Bladder Stones

[olliesmom9]

Hello all,
I have a 5 year old male guinea pig named Ollie. Two days ago I went to clean his cage and I noticed that his urine was pink. I was really hoping that he has a uti and not stones, but yesterday we took him to the vet. The vet took an X-ray that confirmed that Ollie has two bladder stones The vet said that they are much too large for him to pass, and that there is a very small chance that they would get stuck and block his flow of urine. The vet did not seem very concerned about getting surgery, and gave us some antibiotics to help his bladder heal some. Do you guys think that there is any way that he can be fine with bladder stones in his bladder? The vet acted like they were fine as long as he did not stop urinating, but I am not sure how often this exotic vet sees piggies Please help, I do not know what to do since he is older and does not seem to be in pain.

 

[Wiebke]

Hello all,
I have a 5 year old male guinea pig named Ollie. Two days ago I went to clean his cage and I noticed that his urine was pink. I was really hoping that he has a uti and not stones, but yesterday we took him to the vet. The vet took an X-ray that confirmed that Ollie has two bladder stones The vet said that they are much too large for him to pass, and that there is a very small chance that they would get stuck and block his flow of urine. The vet did not seem very concerned about getting surgery, and gave us some antibiotics to help his bladder heal some. Do you guys think that there is any way that he can be fine with bladder stones in his bladder? The vet acted like they were fine as long as he did not stop urinating, but I am not sure how often this exotic vet sees piggies Please help, I do not know what to do since he is older and does not seem to be in pain.

Hi and welcome

Unfortunately, bladder stones don't go away by themselves; you really need an operative removal because the massive pain and damage to the bladder (bladder trauma) will only get worse and the stones will only continue to grow. Antibiotics will help with any bacterial cystitis as a result of the trauma but as long as the cause of the trauma is removed, this just in the way of a temporary quick fix that will not solve anything.
Has the vet given you any analgesic (painkiller cum anti-inflammatory for the bladder pain and inflammation)?

A bladder stone operation is a much more straight forward op than removing stones from the awkwad inglenook that boars have. Despite the location, bladder operations have pretty good recovery odds.
Alternative non-operative treatments have not stood the test of time, sadly.

Here is a list of recommended guinea pig vets in the USA; it would help us if you could please added your state.
Guinea Lynx :: GL's Vet List

Please review your diet, including water and pellets which can actually be greatest contributors of calcium. We have a chapter with specific recommendations for guinea pigs with longer term urinary tract problems.
You may also consider make use of glucosamine, to help replenish the beleaguered and badly scratched natural glucosamine coating off the walls of the urinary tract that prevents high corrosive urine from coming into direct contact with raw tissue.
Both measures are long term ones that can contribute to minimising the risk of a reoccurrance of stones and to contribute to support the inflamed bladder walls. They will take weeks to build up and come through and are neither a quick fix nor a replacement for any stone removal but they are crucial for the future wellbeing of your piggy.
Unless your diet is grossly overladen with calcium and oxalates, there are usually several other factors in play when it comes to the complex calcium absorption process; diet is the one angle where we can make a positive change.
Here is our diet link; we have a chapter on extra tweaks for guinea pigs with bladder problems based on our general diet, which looks at all food (and drink) groups that make up a piggy diet in detail: Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

I hope that this helps you?

PS: This forum is NOT part of social media, so it is not necessary to call for help and to use upper case to get our attention. Just state your problem in the title and the first of our specific section monitors will get back to you whenever one of us is coming on. The monitors have a badge in their signature; they are members whos e knowledge we fully trust.
Please appreciate that we are UK based (but with members from all over the world) and that we are all doing this for free in our free time.

 

[olliesmom9]

Hi and welcome

Unfortunately, bladder stones don't go away by themselves; you really need an operative removal because the massive pain and damage to the bladder (bladder trauma) will only get worse and the stones will only continue to grow. Antibiotics will help with any bacterial cystitis as a result of the trauma but as long as the cause of the trauma is removed, this just in the way of a temporary quick fix that will not solve anything.
Has the vet given you any analgesic (painkiller cum anti-inflammatory for the bladder pain and inflammation)?

A bladder stone operation is a much more straight forward op than removing stones from the awkwad inglenook that boars have. Despite the location, bladder operations have pretty good recovery odds.
Alternative non-operative treatments have not stood the test of time, sadly.

