why saying everything is safe etc doesn't work. Of course we'd say everything is safe while we're trying to kill them off.
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I also think the Black Lives Matter movement highlights why some communities are less likely to trust in the relevant medical authorities when you hear the stories about how authorities have treated them previously. I have never been randomly stopped and searched because of the colour of my skin. I've not been stopped and asked what I'm doing here when I'm just walking down the street.

I have however experienced everyday sexism and yes there is then an assumption when things happen another time that it's being done or said because of my gender. Whilst this is no way a comparison it does start to highlight the bigger issues of why things aren't so simple
 
Sadly i feel as though this has been going on for a long time now and has been bubbling away under the surface ready to erupt. my sister was hospitalised with measles before she was old enough to have the MMR because of a local outbreak fulled by people refusing the vaccine (this was 10 years ago) and things have only gotten worse since. with the internet we have the issue of if you go looking for something that proves your point be it a case study, dodgy research or a so called expert backing you up you will be able to find it which leaves people unable to know who to trust and what to believe. Hence conspiracy theorist groups and religious extremists can push very damaging beliefs just by sounding convincing and coming up with ridiculous reasons why everyone else is wrong. The fact that this is now also causing a wedge between BAME groups and people trying to help them is extremely worrying especially at a time that we all need to stand together.
 
A lot of it comes down to racism, sexism etc that certain people seem to have...normalised? Like I don't avoid seeing my doctor about certain things just for the hell of it - I do it because experience tells me what the reactions and answers will be. There's a bit from the article I want to quote here because it's the most important bit (to me):

Accident and Emergency ward sister Emma Clinton describes an Asian man in his early 60s who was afraid to come into hospital, and was already dying by the time his family called an ambulance. "He died in the department within about an hour. And then of course the family were absolutely distraught. The son was saying, 'What lethal injection did you give him? How has he died? Have you killed him?'" As A&E consultant David Greenhorn says, once that question has been asked, it's impossible to turn the situation around. "If they must mistrust you enough to ask you that question directly, then the trust has already gone and you don't have the time to spend to develop it. You could never rebuild things, there's no way of building that bridge."
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I can't imagine being so terrified of dying that I'd avoid a hospital. Sure there's things that have been close over the years, but that? That's real fear, real terror. I have very little sympathy for anti-vaxxers crying foul when people are dying because they think the government are trying to kill them off, one by one. As for a vaccine itself, if I can have it I will. I'm not known for having reactions to vaccines or injections in general - heck they warned me about the flu jab and I was like, "...really?" Not even a sore arm to show for it. Because with a bit of luck, a vaccine doesn't just protect me - by protecting me, it hopefully protects the ones around me too.
 
Lorcan said:
A lot of it comes down to racism, sexism etc that certain people seem to have...normalised? Like I don't avoid seeing my doctor about certain things just for the hell of it - I do it because experience tells me what the reactions and answers will be. There's a bit from the article I want to quote here because it's the most important bit (to me):



I can't imagine being so terrified of dying that I'd avoid a hospital. Sure there's things that have been close over the years, but that? That's real fear, real terror. I have very little sympathy for anti-vaxxers crying foul when people are dying because they think the government are trying to kill them off, one by one. As for a vaccine itself, if I can have it I will. I'm not known for having reactions to vaccines or injections in general - heck they warned me about the flu jab and I was like, "...really?" Not even a sore arm to show for it. Because with a bit of luck, a vaccine doesn't just protect me - by protecting me, it hopefully protects the ones around me too.
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I never understood the big fuss about the flu jab as it's not a live vaccine. I think most people come down with a cold as a coincidence. Also it takes 7 days for symptoms of a cold to show so when it happens the day after being vaccinated it's definitely not down to the vaccine.

@furryfriends (TEAS) that's great that you have volunteered. I considered it and to be honest I wouldn't have hesitated to volunteer if it weren't for having a young baby. With Jessica being 4 months old and exclusively breastfed I can't take risks when it's unknown about what will pass over and what the side effects could be. So I am grateful there are people like you that are willing to volunteer to help build a vaccine to protect us all
 
Lady Kelly said:
I never understood the big fuss about the flu jab as it's not a live vaccine. I think most people come down with a cold as a coincidence. Also it takes 7 days for symptoms of a cold to show so when it happens the day after being vaccinated it's definitely not down to the vaccine.
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A couple of years back I shared an office with 4 people. 3 of us (A,B and C) had the vaccine on the same day . 1 refused (X) as it “always makes me ill”. Following day, B,C and X all were really poorly with flu like symptoms. I was fine. So clearly nothing todo with the vaccine but X would have been right on it as a cause if she had had it! There was a bug going round the office, they did 4 shifts a week together, I was there once a week so evidently missed it!
 
