Belgian guinea pig shelter conduct

[Theolos]

Hi everyone,

For several months I have been reading useful guides from this forum, but now I am looking for advice on my own situation.

We have owned two guinea pigs (two boars from the same litter) since 2023. We got them from a facebook acquaintance of my wife whose guinea pig had a litter and they were giving away the kids. We have kept them in a 60x160cm cage with pressed sawdust / straw bedding, fed them with hay, pellets and fresh vegetables and they lived, peed and pooped relatively peacefully. Unfortunately, in March one of them passed away. Since then the other boar was living alone, and we had growing concerns over his wellbeing in the long term. We were considering either giving the remaining boar away into a shelter, or getting him another companion.
Last month we finally bit the bullet and decided to adopt another boar from a shelter recommended by our local vet to keep our piggie company (at this point he is three years old).
When preparing for the newcomer we invested in a 2x4 C&C cage, switched to fleece liners and put in additional pee pads / tunnels.
On November 12th we reached out to the shelter manager, who told us that we should bring our piggie to their shelter for a "holiday". On the date when we were supposed to ship our piggie to the shelter the lady says she has a flu, but we can bring the pig to her daughter in law, instead. We do that, the daughter-in-law tells us that her own experience is mostly with rabbits, but she keeps in close contact with her MIL and everything will be fine. Meanwhile after researching the shelter's website we provide the shelter manager a short list of male piggies that we would like to adopt (4 names).
After two days the shelter sends us a photo of our pig cuddling with the first boar from the list we gave (1,5 years old according to the website). In the meanwhile I clean the cage and wash the fleeces with regular laundry detergent (the hideys I dont clean). On Nov 19th and two more days later we pick them up to bring them home.
At this moment things start going south. On our way home the pigs already start to get noisy. Immediately after we release them at home they become loud and aggressive and they have their first fight. I separate the cage with a wall made from the spare C&C cage sections. We discuss the next steps with the shelter manager and agree that I need to wash the fleeces one more time, this time without detergent but with vinegar. I also remove all the old hideys and go through the waterproof cage liner. I find some that I missed on the last cleaning session and I clean it up.
On the next day after work I get a brand new fleece, put it in a bathtub and release the piggies in the tub for a neutral territory re-bonding. After 4 minutes of chatter they calm down a little and things are quiet, but there is no evident dominant behaviour from anyone. The new piggies tries following the old one, but the old one does not allow himself to be mounted.
We hoped things are finally working out, but on the next evening my family said they fought again and there was blood involved. I come home to separate and inspect them. I'm attaching their mugshots for illustration purposes.
What follows is two nerve-wrecking weeks observing dominant behaviour from either of the two boars, with periodic chattering, rumbling, nose-to-nose staredowns, running away and fighting. In the meanwhile we learn from the stepdaughter that the shelter manager (whom we have never seen personally) suffers from clinical depression, and that the new piggie was handed over to the shelter by the police/animal welfare after the latter seized them from an undisclosed address along with other 20 piggies and 10 bunnies.
In the meanwhile we noticed that our older boar started losing weight and sitting staring in a corner of the cage, which we interpreted as a sign of depression.
Yesterday was the last straw. After another unprovoked attack from behind by the younger boar I put back the separation wall and we are now making arrangements with a vet for our boar and the return of the younger boar back to the shelter.

Now that you're all up to speed, do you mind answering the following questions?

- Is it normal for the shelter to stop matching our piggie after the initial "success" with the first option?
- could the bonding fail due to lack of space? The cage is a standard 2x4 C&C, we are already plannning to expand it to 2x5.
- What else did we do wrong as owners?
- After returning the younger piggie to the shelter I'm planning to ask the shelter for another pairing session, but this time to try several other boars, to find a best match. Is this reasonable, or should we find another shelter altogether? Should we continue trusting this shelter?
I'm attaching several photos and adding several links below for videos from the past two weeks for you to have a look at.
Video 1 (initial fight): - YouTube
Video 2 (28/11): - YouTube
Thanks in advance for any advice you can give,

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry to hear this.

Yes it is normal to not try with any other boars if the first match is successful: there is absolutely no point in allowing two piggies to meet successfully (even a successful bonding is stressful), just to split them up and try another boar.
If he didn’t get on with the second boar, you could then have ruined the bonding with the first boar by separating them and they may the refuse to go back together after the second boar failed - hence you’re two piggies down for no real reason.