Here is a list of recommended guinea pig vets in the USA; it would help us if you could please added your state.
Guinea Lynx :: GL's Vet List

Please review your diet, including water and pellets which can actually be greatest contributors of calcium. We have a chapter with specific recommendations for guinea pigs with longer term urinary tract problems.
You may also consider make use of glucosamine, to help replenish the beleaguered and badly scratched natural glucosamine coating off the walls of the urinary tract that prevents high corrosive urine from coming into direct contact with raw tissue.
Both measures are long term ones that can contribute to minimising the risk of a reoccurrance of stones and to contribute to support the inflamed bladder walls. They will take weeks to build up and come through and are neither a quick fix nor a replacement for any stone removal but they are crucial for the future wellbeing of your piggy.
Unless your diet is grossly overladen with calcium and oxalates, there are usually several other factors in play when it comes to the complex calcium absorption process; diet is the one angle where we can make a positive change.
Here is our diet link; we have a chapter on extra tweaks for guinea pigs with bladder problems based on our general diet, which looks at all food (and drink) groups that make up a piggy diet in detail: Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Thank you so much for your reply,
I live in Texas, but not too horribly far from the Louisiana border. The vet gave us enrofloxacin 50mg/ml, which he said was to try to help the inflammation in his bladder go down. I am just really worried that he is going to pass in surgery if I can wait some time before he has to have it. I am just stumped because this is my baby’s first serious health issue He eats oxbow garden select adult guinea pig pellets, kaytee Timothy hay, romaine lettuce, and carrots. Occasionally I give him other veggies such as bell pepper.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you so much for your reply,
I live in Texas, but not too horribly far from the Louisiana border. The vet gave us enrofloxacin 50mg/ml, which he said was to try to help the inflammation in his bladder go down. I am just really worried that he is going to pass in surgery if I can wait some time before he has to have it. I am just stumped because this is my baby’s first serious health issue He eats oxbow garden select adult guinea pig pellets, kaytee Timothy hay, romaine lettuce, and carrots. Occasionally I give him other veggies such as bell pepper.

Hay and grass is the most important and needs to be the largest proportion of the daily food intake. It’s around 80% of the daily food intake.

Pellets are just 5% of the daily food intake. Please ensure Pellets are kept limited to just one tablespoon per day. They contain a lot of calcium (calcium contributing to bladder stone formation) and must never be a main part of their food.

A variety of veg should make up around 15%, around one cup of veg per day, of the daily food intake. Safe daily veggies include lettuce, coriander/cilantro, cucumber, bell pepper.

Carrots should not be fed regularly. They are far too high in sugar and are not good for piggies, they’re the equivalent of a chocolate bar. They should only be given as a very occasional treat (not more than once per week) and in very small amounts. It’s not recommended to feed root veg (such as carrots) to piggies with bladder issues

Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Antibiotics will kill any bacteria but as Wiebke has said, it won’t solve the stones. Surgery is really the only option.
Is he on painkillers? An anti-inflammatory painkiller such as metacam is needed and to help with inflammation.

 

[olliesmom9]

Hay and grass is the most important and needs to be the largest proportion of the daily food intake. It’s around 80% of the daily food intake.

Pellets are just 5% of the daily food intake. Please ensure Pellets are kept limited to just one tablespoon per day. They contain a lot of calcium (calcium contributing to bladder stone formation) and must never be a main part of their food.

A variety of veg should make up around 15%, around one cup of veg per day, of the daily food intake. Safe daily veggies include lettuce, coriander/cilantro, cucumber, bell pepper.

Carrots should not be fed regularly. They are far too high in sugar and are not good for piggies, they’re the equivalent of a chocolate bar. They should only be given as a very occasional treat (not more than once per week) and in very small amounts.

Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Thank you! Do you know anything about bladder stones and how soon they need to be removed?

 

[Piggies&buns]

You will need to talk to a vet, but you would want them removed as soon as possible.
As Wiebke has said, they wont get better on their own, will be painful and will continue to grow. If they do move and block the flow of urine, then it becomes a medical emergency.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you so much for your reply,
I live in Texas, but not too horribly far from the Louisiana border. The vet gave us enrofloxacin 50mg/ml, which he said was to try to help the inflammation in his bladder go down. I am just really worried that he is going to pass in surgery if I can wait some time before he has to have it. I am just stumped because this is my baby’s first serious health issue He eats oxbow garden select adult guinea pig pellets, kaytee Timothy hay, romaine lettuce, and carrots. Occasionally I give him other veggies such as bell pepper.

