Bioactive Guinea Pig Enclosure

[Sweet Potato]

Although pregnancy issues are a problem especially in older sows I think in the wild predators and diseases would probably get them before that became an issue or would limit their lifespan so much that death during pregnancy wouldn't be cutting their lives that short

 

[Sweet Potato]

Thank you for your insight! I thought that if anyone here knew, it would be you. The domestication of a species is always an interesting conversation. I think the latest creatures that have been/are being domesticated are hedgehogs, though from the small bits I’ve read about it I don’t think it sounds ethical! But then I suppose thousands of years ago, when guinea pig domestication started (and that of other wild animals) I don’t imagine that could’ve been ethical either.

To be fair there are questions to be raised about whether keeping any animal in captivity is ethical I believe that it's ethical if we have the knowledge and capabilities to keep the animal well enough that their average life span in captivity is equal to or longer than it is in the wild. And I do not agree with keeping wild caught animals unless it is a rescue situation.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you for your response, very interesting, that must've been the case as online it always seems to say one boar in the wild to around 5-10 sows but there would always be an equal amount of sows to boars; possibly less sows compared to boars due to pregnancy issues later in life so It doesn't always add up. But like you said maybe sows didn't have as many pregnancy issues in the wild as they are very different. Seems such an interesting topic would love to be able to find out more.

Wild sows have a breeding season from spring to autumn with 3-4 pregnancies while domestic sows can breed nonstop all year round. That is the reason why even domestic boars can be randier and more likely to spoil for a fight; especially outdoors ones.

It is also worth keeping in mind that wild guinea pigs live on average three years with the odd expection living up to 8 years while the average life expectancy in domestic guinea pigs is twice as high with exceptional piggies living a lot longer.

But boars are more liable to die in the wild because they wouldn't be able to hold the best spots in a colony and would be pushed to the edge and therefore more vulnerable to predation and the extremes of climate. Boar coalitions also tend to be less stable than sow groups with a boar of their choice - preferably of course one that impresses them. Guinea pig society is very much geared towards protecting the sows and the babies because with the very long pregnancies (only their larger cousins, the capybaras have longer ones) and the comparatively small litters and higher rate of birthing complications because of the large size of the babies, they have to compensate as much as possible to keep their numbers stable in a notoriously volatile climate environment with huge swings.

 

[Tara95]

Wild sows have a breeding season from spring to autumn with 3-4 pregnancies while domestic sows can breed nonstop all year round. That is the reason why even domestic boars can be randier and more likely to spoil for a fight; especially outdoors ones.

It is also worth keeping in mind that wild guinea pigs live on average three years with the odd expection living up to 8 years while the average life expectancy in domestic guinea pigs is twice as high with exceptional piggies living a lot longer.

But boars are more liable to die in the wild because they wouldn't be able to hold the best spots in a colony and would be pushed to the edge and therefore more vulnerable to predation and the extremes of climate. Boar coalitions also tend to be less stable than sow groups with a boar of their choice - preferably of course one that impresses them. Guinea pig society is very much geared towards protecting the sows and the babies because with the very long pregnancies (only their larger cousins, the capybaras have longer ones) and the comparatively small litters and higher rate of birthing complications because of the large size of the babies, they have to compensate as much as possible to keep their numbers stable in a notoriously volatile climate environment with huge swings.

Very informative thank you

 

[Tara95]

To be fair there are questions to be raised about whether keeping any animal in captivity is ethical I believe that it's ethical if we have the knowledge and capabilities to keep the animal well enough that their average life span in captivity is equal to or longer than it is in the wild. And I do not agree with keeping wild caught animals unless it is a rescue situation.

That being said I don't think I agree with the demestication of guinea pigs in pet shops and as children's pets in tiny cages and males often being kept by themselves. I can't think of a species more inappropriately deemed a child's pet. I feel sorry for them as they were prey animals all those years ago to hawks etc and now they're prey to all these children. This forum has really opened my eyes to the good care that guinea pigs can and do receive and the appropriate care they need it's just a shame there is such misinformation out there especially with pet shops.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you for your insight! I thought that if anyone here knew, it would be you. The domestication of a species is always an interesting conversation. I think the latest creatures that have been/are being domesticated are hedgehogs, though from the small bits I’ve read about it I don’t think it sounds ethical! But then I suppose thousands of years ago, when guinea pig domestication started (and that of other wild animals) I don’t imagine that could’ve been ethical either.