Your cage can be a little on the small side for a boar pair but not enough to be concerned that the cage caused this - it really didn’t! A 2x5 is recommended size for two boars.
While lack of space can cause issues, your cage is not too small enough to have caused this. This is a character incompatibility failure, not a space related failure ( space is never the first reason a bond fails anyway, it’s always character clash which causes a fail).
The full process of forming a bond takes two weeks and even if acceptance initially happens, a bond can still fail during the first two weeks if they fail to reach agreement in the fine details of their relationship. This is what I suspect has happened here.

Also, changing environment causes them to have to reestablish the bond all over again. This is entirely normal but in an unstable pair, it can bring about the end of the bond.

In terms of other issues:
- bringing home very newly bonded piggies (those who are only a few hours or days into their relationship) should not travel together. They should ideally go into their own carrier so as to not risk stress in piggies who hardly know each other being confined in a very small space. When you get them home you then need to put them in neutral territory without hides and effectively rebond them for another day before moving them to their permanent cage.
- the other issue i see is that once the first fight occurred, trying again should not have been on the cards. We would not recommend ever putting them together again after one fight had happened. They definitely should have been permanently separated after the second fight regret than leaving them together for two weeks.

Without knowing more about the process they used to bond them, it would be very hard for us to advise you whether you should or shouldn’t use them again.

 

[Truffolo]

You could keep them side by side in separate rooms, giving them 2x4' each. Unlike rabbits, guinea pigs don't forgive and once males have fought as yours have, that is the end of the their bond. Many of us with failed bonds keep out male piggies side by side and they live peacefully and seem happy enough. They need to be able to see, hear and smell each other through the divider and that seems to be enough to keep them content. If you like your new piggy, there is no reason not to keep him if you have space. As he is young, you could neuter him and later in life get a female piggy to live with him.

 

[Theolos]

You could keep them side by side in separate rooms, giving them 2x4' each. Unlike rabbits, guinea pigs don't forgive and once males have fought as yours have, that is the end of the their bond. Many of us with failed bonds keep out male piggies side by side and they live peacefully and seem happy enough. They need to be able to see, hear and smell each other through the divider and that seems to be enough to keep them content. If you like your new piggy, there is no reason not to keep him if you have space. As he is young, you could neuter him and later in life get a female piggy to live with him.

Hi there, thanks for your answer! So the level of interaction they have through the divider is enough for them to not feel lonely anymore? In that case this is indeed something to consider, but are you sure you mean 2x4' each, not 2x2' each? If it's not a typo then i'm afraid it would be quite challenging for us to double their living space...

 

[Piggies&buns]

Hi there, thanks for your answer! So the level of interaction they have through the divider is enough for them to not feel lonely anymore? In that case this is indeed something to consider, but are you sure you mean 2x4' each, not 2x2' each? If it's not a typo then i'm afraid it would be quite challenging for us to double their living space...

Rabbits don’t tend to forgive a fight either but rabbit bonding can be done differently to piggy bonding. As I said, we would need to know more about what they did during the bonding - for example did she use scent swapping? Some rescues with less knowledge will do this but we find that scent swapping can be one of the worst things to do and usually sets them off on a very bad footing due to feeling invaded.

Yes living side by side does provide enough interaction. I have a failed pair of boars who live happily side by side.

No it isn’t a typo - each piggy needs at least a 2x3 c&c cage to themselves (or a 2 foot by 4 foot cage), a 2x4 c&c (2 foot by 5 foot) being preferable. A 2x2 c&c would be woefully under minimum welfare requirements.

 

[Theolos]

I’m sorry to hear this.

Yes it is normal to not try with any other boars if the first match is successful: there is absolutely no point in allowing two piggies to meet successfully (even a successful bonding is stressful), just to split them up and try another boar.
If he didn’t get on with the second boar, you could then have ruined the bonding with the first boar by separating them and they may the refuse to go back together after the second boar failed - hence you’re two piggies down for no real reason.

Your cage can be a little on the small side for a boar pair but not enough to be concerned that the cage caused this - it really didn’t! A 2x5 is recommended size for two boars.
While lack of space can cause issues, your cage is not too small enough to have caused this. This is a character incompatibility failure, not a space related failure ( space is never the first reason a bond fails anyway, it’s always character clash which causes a fail).
The full process of forming a bond takes two weeks and even if acceptance initially happens, a bond can still fail during the first two weeks if they fail to reach agreement in the fine details of their relationship. This is what I suspect has happened here.