Lady Kelly said:
I never understood the big fuss about the flu jab as it's not a live vaccine. I think most people come down with a cold as a coincidence. Also it takes 7 days for symptoms of a cold to show so when it happens the day after being vaccinated it's definitely not down to the vaccine.

@furryfriends (TEAS) that's great that you have volunteered. I considered it and to be honest I wouldn't have hesitated to volunteer if it weren't for having a young baby. With Jessica being 4 months old and exclusively breastfed I can't take risks when it's unknown about what will pass over and what the side effects could be. So I am grateful there are people like you that are willing to volunteer to help build a vaccine to protect us all
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Too right, you should absolutely not take the risk! I'm fit and well and if I can help, I will be happy to. One of the questions was about how much contact you have with lots of different people each day. I don't, as I spend most of my time in the company of animals, so it may be that I won't be used, but was happy to volunteer xx
 
I'm really heartened at all the considered responses here.
For perspective, I'm probably somewhere on the spectrum, I did have MMR, but delayed, my cousin didn't, my aunt believed the reporting at the time and decided not to, he developed measles on a trip to Germany when he was around 13, he was very ill but recovered. At 20 he developed testicular cancer and recovered with the loss of the offending item, when he was 25 he got it in the other, he ended up in the Lancet - and the prevailing theory was that it was a complication due to the measles. There's been a concerted attack on science for a long time now, and I urge that those of us that still have the capacity to understand basic logic fight to defend it, against the graduates of YouTube and Facebook College, Moron University.
 
One of the things about anti-vaxxers that really irritates me is when they talk about a family member who had a very severe reaction. Now that's fair enough, but crying that it makes vaccines dangerous and they need to be pulled from the market? Oh sod off. Then they'll tell you they're in support groups of people and relatives who've had the same reaction, as if a slightly bigger percentage of people makes up for the fact that's it's an absolutely miniscule percentage of people overall who suffer from reactions like those.

Some of it is fear, some of it is blanket pigheadedness. My ma had to fight for me to get the vaccines I was meant to get in school because one of my medications always made them iffy about it. My endocrinologist at the time said to stop putting it on the list of regular medications, it wouldn't do any harm anyway lol.
 
My parents in law are anti-vaxxers, with zero excuse as both are well educated middle class white people (too damned white for anybody's liking in my father-in-law's case, he's the sort of bloke that makes me constantly want to apologise to people of colour everywhere and assure them his casual racism should be extinct) and their excuse is that "there's no need for healthy people to be vaccinated" :( selfish idiots, what about the people who aren't so lucky with their health that they need protecting by herd immunity?
Great thing you are doing there @furryfriends (TEAS) if we knew of any vaccine trials in Liverpool I'm sure we'd sign up straight away, especially piggy daddy as like his annoying parents say he is in perfect health himself but works with vulnerable elderly people in the community and who should be protected!
 
I can guarantee most people like that don't believe in herd immunity @PigglePuggle, or at the very least don't have a clue what it even is. The people pushing an anti-vax stance are the sort of people that prey on the ignorant and uninformed. I think someone like The Food Babe (I'm not linking to her stuff, it's not worth the free publicity) is a great example of this. She got ill, decided to treat herself by reading up on nutrition and food info and now peddles herself as a food guru trying to rid the world of "bad food", "toxic chemicals" and...you get the drift. Post anything critical of what she writes on Facebook or on her blog and the comment is deleted and you're blocked, no questions asked. She has herself an army of followers who claim critics are pushing a big pharma agenda, or a big government agenda, or a big "whatever they're upset with at the time" agenda.

It's dangerous, and her followers make it even more so. But she's exactly the type of person, with exactly the type of following, that people pushing an anti-vax agenda want. She also gets money for peddling products containing ingredients she calls "dangerous".
 