4000-1000 years before Christ (guinea pigs were domesticated around the time of the pharaohs and the first large agricultural empires like Egypt, Mesopotamis or the Indus Culture), people in the Andes were focussed on ensuring their survival in a notoriously extreme climate. Guinea pigs were farm animals providing an important source of protein in the absence of poultry, sheep, goats, pigs and other Eurasion/African domesticated farm animals.
Since South American human social cohesion used to rely on large communal feasting, in which guinea pigs played an important role, we should be VERY careful in applying our own ethical views and judgment to other times and other cultures. The continuing popularity of guinea pig meat in those countries, which is usually abhorred by pet owners elsewhere, also needs be seen on that background with VERY deep historical and religious roots - it is one the same scale that some pre-Christian traditions still survive until today within a Christian contect but still deep emptional attachment - see bonfire night and all those very ancient fire traditions in countries with prounounced winters and long nights. The Incas for instance built their empire on food storage/food distribution in times of failed crops and communal feasting on an enormous inter-tribal scale much more so than on military expansion.
Because Europeans and North Americans have only ever known guinea pigs as pets for the last 500 years and less, we completely lack this kind of emotional traditional cultural attachment while some of our own is questionable to other cultures. Judging without respect and in ignorance of the context and the complexity of the matter is always dangerous. We can fight for changes in areas we deem as ethical only in our own time. We wouldn't be here as the human species if we hadn't learn to cook food, especially meat, at some point. We have now the choice to go vegetarian or vegan, but we still owe this debt to history. It is never that easy...

As said - there are several wild species of guinea pigs in south America (a couple threatened by extinction) and then there are domesticated farm piggies (the species that have become our pets). When having the discussion about welfare and how free our domesticated piggies should live, the one word you cannot use in this discussion is 'wild' because you are not talking about just apples; you are comparing apples with pears. Research into domestic guinea pigs and their natural instincts and social interaction has only just started, so there is not a lot of it around because they have as a species gone very much under the radar. And it also has to be clearly said that you cannot return domestic guinea pigs to a wild status to give them back their life; they haven't been wild for thousands of years.

There is also a very obvious problem with the logical conclusion from the extremists' position - who can afford the kind of space and care they demand as a minimum? Should pets only become the reserve of the privileged few (to which they mostly belong)? And what happens to all the piggies that cannot find homes - should they be euthanised like a rescue in Vancouverthat is run by adherents of this position already practises because hardly anybody can fulfill their sky high requirements? Isn't robbing rescued piggies of a life not a worse betrayal than giving them a second decent life if a five star life is not to be found?
It is good that a welfare discussion happens, but welfare is always a balance act between ideal and reality and practicability. It should be one step ahead of the majority of owners but never be unattainable for most.

 

[Sweet Potato]

That being said I don't think I agree with the demestication of guinea pigs in pet shops and as children's pets in tiny cages and males often being kept by themselves. I can't think of a species more inappropriately deemed a child's pet. I feel sorry for them as they were prey animals all those years ago to hawks etc and now they're prey to all these children. This forum has really opened my eyes to the good care that guinea pigs can and do receive and the appropriate care they need it's just a shame there is such misinformation out there especially with pet shops.

The idea of "children's pets" blows my mind anyway some children are great with animals and should be given opportunities to interact with them under supervision but not given the responsibility of having a life dependent on them. Hamsters, rabbits and goldfish have all met a similar fate once you research proper care for any animal it it so often a lot more complex than it may seem. My 12 year old sister got 2 turtles for Christmas 2 years ago when my dad couldn't think of anything else to get her (not a parenting decision i ever agreed with). She's a very responsible young lady but I can assure you so called children's pets are NEVER a good idea. My snake was my fiances childhood pet and he's spent the last 10 years with substandard care and was pretty much neglected when we went to university.

