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Bladder Piggies

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Elwickcavies

Elwickcavies

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Reading the thread in the Food section on Readigrass has got me thinking, and I thought I'd enlist your help. Piggies are prone to bladder problems and stones, with obvious links to the calcium in their diet, we know that. I know that in humans, some people are much more likely to get stones (gall, kidney etc.) than others, due to their natural blood chemistry. I live in a very hard water area, and have never had any bladder problems with any of my pigs (fingers crossed), despite giving them tap water to drink, so my question to you all is this. Has anyone found that particular breeds are more prone, or pigs from particular areas, or just pigs in the same family. I'd be interested to hear your experiences.
 
My Madeline recently had a stone, we live in a hard water area but her water was filtered. I have heard that some pigs are more prone to them especially abbys but I don't know why. Maddie was a PEW.

My pigs are on a low calcium diet and grainless pellets, sadly it did not stop Maddie getting a stone but I blame myself for that as when she was poorly (related to her heart condition) I would tempt her with the only thing she would eat - spinach. I will not be doing that again. Luckily I have no signs of stones in the other pigs and they are all giving me perfect wee tests too. I think her stone was likely related to their old dry food too.
 
I've had 2 previous pigs with stones, both females that luckily passed them. Both were Rex piggies & my current bladder pig is also Rex, she has not formed a stone but has had a bladder flush & gets the odd infection but so far we are managing with 0.1ml Metacam once daily & monthly Cartrophen injections. My Aby cross does a lot of chalky wees, fortunately my vet did x rays when she removed a benign lump 2 weeks ago & no stone was visible. They don't get calcium rich veg, have filtered water & have restricted pellets twice a day, about a tablespoon per pig a day.
 
By the way I cannot see why Readigrass would have anymore calcium than normal grass as surely it's the same thing as grass, just dried? Anyway I don't give mine it, they get hay,hay & more hay ;)
 
About 10 years ago 3 of my 14 piggies ( all boars) developed bladder stone within 6 months of each other. They were unrelated. One was a rex, one a crested and one a smoth coat agouti. All were age 4 or younger. I stopped feeding concentrates and changed to a hay and veg diet. In recent years I started to feed concentrates again in winter and in jan 2013 one of my boars developed a stone and had an opp. i have not fed him any concentrates (or grain) since. Touch wood, he is doing fine. He is an abby cross and age 3
 
We were discussing it on the other thread and think it may be because it's dried, I have just been told it is a big no no for pigs with IC so don't feed it, I can find out the exact reason why if needed though.
 
Pound Shilling & Pig said:
About 10 years ago 3 of my 14 piggies ( all boars) developed bladder stone within 6 months of each other. They were unrelated. One was a rex, one a crested and one a smoth coat agouti. All were age 4 or younger. I stopped feeding concentrates and changed to a hay and veg diet. In recent years I started to feed concentrates again in winter and in jan 2013 one of my boars developed a stone and had an opp. i have not fed him any concentrates (or grain) since. Touch wood, he is doing fine. He is an abby cross and age 3
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What do you mean by concentrates?
 
Do you mean pellets? I suppose the ingredients are concentrated into a pellet.
 
WARNING - SCIENTIFIC GEEK SPEAK!

This is a very interesting question Jo - and like you I am very curious (even frustrated!) about the (lack of) development and possible prevention/alleviation of urinary issues in piggies. (I will PM you on this over the next few days if I may?)

So here is my information in answer to your immediate question:

All my pigs had/have tap water.

1) When I was a kid, my (4 smooth haired male and female) piggies and I, lived in a very hard water area. (Somerset limestone - Wessex Water) No bladder problems at all (even with the benefit of hindsight!) Classic red dutch male, buff sheltie X dutch male, slate/white dutch x sheltie (female) and agouti/black X (female) (Males not neutered - males passed away before females were acquired!)

2) The last 18 "adult" years of piggie keeping has been in a less hard water area - but nevertheless still classified as hard (Sussex clay - South East Water area)

So over the last 18 years, I have been a slave to 3 "groups" of piggies whilst in Sussex.