These people are idiots! I’ve seen a child with whooping cough and it is the most horrible thing to see a child coughing until they are sick, so much so they can’t breath and it’s relentless for months. That child developed serious heart problems because she was not vaccinated. I would always recommend anyone have the full vaccination program, it’s money well spent by the government and you are not only protecting yourself, your children but the population at large.
People make me laugh when they say a vaccine might make them ill, look at the elephant in the room! All these terrible killer diseases which were eradicated 30 years ago now back in circulation. Child benefit should be withdrawn unless your kids are vaccinated, this is what the government does in Australia and it should happen here too!
 
Lorcan said:
I can guarantee most people like that don't believe in herd immunity @PigglePuggle, or at the very least don't have a clue what it even is. The people pushing an anti-vax stance are the sort of people that prey on the ignorant and uninformed. I think someone like The Food Babe (I'm not linking to her stuff, it's not worth the free publicity) is a great example of this. She got ill, decided to treat herself by reading up on nutrition and food info and now peddles herself as a food guru trying to rid the world of "bad food", "toxic chemicals" and...you get the drift. Post anything critical of what she writes on Facebook or on her blog and the comment is deleted and you're blocked, no questions asked. She has herself an army of followers who claim critics are pushing a big pharma agenda, or a big government agenda, or a big "whatever they're upset with at the time" agenda.

It's dangerous, and her followers make it even more so. But she's exactly the type of person, with exactly the type of following, that people pushing an anti-vax agenda want. She also gets money for peddling products containing ingredients she calls "dangerous".
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Lol yes thats my in laws all over! Some of their ridiculous health claims they dug up from the dregs of the worst informed corners of the internet...
"Underarm deodorants cause cancer"
"Ripe bananas protect against cancer"
"Gluten and dairy cause arthritis"
"We follow a diet based on our blood groups, people with blood group A should avoid oranges"
The degree of misinformation touted then followed by people who have had every educational and economic opportunity to know better is baffling...!
 
PigglePuggle said:
Lol yes thats my in laws all over! Some of their ridiculous health claims they dug up from the dregs of the worst informed corners of the internet...
"Underarm deodorants cause cancer"
"Ripe bananas protect against cancer"
"Gluten and dairy cause arthritis"
"We follow a diet based on our blood groups, people with blood group A should avoid oranges"
The degree of misinformation touted then followed by people who have had every educational and economic opportunity to know better is baffling...!
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I mean I want to laugh but...
 
Me and my siblings had measles when we were around 4 and 5 years old. Me and my sister had to be confined in the hospital for a couple of weeks. I remember we had to stay in the hospital before Christmas and was out on the new year. My sister had it worse. During those times in the Philippines, you get the vaccine if you pay for it. But I remember we used to get free vaccines (not sure for what, must be for polio, mmr, etc.) whenever doctors go to towns/cities for those people who can't afford. Thankfully, my family can afford in the Philippines and my nephews are all up to date with their jabs as well. My brother and sister-in-law being nurses (not practising though) helps with them giving proper info in terms of medical stuff.

Also, when everyone in our house had chickenpox, my siblings, aunt and uncle, and older cousins who were boarding in our house, I was the only one who never got it. Not really sure why. So when I migrated here, I asked my GP if I needed to get a vaccine for chickenpox, and she said no.

Since migrating to UK, I always pay for a flu jab and if I can get some needed vaccines for such and such, I would want to get it. I'm not classed as vulnerable and considered healthy so I don't mind paying for vaccines. I want to do it coz hubby being classed as disabled and vulnerable, that means I will be protecting him as well by not getting sick.
 
I got my flu vaccine for free this time around and I'm still not sure why, but I was hardly going to complain.
 
Falken said:
I'm really heartened at all the considered responses here.
For perspective, I'm probably somewhere on the spectrum, I did have MMR, but delayed, my cousin didn't, my aunt believed the reporting at the time and decided not to, he developed measles on a trip to Germany when he was around 13, he was very ill but recovered. At 20 he developed testicular cancer and recovered with the loss of the offending item, when he was 25 he got it in the other, he ended up in the Lancet - and the prevailing theory was that it was a complication due to the measles. There's been a concerted attack on science for a long time now, and I urge that those of us that still have the capacity to understand basic logic fight to defend it, against the graduates of YouTube and Facebook College, Moron University.
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You forgot flat earthers! :D
 