Hi

The longer you wait, the worse the stones will get. If you wait until your boy is starting to suddenly lose a lot of weight, then he will struggle a lot more with the recovery than now. If any stones get into the urethra, then you are suddenly dealing with a life or death emergency operation in a much more difficult area if a stone gets stuck in there.

Enrofloxacin is the active ingredient in baytril, which is used as the standard all-purpose antibiotic for guinea pigs. What weight in grams is your piggy and what dosage have you been prescribed?

Please be aware that even the best brands of no added calcium pellets contain more clacium weight by weight than the highest calcium veg, kale. So you really need to reduce that to 1 tablespoon per piggy per day and you really need to look at your veg diet.
Carrots are like feeding a block of chocolate on a daily basis and lettuce is not exactly extremely high in nutrients. Your current diet is too high in vitamin A, which builds up in the liver if fed too much. But is too low in plant based vitamin C and many other trace elements that are not found in pellets.
Any root veg as a food groups is not good for the oxalates aspect in the formation of bladder stones and should be off the menu for bladder stone piggies.

Please keep in mind that veg and pellets together replace the supplementary role of wild forage, which should make only about a quarter what your piggy eats in a day; the rest should be hay, hay and more hay with some fresh growing dog pee free grass added when it is in season and you can get some pesticide and chemicals free one. The more closer to forage and greener you can aim to keep your veg diet, the better.

We also strongly recommend to filter any water; even if your are not in a hard water area. Minerals and particles in the water can also contribute to the formation of stones.

By overfeeding pellets you also reduce the natural hay intake quite considerably with long term health and life-shortening consequences; hay and fresh grass fibre are what the digestive system is laid out for, as well as the high dental growth rate, especially for the grinding back teeth (the silica in grass fibre is very abrasive) - pellets are too soft as soon as they come into contact with saliva and contain much less fibre and mostly filler products than hay. What most owners also don't know that fresh growing grass is very high in vitamin C and is the reason why your piggies never had the need to make their own in the first place.

In my own long term experience, the diet changes I have made a decade ago have 1-2 years to the average healthy life span of my own piggies and they have also meant that I only have had one bladder stone case (in the wake of some major fresh food supply issues during the first lockdown) in all those years with around 50-60 piggies coming to live here since...

PLEASE take the time to read our diet guide - it is really worth it!
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

PS: I have had a stage of diet experimentation a decade ago when we knew a lot less about guinea pig siet in which I got the balance extactly wrong and ended up with a spate of bladder stones. All my piggies have survived their bladder ops; one even twice. And another one survived needing an full emergency spaying operation just 6 months after a removing an 11cm long stone despite being down to just 700g to live for another year and reach a decent life span despite her bad genetic background.

 

[olliesmom9]

You will need to talk to a vet, but you would want them removed as soon as possible.
As Wiebke has said, they wont get better on their own, will be painful and will continue to grow. If they do move and block the flow of urine, then it becomes a medical emergency.

When I talked with the vet yesterday he acted like it was no rush to get them removed since they are pretty large and should not be able to go into his urthreas. I am just concerned about the damage that they could do staying in there. Do you think that he could just keep talking antibiotics and be okay without surgery? I have also seen oxbow urinary support pills that I was curious as to if they would help him at all, not sure if any of you know about those or not.

 

[Piggies&buns]

When I talked with the vet yesterday he acted like it was no rush to get them removed since they are pretty large and should not be able to go into his urthreas. I am just concerned about the damage that they could do staying in there. Do you think that he could just keep talking antibiotics and be okay without surgery? I have also seen oxbow urinary support pills that I was curious as to if they would help him at all, not sure if any of you know about those or not.