Also, changing environment causes them to have to reestablish the bond all over again. This is entirely normal but in an unstable pair, it can bring about the end of the bond.

In terms of other issues:
- bringing home very newly bonded piggies (those who are only a few hours or days into their relationship) should not travel together. They should ideally go into their own carrier so as to not risk stress in piggies who hardly know each other being confined in a very small space. When you get them home you then need to put them in neutral territory without hides and effectively rebond them for another day before moving them to their permanent cage.
- the other issue i see is that once the first fight occurred, trying again should not have been on the cards. We would not recommend ever putting them together again after one fight had happened. They definitely should have been permanently separated after the second fight regret than leaving them together for two weeks.

Without knowing more about the process they used to bond them, it would be very hard for us to advise you whether you should or shouldn’t use them again.

Thanks for writing, I'm somewhat reassured it wasnt the living space that caused this. We would have also kept them separate after the first fight, but we were consulting with the shelter manager throughout the entire ordeal and she didnt seem to think that it was game over after the initial fight. This is another flag for me that they arent very good as a shelter...

Is it possible that it was the leftover scent of our original piggie that caused the fallout after the trip home? I assumed the deep-cleaned cage would already qualify as neutral territory, but it seems it wasnt clean enough, which may have caused the intial fight leading ultimately to the failure of the bond. If we do try pairing our pig with another boar we will definitely follow your advice on the separate carriers. Wouldnt moving the piggies from the neutral rebonding territory trigger a new rebonding event on its own?

 

[Piggies&buns]

If your piggy instigated the fight then it can be because he saw it as his own territory and felt the new piggy was invading.
It may have nothing to do with that either though - they may simply not have liked each other enough to be able to make it work.

Wouldnt moving the piggies from the neutral rebonding territory trigger a new rebonding event on its own?

So yes it does but not quite so much. It’s why they have to be in neutral territory for such a long time - all day, overnight even before being moved from neutral to the cage. A move from neutral to the cage too soon can be disruptive to their process

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated Bonding Dynamics and Behaviours

 

[Truffolo]

The C&C cage grids are 35cm, so a 3x2 grid C&C cage is 105cm x 70cm. One more grid each. I have my cages on a pair of Ikea tables and then I can use the space under the cages for bits and pieces or just vacuum up bits of hay that have fallen out the cages.

 

[Theolos]

Just a quick update on the situation:
- On Tuesday I was at the vet and expressed my concerns about depression, weight loss, disinterest in hay and associated diarea from our 3-year old. She prescribed Emeprid to prevent gastric stasis for four days but said beyond the weight loss he is healthy.
- Yesterday we returned the new boar back to the shelter.

After realizing he was again alone in his cage, our 3-year-old perked up, became much more active and vocal than before. After two days on medication his stool is back to normal and he is back to eating hay that he loves (seems that he's too spoiled for Timothy hay). We will wait for a full weight recovery before we try pairing him with another boar again. It's a huge releaf to see him back in a good mood. When we are ready to try another bond - we will arrange for two separate carriers and they will spend the first night in a bathtub without hideys, as per your suggestion.

P.S. The shelter workers said that they dont do anything gimmicky e.g. scent swapping. What they do is they put two pigs into a pet run with hay and observe them for 30 minutes. If the pigs dont reject each other - they stimulate them further by adding food and hideys to the run.

Thank you all for your advice. I will post an update once we begin another bonding campaign.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Just a quick update on the situation:
- On Tuesday I was at the vet and expressed my concerns about depression, weight loss, disinterest in hay and associated diarea from our 3-year old. She prescribed Emeprid to prevent gastric stasis for four days but said beyond the weight loss he is healthy.
- Yesterday we returned the new boar back to the shelter.

After realizing he was again alone in his cage, our 3-year-old perked up, became much more active and vocal than before. After two days on medication his stool is back to normal and he is back to eating hay that he loves (seems that he's too spoiled for Timothy hay). We will wait for a full weight recovery before we try pairing him with another boar again. It's a huge releaf to see him back in a good mood. When we are ready to try another bond - we will arrange for two separate carriers and they will spend the first night in a bathtub without hideys, as per your suggestion.

P.S. The shelter workers said that they dont do anything gimmicky e.g. scent swapping. What they do is they put two pigs into a pet run with hay and observe them for 30 minutes. If the pigs dont reject each other - they stimulate them further by adding food and hideys to the run.