Group 1 - 4 pigs all deceased: two pet shop females (sisters?) both pregnant with one offspring each. Mummy (Piglet) - smooth/sheltie cross with black dutch markings may (in hindsight) have had a stone. Her daughter Honey (smooth/sheltie cross with buff dutch markings) had no urinary issues. The other mum (Pooh) and unneutered son (Tigger - kept separetely) were both smooth haired - first agouti dutch type, latter pure agouti - neither had urinary issues.

Group 2 - 16 in all, some related, some not. Only one alive now (Old boy Ginger!) The following 3/16 had urinary issues - Sludge, Interstitial cystitis or stones.
  • Maple: Aby un-neutered buff male - age 4+ - PM done - tiny gritty calculi found embedded in bladder wall. Horrendous bleeding in wee requiring Vit K injections
  • Fleure: Unrelated agouti smooth haired female - diagnosed with multiple kidney stones on Xray (after removing large stone from urethra) at age 4+
  • Bailey: Unrelated Chocolate/buff smooth haired unneutered male - large bladder stone age 4+ (kidneys etc OK)
Group 3: 12 pigs all but one still alive - all rescue pigs unrelated from all over the country with who knows what history! Only 2 have urinary issues (.......so far!)
  • Tamarind: Female spayed tricolour (Black/Tan/White) aby - multiple stones in both ureters age 4+ so PTS
  • Carson: Agouti/tan/white sheltie cross - bladder sludge.
Carson is my only bladder pig still living (well, we are going back over 18 years of history!) He was diagnosed with sludge at age aprox 2-3yrs of age , given a bladder flush and has been on a non-leafy-green diet as it appears that leafy greens make him squawk when peeing and pooing. The diagnosis/bladder flush was either 2011/2012 and I think he may need another one soon. Carson is only allowed to have fresh grass, dandelions, carrots, baby corn, parsley (in moderation) apple, pepper, dried speciality forage (including marigolds/hays etc). I have noticed that readigrass recently can make him squawk!

All the pigs in Groups 2 and 3 were/are being fed on various dried food every other day depending upon their individual circumstances: These include Gertie Guinea, P@H nuggets (great for mush mix and syringe feeding instead of CC) , and more recently Burgess nuggets and Harringtons nugget. I am just about to start introducing JR grainless feed (they are all VERY fussy individuals -each to their own preference!)

Veg wise - they always/still get veggies every other day which is alternated with readigrass or meadow/speciality hay in addition to the dried food mentioned above

Fresh Veggie mixes include by rotation:
a) spinach/romaine/parsley;
b) celery/apple/baby corn/peppers/broccoli florets
c) kale or spring greens plus cos or romaine lettuce
d) carrots
e) in summer - grass and dandelions, plantain, bittercress, and any other "forage" they deign to eat
f) any combination of the above depending upon what's in the fridge at the time!

So far i have personally been unable to determine any obvious "link" with tap water - except and insofar as it "may" have an impact on pigs with certain genetics. At the moment i don;t think we have enough information/research to be able to "predict" or "minimise"the risk of urinary symptoms for a pig - but like you it is something i would like to work towards.

Will PM you about this and further thoughts later in the week in the hope we can join forces to help "crack open" this distressing condition in our pigs.

x
 
Yes that can be a sign of stones but it could also be one of a number of other condtions. If you are concerned that your pig is struggling to pee or poo he needs to be seen by the vet. If you suspect stones then an xray or scan may be needed. Welcome to the forum.

I am a firm believer that diet pays a huge part in the prevention of stones and that pigs should be fed as natual a diet as possible. Unfortunately most commercial mixes are full of ingredients that just add to the problem which is why they should be fed in moderation. I have been lucky to have been privvy to lots of research on this subject recently and I know that numerous vets in the UK and America have been consulted and that this information is taken from a wide variety of pigs, and for the most part diet was the main contributor to stones and other bladder issues.
 