 

[Little Ones]

4000-1000 years before Christ (guinea pigs were domesticated around the time of the pharaohs and the first large agricultural empires like Egypt, Mesopotamis or the Indus Culture), people in the Andes were focussed on ensuring their survival in a notoriously extreme climate. Guinea pigs were farm animals providing an important source of protein in the absence of poultry, sheep, goats, pigs and other Eurasion/African domesticated farm animals.
Since South American human social cohesion used to rely on large communal feasting, in which guinea pigs played an important role, we should be VERY careful in applying our own ethical views and judgment to other times and other cultures. The continuing popularity of guinea pig meat in those countries, which is usually abhorred by pet owners elsewhere, also needs be seen on that background with VERY deep historical and religious roots - it is one the same scale that some pre-Christian traditions still survive until today within a Christian contect but still deep emptional attachment - see bonfire night and all those very ancient fire traditions in countries with prounounced winters and long nights. The Incas for instance built their empire on food storage/food distribution in times of failed crops and communal feasting on an enormous inter-tribal scale much more so than on military expansion.
Because Europeans and North Americans have only ever known guinea pigs as pets for the last 500 years and less, we completely lack this kind of emotional traditional cultural attachment while some of our own is questionable to other cultures. Judging without respect and in ignorance of the context and the complexity of the matter is always dangerous. We can fight for changes in areas we deem as ethical only in our own time. We wouldn't be here as the human species if we hadn't learn to cook food, especially meat, at some point. We have now the choice to go vegetarian or vegan, but we still owe this debt to history. It is never that easy...

As said - there are several wild species of guinea pigs in south America (a couple threatened by extinction) and then there are domesticated farm piggies (the species that have become our pets). When having the discussion about welfare and how free our domesticated piggies should live, the one word you cannot use in this discussion is 'wild' because you are not talking about just apples; you are comparing apples with pears. Research into domestic guinea pigs and their natural instincts and social interaction has only just started, so there is not a lot of it around because they have as a species gone very much under the radar.

Wow, thank you for all that. It’s fascinating. It didn’t occur to me that the domestication of guinea pigs was primarily for them to be a food source.
All of what you wrote is very interesting, it also makes you appreciate how our furry friends got to us. It makes me wonder if all our other domesticated pets went through a similar journey.
I can understand the outrage people have when they hear that animals we keep as pets, like piggies or dogs etc, are used for food in other countries. But for me, I don’t think there’s any difference between the animals eaten in western society and the animals we keep as pets. They are all intelligent, sentient beings. The only difference between a dog and a cow is how it is viewed in the society we live in. I know many people who slander animal/meat practices of cultural significance in other countries just because it isn’t ‘normal’ to our society even though we do the same thing (usually without any of that significance, too).
I hope I didn’t come off as insensitive in my previous response! By saying the domestication of guinea pigs may not have been ethical, I was referring to their basic needs being ignored or misunderstood due to lack of information available on the species. This is similar to what I’d seen about pygmy hedgehogs becoming pets in western society, some of their needs are going overlooked purely because they make ‘cute’ and ‘different’ pets. Perhaps it was ignorant of me to compare a modern day domestication to one that happened before common era. It wasn’t my intention to seem disrespectful, in fact it didn’t even come into my mind! I appreciate all your information, it really is interesting to learn how all of us got our lovely piggies, and how they played a vital part in human survival!

 

[Little Ones]

The idea of "children's pets" blows my mind anyway some children are great with animals and should be given opportunities to interact with them under supervision but not given the responsibility of having a life dependent on them. Hamsters, rabbits and goldfish have all met a similar fate once you research proper care for any animal it it so often a lot more complex than it may seem. My 12 year old sister got 2 turtles for Christmas 2 years ago when my dad couldn't think of anything else to get her (not a parenting decision i ever agreed with). She's a very responsible young lady but I can assure you so called children's pets are NEVER a good idea. My snake was my fiances childhood pet and he's spent the last 10 years with substandard care and was pretty much neglected when we went to university.

