Bladder Stone Piggy Still Has Problems Despite Low Ca Diet. Advice?

[Herbadurp]

Hello everyone!

My poor piggy Herbert had his second bladder stone removal surgery this last Monday, 5 weeks after his first. Since, I have been giving him 50-70 extra mls of water and have cut his pellets completely. He gets unlimited orchard grass hay and a lot of veggies, but I have been noticing powdery urine deposits on his fleece still! Am I doing something wrong? He gets 4-5 leaves of red or green leaves lettuce, a chunk of cucumber, 3 slices of tomato, 3 leaves of endive, 1/8th of a green bell, and 1/8th of a colored bell. Every other day he gets 3 cranberries and a small slice of nectarine, as well. According to the guinealynx chart, these are all low in calcium, but is there a chance that I may be giving him too much? He has lost weight because of his bladder issues, so I have been quite generous with his veggies but now I'm not sure if it will even help. Also, his water bottle has a tiny amount of unsweetened apple juice to encourage drinking.

I have done a lot of browsing and came across some herbal supplements that may aid in preventing stone formation in piggies, but I am not sure I should go through with any of them. Has anyone tried such supplements with success? I have been looking into hydrangea root extract and chanca piedra, but am a bit hesitant to go forward. I also read that glucosamine, potassium citrate, and shilntong have been useful in prevention. He currently gets the Urinary Support tablets by oxbow and 50 mg of vitamin C, but that's about it as far as supplementation goes. He has a follow up with his vet on Monday, so I will ask her about the deposit. She wants to crack down on preventing this from happening again, so we will be heading to her frequently to monitor his bladder activity.

Any advice or insight would be GREATLY appreciated.

~Herbert & Mommy

 

[gizzy]

hi, lf l were you, the only veg l would give for the time being is red pepper and cucumber to flush the blader

 

[Wiebke]

hi, lf l were you, the only veg l would give for the time being is red pepper and cucumber to flush the blader

Your veg diet is a bit unbalanced; try to limit the amount of veg and be cautious without overfeeding lettuce (which is very high in vitamin A that can build up in liver, as it is not water soluble, and especially fruit - the latter can cause cheilitis (lip infection) and a too sugary diet can cause long problems with diabetes...
You may find the recommendations in our balanced IC (interstitial cystitis diet), which has been carefully researched to make sure that guinea pigs with bladder problems get a long term balanced nutrient input; this includes a certain amount of calcium and some vital magnesium, which is only found in calcium veg. Together, the pepper and the sprig of chilantro provide the necessary vitamin C and minerals.

I have copied it out for you here:
Veg and fresh herbs that can be fed daily and used for a long term balanced low calcium diet ("IC diet") in the quantities listed:
1 slice of bell or sweet pepper/capsicum of any colour; 1 slice of cucumber; 1-2 chunks of celery; 1 French bean; 1 sprig of coriander/cilantro; 1 one inch strip of spring greens

Please DO NOT add anything to his water; it won't encourage him to drink more and a watery diet will do the same. It is much more effective to have one or two water syringing sessions every day. Try to get as much water into him as he will take into him in each session, ideally up to 10-15 ml but that may not be possible. This will help much more effectively to flush any minerals and calcium out of the bladder.

Filter any water you syringe and fill his bottle with. Water is an important source of calcium and minerals to can build up in the bladder.

Sadly, it can happen sometimes that a new stone can build up very quickly. Careful nutrition is only one aspect (and often the only one that you can control) that influences the complex process of calcium absorption. It very much depends what is going wrong in that process and how much of a genetic disposition Herbie has got.
But it is worth working on a balanced long term diet. We have made good experiences with our recommended diet and have been able to cut down the recurrence of stones a lot.

Your vet may consider whether she'd like to try potassium citrate in Herbie's case to see whether that can additionally help to slow down the formation of stones. There is sadly not wonder drug that can dissolve or prevent stones; none of the ones that have been touted around have stood the test of time.

I am very sorry that Herbie is in that position again so soon. I know from my own experience with my Cariad how frustrating it is. Her calcium absorption suddenly went out of kilter and she developed fast growing stones and then regular bladder sludge issues. I did manage to extend the intervals in which she needed treatment with a lot of trial and error until I could fine tune her specific trigger factors, and she lived for another 1 1/2 years to a good age of years with her problems, despite being a very low weight at around 700g and despite needing an emergency spaying operation when her womb went horribly wrong just months after her bladder op.

 

[TAN]

Strangely enough my Bumble has suffered from bladder stones and is now on a new medication to help prevent the stones forming in the first place - my specialist vet had to get the instructions from America to convert the medicine into a liquid for my piggy - there is a lot more information on my thread on here titled for those who have pigs with bladder stones - basically there is a medicine in tablet form called Moduretic (50mg tablet ) that is used to help prevent stones forming in humans - until now it has been difficult to grind down the tablet and get it into a liquid form at the correct strength for a little piggy - this has now been done, with the instructions coming from the States - my Bumble is on 0.2ml twice a day for 4 weeks then reducing to once a day - he also takes 0.07ml potassium citrate twice a day - the Moduretic (might be called another name in the states) only cost me a few pounds, so shouldn't be expensive - your vet could email my vet who will give your vet the instructions of how to make it up for you if this is something you want to try - her name is Rachel Mowbray and she is at Vale Vets animal hospital, Stinchcombe,Dursley,Gloucestershire U.K.