Thank you all for your advice. I will post an update once we begin another bonding campaign.

It’s a shame they add hides so soon. 30 minutes is in no way long enough for them to have access to hides - at 30 minutes they are only just at the end of the acceptance phase which is the first stage is bonding. You don’t want the to have access to hides until the third stage of bonding and that is when they are in their permanent cage. Adding Hides creates territories which you do not want in a neutral pen.
I wonder if you can ask them not to add the hides.

 

[Roselina]

30 minutes is in no way long enough to be adding hides. After 30 minutes, acceptance has only just happened.
Hides create territories which you do not want in a neutral pen - it’s a good way to cause them to fight.
We don’t recommend hides are added until they are in their permanent cage together - that can be at least overnight.

@Piggies&buns would a baby piggy be worth considering ?

 

[Truffolo]

Piggies are often very nervous animals especially with strangers and may be inhibited so a longer period in no pig's land is usually needed to test acceptance

 

[Piggies&buns]

Yes a baby would be worth considering

 

[Roselina]

Just a quick update on the situation:
- On Tuesday I was at the vet and expressed my concerns about depression, weight loss, disinterest in hay and associated diarea from our 3-year old. She prescribed Emeprid to prevent gastric stasis for four days but said beyond the weight loss he is healthy.
- Yesterday we returned the new boar back to the shelter.

After realizing he was again alone in his cage, our 3-year-old perked up, became much more active and vocal than before. After two days on medication his stool is back to normal and he is back to eating hay that he loves (seems that he's too spoiled for Timothy hay). We will wait for a full weight recovery before we try pairing him with another boar again. It's a huge releaf to see him back in a good mood. When we are ready to try another bond - we will arrange for two separate carriers and they will spend the first night in a bathtub without hideys, as per your suggestion.

P.S. The shelter workers said that they dont do anything gimmicky e.g. scent swapping. What they do is they put two pigs into a pet run with hay and observe them for 30 minutes. If the pigs dont reject each other - they stimulate them further by adding food and hideys to the run.

Thank you all for your advice. I will post an update once we begin another bonding campaign.

@Piggies&buns has said it could be worth considering a baby ? A baby is more likely to adapt to your piggy and will learn social skills , behaviour and companionship from your piggy
Might be worth thinking about

 

[Theolos]

It’s a shame they add hides so soon. 30 minutes is in no way long enough for them to have access to hides - at 30 minutes they are only just at the end of the acceptance phase which is the first stage is bonding. You don’t want the to have access to hides until the third stage of bonding and that is when they are in their permanent cage. Adding Hides creates territories which you do not want in a neutral pen.
I wonder if you can ask them not to add the hides.

I think they said they add food after 30 minutes, not sure if they add hideys at the same time, or not. I will definitely check with them once we are ready to try another pairing.

 

[Theolos]

@Piggies&buns has said it could be worth considering a baby ? A baby is more likely to adapt to your piggy and will learn social skills , behaviour and companionship from your piggy
Might be worth thinking about

I will check with the shelter, I haven't seen a baby piggy as an option. How young are we talking about? Would we need to syringe-feed them? Also, wont we face the risk of the bond failing when they reach their teenage hormonal phase?

 

[Piggies&buns]

I will check with the shelter, I haven't seen a baby piggy as an option. How young are we talking about? Would we need to syringe-feed them? Also, wont we face the risk of the bond failing when they reach their teenage hormonal phase?

A baby meaning any piggy who is over weaning age - 3 weeks old or more.
Babies often work and are accepted because they cant challenge for dominance.

Hormones in a teenager may cause a bit of a stir but it won’t harm a compatible, successful bond in two piggies who want to be together.

No you don’t need to syringe feed. Syringe feeding is just for when they are ill and losing weight due to not eating enough.

 

[Theolos]

Is there a risk that our 3 year old will become aggressive towards it?

 

[Truffolo]

Hopefully not Things may change once the teenage hormones start and there is the potential for the new piggy to challenge the system. There may need to be some dominance issues settled but hopefully these can be settled without actually fighting. There is also the potential for things to continue peacefully without a need for change by either pig

 

[Piggies&buns]

Your 3 year old would hopefully put a baby in its place and maintain leadership for life.
Remember that more boar pairs make it together than not

There will only be aggression if they don’t get on but that aggression would happen pretty quickly into the bonding so you would never bring a piggy home in that circumstance