I completely agree with you. I’m not sure why children need their own small pets honestly. They say it’s to teach them empathy and responsibility, but they learn that regardless of if they keep pets. I think dogs and cats are the safest bet because of how involved they are in the family unit as a whole. Even then, my friends 10 year old brother once purposefully trapped the family cats head in the living room door. I saw it happen and I was just baffled. My friend would always joke that the cat didn’t like people, and it doesn’t surprise me if that was the treatment she was getting

 

[Sweet Potato]

I completely agree with you. I’m not sure why children need their own small pets honestly. They say it’s to teach them empathy and responsibility, but they learn that regardless of if they keep pets. I think dogs and cats are the safest bet because of how involved they are in the family unit as a whole. Even then, my friends 10 year old brother once purposefully trapped the family cats head in the living room door. I saw it happen and I was just baffled. My friend would always joke that the cat didn’t like people, and it doesn’t surprise me if that was the treatment she was getting

That's horrific! Poor kitty. Some people shouldn't have pets whether they are a child or not. I think family pets are completely different and children can be encouraged to have a role in looking after family pets for example, giving the piggies their pellets or just interacting with them in a supervised situation but putting all that responsibility onto a child is just wrong not only for the danger it puts the animal in but also how traumatic it can be for the child when things go wrong and they realise they're responsible for the death of an animal they loved and cherished.

 

[Wiebke]

Wow, thank you for all that. It’s fascinating. It didn’t occur to me that the domestication of guinea pigs was primarily for them to be a food source.
All of what you wrote is very interesting, it also makes you appreciate how our furry friends got to us. It makes me wonder if all our other domesticated pets went through a similar journey.
I can understand the outrage people have when they hear that animals we keep as pets, like piggies or dogs etc, are used for food in other countries. But for me, I don’t think there’s any difference between the animals eaten in western society and the animals we keep as pets. They are all intelligent, sentient beings. The only difference between a dog and a cow is how it is viewed in the society we live in. I know many people who slander animal/meat practices of cultural significance in other countries just because it isn’t ‘normal’ to our society even though we do the same thing (usually without any of that significance, too).
I hope I didn’t come off as insensitive in my previous response! By saying the domestication of guinea pigs may not have been ethical, I was referring to their basic needs being ignored or misunderstood due to lack of information available on the species. This is similar to what I’d seen about pygmy hedgehogs becoming pets in western society, some of their needs are going overlooked purely because they make ‘cute’ and ‘different’ pets. Perhaps it was ignorant of me to compare a modern day domestication to one that happened before common era. It wasn’t my intention to seem disrespectful, in fact it didn’t even come into my mind! I appreciate all your information, it really is interesting to learn how all of us got our lovely piggies, and how they played a vital part in human survival!

The vast majority of pets have started out either as hunting companions (dogs, birds of prey etc.) or as farm animals once humanity made the shift from hunter-gatherers to farmers and from hunting to herding. The dog was the first tamed and then bred human companion; he predates farming. Dogs are not even the same species anymore as wolves. The border between farm animal and pet have also always been a bit blurred as along the line many farm animals have also been loved and cherished companions; especially babies that needed special care to survive after their mother's death or rejection. The human who tamed the dog is evolutionarily not distinct from a contemporary human and could live today amongst us without standing out would they get the same upbringing as us.

'Designer pets' are also not a new phenomenon and not unique to our modern society; see caged songbirds, oriental goldfish and or lap dogs etc. I agree that ethical concerns in view of new species used as pets, show/competitive breeding or commercial designer breeds are much stronger and need to be asked, especially when they a detrimental to an animal's health and quality of life.
We cannot go back and deny our ancestors the right to utilise animals in order to shore up their survival the same way we cannot go back to blame our ancestors for slavery when slavery was something that just was and had been around in some form or other since tribal warfare in the mist of dawn. We can only ever change the present and hope to make the future better by acknowledging inherited moral problems and try to correct them in order to strive for a fairer world.

We can acknowledge that we have a responsibility towards giving both animals we eat and animals we keep as pets respect and a good life for as long as it lasts and strive for animal welfare to be practised as much as we can. But we cannot go back and 're-wild' domesticated breeds who are the results of thousands of years of continuous human-controlled breeding.

 

[Wiebke]

Although pregnancy issues are a problem especially in older sows I think in the wild predators and diseases would probably get them before that became an issue or would limit their lifespan so much that death during pregnancy wouldn't be cutting their lives that short

Biologically, sows and guinea pigs as a species have been designed only to live for up to three years and either die in birth or from being worn out. That is why there was never a need for a menopause; the very few sows living to an older age were more likely sterile. Ovarian cysts are a result of the hormone output never lowering and many of the health issues that a long life bring with it have never needed provision by nature because they didn't happen often enough to count or to influence species survival.