Pebble, joining forces sounds good. Helen, it's interesting that diet may be more important than water. I agree about the natural diet, in the summer mine get a lot of dandelions, chickweed, grounsel etc. and grass of course, but they do have nuggets (I use Burgess Excel, the minty one), which is also good for syringe feeding in a mush. Looks like we have some data to work with Pebble, more needed of course! Thanks for your input guys!
 
Elwickcavies said:
Reading the thread in the Food section on Readigrass has got me thinking, and I thought I'd enlist your help. Piggies are prone to bladder problems and stones, with obvious links to the calcium in their diet, we know that. I know that in humans, some people are much more likely to get stones (gall, kidney etc.) than others, due to their natural blood chemistry. I live in a very hard water area, and have never had any bladder problems with any of my pigs (fingers crossed), despite giving them tap water to drink, so my question to you all is this. Has anyone found that particular breeds are more prone, or pigs from particular areas, or just pigs in the same family. I'd be interested to hear your experiences.
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Out of interest what dry food do you feed your piggies? :) Sorry just saw your reply! That's interesting, as I always thought it's pellets that can cause stones :)
 
I have kept piggies since 1998 and have had a lot in my care over the years, and have never had a guinea pig with a bladder problem. What do I do different to so many other people, who seem to be plagued by bladder issues? I have been giving this a lot of thought recently and the only thing I can come up with is that my guinea pigs spend time outdoors on a regular basis. I get them out in the runs, even in the winter months, if it a bright and sunny day, if only for 20 mins. Could it be anything to do with Vitamin D, assisting in the absorption of calcium? Are indoor piggies Vitamin D deficient? With regard to diet, mine have a very small amount of nuggets, a small amount of veg, but lots of grass and hay. Each night I fill all the cages and hutches to the top with hay, and by morning most of it has been eaten. Could the diet and lifestyle my guinea pigs lead be the reason they don't get bladder issues?
 
I would be keen to understand more about this too. I have had one pig with very bad stones who died aged 3 just after an op to remove them (RIP long haired Leonard) - his background is unknown but since he was found in a skip - likely to have been rough! His bladder wall was in a total mess and we was weeing blood at the end - it was grim. Another piggie that Debbie met (RIP Sampson) also an older rescue boar (maybe 5yrs?)had bladder stones but other things going on as well so not sure what actually caused his death. He was underfed before being rescued and probably fed a poor diet of nuggets and not much else.

I continue to give tap water but we do live in a hard water area. However, I feed quite a lot of wet veg so find my boys do not drink much from their bottles. When I discussed prevention with my exotics vet (he was disturbed by Leonard's death after op too) he felt that people focus too much on the calcium content of veg - the amounts are so tiny and diluted with water within the veg. He felt the more important focus should be the balance of the diet (ie loads of grass / hay)and the calcium content of the hay since this should be the vast majority of their diet. As mentioned above, he advocated only feeding minimal amounts of dried nuggets. Would love to get more answers about approach to water, nuggets and hay analysis.
 
I'm going to get her to a vet tomorrow, I'm in a new area so will call around first to see whos good with gpigs. I'm in Australia btw so our pellets wont be the same brands so cant compare.
Shes eating well and drinks a lot but always has fingers crossed shell be ok :-/ i feel so bad for her.
She has plenty of hay and veg twice a day, i had been pulling grass from my own lawn but were in a caravan park atm so i m not sure whats been on the grass.
 
furryfriends Excellent Adventure Sanctuary said:
I have kept piggies since 1998 and have had a lot in my care over the years, and have never had a guinea pig with a bladder problem. What do I do different to so many other people, who seem to be plagued by bladder issues? I have been giving this a lot of thought recently and the only thing I can come up with is that my guinea pigs spend time outdoors on a regular basis. I get them out in the runs, even in the winter months, if it a bright and sunny day, if only for 20 mins. Could it be anything to do with Vitamin D, assisting in the absorption of calcium? Are indoor piggies Vitamin D deficient? With regard to diet, mine have a very small amount of nuggets, a small amount of veg, but lots of grass and hay. Each night I fill all the cages and hutches to the top with hay, and by morning most of it has been eaten. Could the diet and lifestyle my guinea pigs lead be the reason they don't get bladder issues?
Click to expand...