 

[Herbadurp]

I'm so sorry for never responding! Unfortunately, two weeks ago his vet found another stone and just this past Monday we saw that it had gotten a little bigger. She had some potassium citrate compounded for me and Herb has been on that since the 2nd of February and it has managed to stop the powdery deposits in his urine but we still do not know how his stone got larger. TAN, I brought up the Moduretic but she wasn't too confident about it however now that he already has a stone I'm not sure bringing it up again would be of any use. Because this is his third stone, we are really praying and trying as much as possible to either get it to stop growing but I realize that if it that is not the case, then it may be the end of the road.

At my final and desperate attempts, I have him on hydrangea extract, chanca piedra, and shilintong in addition to the potassium citrate and vitamin C. This week he started having some pain during urination/pooping and blood in his wee on and off, so he is on metacam and baytril as well. It seems that when he is passing a LARGE amount of droppings, he squeaks a bit in pain. The pain seems to a bit less frequent since starting the baytril and chanca piedra. Luckily, his tummy seems to be doing just fine with all of the supplements and his activity and appetite is still 100% normal (he actually LOVES the shilintong tablets). Wiebke, I did decrease his lettuce intake and switched him to butterhead lettuce and a tiny amount of green leaf lettuce, as the butterhead has a lot less calcium. I still am feeding him extra fluids and have been giving him purified water without any added minerals, incase my filter is not adequate enough.

He has an appointment tomorrow and we will finally be able to get an x-ray to see what is happening with the stone. I am a nervous reck, as I am not sure whether he has gotten another one or if it has gotten bigger. I can only hope and dream that his pain and blood is just because of an infection and the stone has magically broken or gotten smaller but I understand that that might not be realistic. Luckily, I live in an area where lithotripsy IS available for guinea pigs within a 1-2hr distance IF there seems to be an improvement with his stone. I do not want to give up on him if everything he has been on has been helping.

Please please please send us good healing vibes, and/or any advice. I do not want Herb to suffer, so I will do what is best for him but he is still so full of life, that I just feel awful thinking that he may not make it.

~Herbert and Mommy

 

[Herbadurp]

P.S. I should also add that she had a blood test done on him, which showed NO abnormally high levels of calcium.

 

[Wiebke]

The absorption of calcium is a complex process that is not yet properly researched and fully understood in guinea pigs. Water filtering, a low calcium diet can contribute massively in many cases, but not in all, unfortunately. Sometimes, stones or sludge can come back within weeks despite the owner providing the best of care.

My Cariad suddenly started growing a large stone within a matter of weeks, and from then on in needed regular bladder flushes from an experienced vet (if done wrongly, they can back up into the kidneys and kill) for the rest of her life although I did manage to gradually stretch the intervals. In her case, it was more a matter of managing the growth rather than stopping it. It is admittedly easier in sows.

I am sending you my vibes!

 

[Herbadurp]

The absorption of calcium is a complex process that is not yet properly researched and fully understood in guinea pigs. Water filtering, a low calcium diet can contribute massively in many cases, but not in all, unfortunately. Sometimes, stones or sludge can come back within weeks despite the owner providing the best of care.

My Cariad suddenly started growing a large stone within a matter of weeks, and from then on in needed regular bladder flushes from an experienced vet (if done wrongly, they can back up into the kidneys and kill) for the rest of her life although I did manage to gradually stretch the intervals. In her case, it was more a matter of managing the growth rather than stopping it. It is admittedly easier in sows.

I am sending you my vibes!

That sounds awful, I'm sorry to hear that your piggy had to go through that. It is nice to hear that she was able to stay with you for some time though.

Thank you for the vibes

 

[Wiebke]

That sounds awful, I'm sorry to hear that your piggy had to go through that. It is nice to hear that she was able to stay with you for some time though.

Thank you for the vibes

Cariad lived for nearly another two years to a respectable age of 5 years, and despite being tiny, she survived even an emergency spay just months after her 11mm bladder stone op with flying colours. I hope that she is guarding your poorly piggy from up there!

 

[TAN]

I am sorry to hear you have yet another stone - Bumble is still pain squeeking but his wee has been tested and is where the vet would like it - we have powdery deposits around the cage so the calcium is not staying in his bladder and are being weed out - Bumbles intermittent pain is caused by adhesions from all the surgery he has had (4 operations since October) and he is now having physio at the rehab centre with Rachel (Bumble will be 5 on 2nd July).It's a nightmare with them .Good luck