 

[Wiebke]

That's horrific! Poor kitty. Some people shouldn't have pets whether they are a child or not. I think family pets are completely different and children can be encouraged to have a role in looking after family pets for example, giving the piggies their pellets or just interacting with them in a supervised situation but putting all that responsibility onto a child is just wrong not only for the danger it puts the animal in but also how traumatic it can be for the child when things go wrong and they realise they're responsible for the death of an animal they loved and cherished.

Have you ever read our parents' guide in the New Owners section and added to both the Wannabe Owners and the New Owners information collections? I have made this point very clearly right in the first two chapters.
Children And Guinea Pigs - A Guide For Parents

 

[Sweet Potato]

Have you ever read our parents' guide in the New Owners section and added to both the Wannabe Owners and the New Owners information collections? I have made this point very clearly right in the first two chapters.
Children And Guinea Pigs - A Guide For Parents

Sorry as I'm not a parent myself I have not had a need to read this my point was more generally about the concept of any pet being for children and not just about keeping Guinea pigs in a family home.

 

[Wiebke]

Sorry as I'm not a parent myself I have not had a need to read this my point was more generally about the concept of any pet being for children and not just about keeping Guinea pigs in a family home.

I just wanted to tell you that our parents' guide very much makes the point that guinea pigs are first and foremost family pets and not children's pets. It is parents who teach responsibility and commitment through their own example by how they look after the guinea pigs in the long term - it is their attitude that their children will copy in how they treat the weak and dependent (including their aging parents) over the course of their lives. There are some thought provoking things in there that go for all ages...
Still worth reading, as you never know when you as a guinea pig keeper get into a chat or are as asked by somebody in a shop about guinea pigs. It does happen!

 

[Pound Shilling & Pig]

We cannot go back and deny our ancestors the right to utilise animals in order to shore up their survival the same way we cannot go back to blame our ancestors for slavery when slavery was something that just was and had been around in some form or other since tribal warfare in the mist of dawn. We can only ever change the present and hope to make the future better by acknowledging inherited moral problems and try to correct them in order to strive for a fairer world.

I agree with what you say about humankind's relationship with animals, historically all cultures have exploited them whether by hunting them or domesticating them and it would be wrong to say that any given culture was wrong to have domesticated a particular species whether that species was a guinea pig, chicken or horse.

However, I, respectfully, take a different view when it comes to blaming our ancestors for slavery. I have always felt that it is a thin excuse to use the reasoning that because slavery had happened before it somehow justified the mass and sustained slave trade out of Africa. Yes, throughout history there have been times and cultures where slavery has been practised but there have also been periods and cultures where it hasn't so I would argue that it is not the norm. So I think we can and should look back and question and judge our ancestors for their actions.. By the standards of their own time they had a choise. Slavery was not a part of our culture in England at the time, so it's not as if it was a natural expansion of our culture into other countries we were colonising. Also, then as now, England was a Christian country and back then that was of more significance than today because far more people were believers and practitioners and although I am not a religious person, I am not aware of any bible stories where it says enslaving others is ok. So I can't help but think that those involved with the slave trade must have known, on some level, that what they were doing was wrong. Some who profited may well have been philanthropists but may be that was in part to ease their conscience?

I wonder if, in a few hundred years time when our descendants look back at us and see how we kept our piggies on fleece and wore clothes of man-made fabrics, in the full knowledge that with every wash we are flushing harmful plastic micro fibres into the oceans, they will judge us harshly or say "oh well it was just the way things were back then"?

My only knowledge of bioactive environments is what I have learnt from this thread and can't see how they can work for piggies and be good for them. But I think that looking to find more natural ways to keep pigs that benefits both them and the wider environment can only be a good thing.

 

[Wiebke]

I agree with what you say about humankind's relationship with animals, historically all cultures have exploited them whether by hunting them or domesticating them and it would be wrong to say that any given culture was wrong to have domesticated a particular species whether that species was a guinea pig, chicken or horse.