The issue of Vitamin D is one I'd not thought of. Do Guineas produce vitamin D in their skin if they have fur? My piggies only really go out in the summer, and their diet has more veg in it than yours, yet no stones either. This is all good stuff to think about.
 
How do you go about weaning pigs off of nuggets though? Boris has always had problems with his bladder but has never has stones (as far as I'm aware), i'd love to cut nuggets out to lower the chance of stones forming but they do love their nuggets! Has anyone got tips to wean them off and how do you replace them? Sorry if this is slightly off topic!
 
I know a few people who only give their pigs a few pellets a day.


LydiaMinx said:
How do you go about weaning pigs off of nuggets though? Boris has always had problems with his bladder but has never has stones (as far as I'm aware), i'd love to cut nuggets out to lower the chance of stones forming but they do love their nuggets! Has anyone got tips to wean them off and how do you replace them? Sorry if this is slightly off topic!
Click to expand...
 
I too think vitamin D is a factor, I don't have the luxury of outside space so my pigs don't go outside, however I try make sure they get as much natural light as possible and that I meet all of their nutritional needs. I can't feed grass as have no access to untainted grass. I do feed a very large variety of hay.

I think the vet that says the calcium in veg is negligible is being a bit niave as if you add this to the fact that some owners feed high calcium veg regularly together with endless full bowls of pellets it will soon add up. I made this mistake years ago and Johnny developed a stone after full bowls of Pets at Home pellets, daily romaine and spinach etc. I learnt my lesson and changed their diet. In over 20 pigs I have had 2 with stones.
 
Like Debbie - I also think sunlight may have a role to play. Not just in terms of Vit D and action of UV on the skin (ears!) but also in terms of its effects on the endocrine system via pineal and pituitary glands. Since all my pigs became year-round indoor pigs. the incidence of urinary issues has increased from 12% to 20% of my piggie population.

Vit D is linked to the way Calcium is absorbed and metabolised and we know piggies metabolise calcium differently than say hoomans, hence why there is a lot of emphasis on reducing calcium intake for urinary piggies. Piggie wee is much more alkaline than hoomans, creating a better environment for insoluble calcium salts/sludge to form; I therefore wonder whether human treatments for cystitis etc that alter the pH of the urine (generally to make it more alkaline) will have the same beneficial effect on piggies or actually make the situation worse?. I do thiink there is merit in potassium citrate because the citrate competes to bind to calcium and calcium citrate is soluble in wee.

Also some consideration needs to be factored in on the type of sludge/stone -a US study showed a large percentage of stones analysed from pigs were not calcium oxalate as first thought but actually calcium carbonate (possibly due to the alkalinity of their urine) However you can also get calcium struvite stones, which are believed to arise from the bacteria causing a urinary infection and the calcium oxalate stones commonly found in dogs are believed to arise from diet high in oxalic acid.

There is a disease called metastatic calcification which can occur in piggies where calcium is deposited throughout soft tissue/organs. Studying the reason/cause for this might be useful as it could point to the real cause(s) of the stone-sludge issue in pigs.

I don't think there will be one simple answer as I think the formation of stones/sludge is multi-factorial - including diet, metabolism, environment, bacterial intervention and genetics. Given the amount of inbreeding of piggies in this day and age, and increasing numbers of urinary pigs, I do think however it may point to some underlying genetic component (maybe lack an enzyme in a particular pathway) that means some pigs are less able to metabolise/excrete calcium as a soluble salt (such as calcium citrate) rather than as an insoluble salt (such as calcium carbonate)These pigs would potentially have a greater risk of developing stones/sludge and therefore anything we do in terms of diet etc would help to minimise that.