I think I will pay for the flu vaccine this year. Got it free last year on account of being pregnant and as I am definitely not doing that again any time soon I won't qualify this year
 
Lady Kelly said:
I think I will pay for the flu vaccine this year. Got it free last year on account of being pregnant and as I am definitely not doing that again any time soon I won't qualify this year
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It’s worth every penny! Flu is ghastly 🤧
 
Lady Kelly said:
I think I will pay for the flu vaccine this year. Got it free last year on account of being pregnant and as I am definitely not doing that again any time soon I won't qualify this year
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It's wise, flu takes so many lives a year, every GP surgery gets a glut of doses for vulnerable groups, but there's still such stubbornness to take it, the majority are usually thrown away.
 
:) Another thing they tend to do is state that these three are normal childhood illnesses that just work themselves out, but they're all serious, they all have serious consequences - mumps and measles often lead to sepsis and brain damage. Chickenpox is usually unpleasant, but relatively mild in children - but not adults. Then there are the older diseases that most of us will have never had to deal with, TB, which kills in a similar way to COVID, it's a horrible disease that was thought to be eradicated here, and if you read enough history, most of your favorite historical characters will have died of 'consumption'. My grandmother, as a young adult back in the 50s worked at an 'isolation hospital' - which was a Victorian invention, built in the middle of nowhere, originally for TB cases, the idea was that open verandas, lots of airing and plenty of light would help improve the situation, in her day the majority of patients were children, with things like scarlet fever and polio (Lord Nuffield hadn't come up with the cheap ones at that time, so it was usually death or lifelong disability), often they didn't make it, and the only company they had were the other children and the nurses - they tried to remove them at night so as not to disturb the other children. Then there's tetanus, which we are all vaccinated against, it leads to a horrible death through total muscle paralysis, imagine being unable to breath or swallow or talk or blink.

All of these things have ceased to be a common concern as we've managed to vaccinate against them over the years (we wouldn't have made the effort if they weren't major issues).
 
I was horrified when I heard they had stopped the TB vaccination, I know it had gone from this country but with global travel it was not going to be long before it came back. I'm old enough to have known people who had lost loved ones to it, most families lost someone. The isolation hospital was still there (derelict) when I was a child.
My son had measles from the vaccine (old style), the Dr told me to imagine how ill he would have been if he'd had full blown measles. That was bad enough I couldn't bear to think of the consequences if he'd not been vaccinated.
I had mild whooping cough in my 20s despite being vaccinated as a child, I wouldn't want a bad dose of that.
I'm old enough to have seen the results of polio, adults who were disabled were given little blue cars. One of my teachers was disabled due to polio.
The girl who would have been my aunt, my dads sister died aged 15 from scarlet fever.
We had chicken pox party's when I was a child, no vaccine then. If one child got it all their friends were invited round to play in the hope they would get it too, it was thought to be better to get immunity while young. I've still got the scars.
I won't bore you with any more I could write a book!
If I'm offered the flu vaccine I will take it, although I'm not sure how our surgery will deliver, they are still hiding behind their desks and you can't vaccinate down the phone, not yet anyway!
 
Anyone migrating to the UK needs to submit a TB test certificate stating you don't have TB or had done successful treatment of TB, if you are coming from outside the EU and America (I think also not from Australia and New Zealand, there is a list in the gov website). This is one requirement needed to be submitted when applying for a visa (except visit visa).
 
anyar.dris said:
Anyone migrating to the UK needs to submit a TB test certificate stating you don't have TB or had done successful treatment of TB, if you are coming from outside the EU and America (I think also not from Australia and New Zealand, there is a list in the gov website). This is one requirement needed to be submitted when applying for a visa (except visit visa).
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With TB it's probably re-entered from within the east - it's been an issue for a few years now, and it's now anti-biotic resistant (which is another story entirely, people seriously need to learn how they actually work), it's been spotted in our substance using community, but far from blaming them - as we did with other disenfranchised people at the start of HIV/AIDS, we should treat them as the canary in the coal mine, and take action while we still have the luxury of time.
 
The TB vaccine programme has changed but is still there to an extent. In some areas all newborns are given a bcg before going home from hospital. In other areas the baby is vaccinated depending on risk, so if the family come from, intend to travel to, or have visitors from, a country that has a high incidence of tb. A high incidence being defined as more than 40 cases per 10000 head of population.
 
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