However, I, respectfully, take a different view when it comes to blaming our ancestors for slavery. I have always felt that it is a thin excuse to use the reasoning that because slavery had happened before it somehow justified the mass and sustained slave trade out of Africa. Yes, throughout history there have been times and cultures where slavery has been practised but there have also been periods and cultures where it hasn't so I would argue that it is not the norm. So I think we can and should look back and question and judge our ancestors for their actions.. By the standards of their own time they had a choise. Slavery was not a part of our culture in England at the time, so it's not as if it was a natural expansion of our culture into other countries we were colonising. Also, then as now, England was a Christian country and back then that was of more significance than today because far more people were believers and practitioners and although I am not a religious person, I am not aware of any bible stories where it says enslaving others is ok. So I can't help but think that those involved with the slave trade must have known, on some level, that what they were doing was wrong. Some who profited may well have been philanthropists but may be that was in part to ease their conscience?

I wonder if, in a few hundred years time when our descendants look back at us and see how we kept our piggies on fleece and wore clothes of man-made fabrics, in the full knowledge that with every wash we are flushing harmful plastic micro fibres into the oceans, they will judge us harshly or say "oh well it was just the way things were back then"?

My only knowledge of bioactive environments is what I have learnt from this thread and can't see how they can work for piggies and be good for them. But I think that looking to find more natural ways to keep pigs that benefits both them and the wider environment can only be a good thing.

I agree with you that how you treat others has always had a choice element in it; there are so many different forms of outright and more or less quasi-slavery throughout history until today. The industrial form as practised by the colonising Spanish, Portuguese (just think of what happened in South and North America where colonisation became pretty much a full-on genocide on indigenous people), English or Dutch and later Belgiums and Germans in Africa, or even by the Romans with their slave mines and vast country estates run by slaves is entirely reprehensible indeed; those who practised or profited directly or indirectly from it knowingly have made a choice and should be held accountable for it. Like mysogyny or racism, abuse and exploitation are however extremely pervasive. However, the picture is very often not just black or white but a hundred thousand shades of grey - and those are much more difficult to judge in hindsight. But especially in England and the USA, the issue of slavery and its still present repercussions are an issue that has been ignored for far too long.

I am certain that today's world and our choices are being judged harshly by future generations but finding a good way through it all is anything but easy when you are stuck in it and have to balance choices, needs and practicabilities on daily basis.

 

[Pound Shilling & Pig]

I agree with you that how you treat others has always had a choice element in it; there are so many different forms of outright and more or less quasi-slavery throughout history until today. The industrial form as practised by the colonising Spanish, Portuguese (just think of what happened in South and North America where colonisation became pretty much a full-on genocide on indigenous people), English or Dutch and later Belgiums and Germans in Africa, or even by the Romans with their slave mines and vast country estates run by slaves is entirely reprehensible indeed; those who practised or profited directly or indirectly from it knowingly have made a choice and should be held accountable for it. Like mysogyny or racism, abuse and exploitation are however extremely pervasive. However, the picture is very often not just black or white but a hundred thousand shades of grey - and those are much more difficult to judge in hindsight. But especially in England and the USA, the issue of slavery and its still present repercussions are an issue that has been ignored for far too long.

I am certain that today's world and our choices are being judged harshly by future generations but finding a good way through it all is anything but easy when you are stuck in it and have to balance choices, needs and practicabilities on daily basis.

I agree it is a difficult path for us to tread. We will always make mistakes both as a society and as individuals but we should always keep our minds open and tread softly where we can

 

[Wiebke]

I agree it is a difficult path for us to tread. We will always make mistakes both as a society and as individuals but we should always keep our minds open and tread softly where we can

I fully agree. The big issue is actually that we are not aware just how much societal subconscious training and indoctrination there is on a personal basis. I call these things 'cultural potholes' because I got caught in quite a few when I emigrated to the UK and I instinctively reacted very differently to everybody around me - and this bias we are usually not even aware of happens on so many unthinking levels, whether this is different backgrounds, gender, race, sexual orientation etc. etc.

I try to go by the mantra to treat everybody else how I want to be treated as the easiest personal guideline. There are still things we will become aware of only as time goes by and things change. They have already changed so much since my childhood.