Sadly, without a research grant/enthusiastic scientist we may never find the answers. However it occurs to me that maybe there is something we can do to set the ball rolling so I will PM a few people over easter weekend once I've put the cunning plan together!

x
 
helen105281 said:
I too think vitamin D is a factor, I don't have the luxury of outside space so my pigs don't go outside, however I try make sure they get as much natural light as possible and that I meet all of their nutritional needs. I can't feed grass as have no access to untainted grass. I do feed a very large variety of hay.

I think the vet that says the calcium in veg is negligible is being a bit niave as if you add this to the fact that some owners feed high calcium veg regularly together with endless full bowls of pellets it will soon add up. I made this mistake years ago and Johnny developed a stone after full bowls of Pets at Home pellets, daily romaine and spinach etc. I learnt my lesson and changed their diet. In over 20 pigs I have had 2 with stones.
Click to expand...

I think you are being a bit unfair on my vet! I think his point was you can get very hung up on analysis of the calcium intake in particular veg BUT if you are still feeding a pile of pellets and too little hay that rather negates the veg aspect. I avoid spinach, parsley and moderate broccoli etc but I take his point that the balance is probably most important.

Pebbles cunning plan sounds interesting! Will watch this space.
 
I wasn't being unfair just pointing out that calcium in veg is important especially when fed with other high calcium foods. It is all about balance like you say but you can't say point blank that calcium in veg is not important as it is when you consider the bigger picture. I actually think we probably mean the same thing but have put it differently. I have seen lots of evidence in this last year that only feeding low calcium veg, none or more natural pellets and endless amounts of hay can stop stones forming. This is from actual pigs my friend has dealt with that have been referred to her by the vets she volunteers at, so it is not just a theory. I also have no calcium deposits from my herd on this diet.
 
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Ahem! I don't think that ANY comment on this thread is without value - and I don;t think that ANY contributors are in any way trying to undermine any other person's vets.

Let's just think back to piggie healthcare a few years ago and how dire it was...and how far we have come thanks to the COMBINED efforts of vets, slaves, rescues, CCT and other organisations alike.


Firstly it was URI's, secondly it was dental, then gut stasis. Preganancy now has dedicated and experienced advisors (on or off the Forum)
The vets, CCT, Rescues and Owners have now, between them, "solved" many of these health problems over the last 10 years.... so now urinary probs needs investigation/pooling of knowledge and resources.

I.E. Bladder/urinary issues is now THE "condition" for pigs that NOW requires definitive answers. That is clear given postings on this thread but also in previous threads.
We as a Forum need to encourage all vets and owners (and others) to start by acknowledging the problem and be willing to help and share their work/observations towards identifying the cause and also any specific treatments that might help the piggies concerned.

It is heartening to see so many people posting on this thread - this is clearly a big issue with slaves.....please don;t attack each other. We will SHORTLY (when I get my act together) have a cunning proposal that you may wish to feel a part of, to try and help ALL urinary/bladder piggies, without feeling you or your vets are in any way being criticised.

It's late - night night
 
Another thought to throw about, I know overweight cats are more likely to suffer bladder issues, so is weight a problem here? Without meaning to offend anyone, I do think most people's guinea pigs are somewhat overweight, as for some reason it seems to be considered 'the bigger the better'. My guinea pigs would probably be considered rather thin, compared to most, but maybe this is the reason I don't have bladder issue pigs. Just a thought!
 
I don't think weights been an issue with my bladder piggies, although Petal pig is the largest I've ever had (1.5 kg!) She's been that size since I got her, her breed is a large breed anyway. She hasn't yet formed a stone but has had sludge & UTIs. Her previous owner did feed them a lot of greens though. On the other hand the teeniest sow I ever had, Poppy, passed a stone naturally & prior to that all our others had regular grass time, didn't have high calcium veg yet 2 still had stones :( I don't think it's bedding either, all ours were kept on wood shavings before & now are on fleece. I wonder if maybe the Vitamin D & exercise could be the key; maybe piggies lead more of a sedentary lifestyle & need far more exercise too ;)
 
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