Wiebke’s full explanation above will help you here - no, he will not be ok just to take antibiotics and leave the stones inside. Urinary supplements or antibiotics are not going to do anything for the stones already there, they will continue to damage his bladder, cause pain and get bigger.
I can only encourage you to seek an opinion from an experienced vet and have the stones removed

 

[olliesmom9]

Hi

The longer you wait, the worse the stones will get. If you wait until your boy is starting to suddenly lose a lot of weight, then he will struggle a lot more with the recovery than now. If any stones get into the urethra, then you are suddenly dealing with a life or death emergency operation in a much more difficult area if a stone gets stuck in there.

Enrofloxacin is the active ingredient in baytril, which is used as the standard all-purpose antibiotic for guinea pigs. What weight in grams is your piggy and what dosage have you been prescribed?

Please be aware that even the best brands of no added calcium pellets contain more clacium weight by weight than the highest calcium veg, kale. So you really need to reduce that to 1 tablespoon per piggy per day and you really need to look at your veg diet.
Carrots are like feeding a block of chocolate on a daily basis and lettuce is not exactly extremely high in nutrients. Your current diet is too high in vitamin A, which builds up in the liver if fed too much. But is too low in plant based vitamin C and many other trace elements that are not found in pellets.
Any root veg as a food groups is not good for the oxalates aspect in the formation of bladder stones and should be off the menu for bladder stone piggies.

Please keep in mind that veg and pellets together replace the supplementary role of wild forage, which should make only about a quarter what your piggy eats in a day; the rest should be hay, hay and more hay with some fresh growing dog pee free grass added when it is in season and you can get some pesticide and chemicals free one. The more closer to forage and greener you can aim to keep your veg diet, the better.

We also strongly recommend to filter any water; even if your are not in a hard water area. Minerals and particles in the water can also contribute to the formation of stones.

By overfeeding pellets you also reduce the natural hay intake quite considerably with long term health and life-shortening consequences; hay and fresh grass fibre are what the digestive system is laid out for, as well as the high dental growth rate, especially for the grinding back teeth (the silica in grass fibre is very abrasive) - pellets are too soft as soon as they come into contact with saliva and contain much less fibre and mostly filler products than hay. What most owners also don't know that fresh growing grass is very high in vitamin C and is the reason why your piggies never had the need to make their own in the first place.

In my own long term experience, the diet changes I have made a decade ago have 1-2 years to the average healthy life span of my own piggies and they have also meant that I only have had one bladder stone case (in the wake of some major fresh food supply issues during the first lockdown) in all those years with around 50-60 piggies coming to live here since...

PLEASE take the time to read our diet guide - it is really worth it!
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

PS: I have had a stage of diet experimentation a decade ago when we knew a lot less about guinea pig siet in which I got the balance extactly wrong and ended up with a spate of bladder stones. All my piggies have survived their bladder ops; one even twice. And another one survived needed an emergency spaying operation just 6 months after a removing an 11cm long stone despite being down to just 700g.

Thank you so much for your help, he weighs 915g and was prescribed the take 0.2 ml twice a day. He has always been a pretty lean piggy, so he isn’t skinnier than usual. How old were your piggies when they had surgery, if you remember? What did you do as far as post-op care?

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you so much for your help, he weighs 915g and was prescribed the take 0.2 ml twice a day. He has always been a pretty lean piggy, so he isn’t skinnier than usual. How old were your piggies when they had surgery, if you remember? What did you do as far as post-op care?

Hi - as expected, the dosage is on the low and rather cautious side.
For a 1 kg piggy with bladder problems 0.4 ml twice daily is usually prescribed (only that many vets are now using a containing sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim (commonly better known under the brand name bactrim in the USA) for urinary tract problems; especially as it is increasingly officially licensed for guinea pigs in more and more contries.

My bladder piggies were between 2-5 years of age. I have lost one piggy to extreme bladder damage after her second operation but she had a very unusual variety of stones which was more like an irregular conglomerate of little cystals that I have seen on here only once in the intervening 15 years. And we see our fair share of stone piggies passing through this section.
I live in an especially bad area that is known for being a bit of a bladder stone hot spot so getting it right for my own piggies has not been quite easy. But 8 years since without stones and coming up to 10 years with just a single stone means that I have cracked getting the balance right for myself.

Please look at the recommended vets link in my first post and see whether you can get to one of them.
In addition, here are our practical post-op home care and our one stop emergency care guide links, which you may also want to bookmark:
Tips For Post-operative Care
Emergency, Crisis and Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment


[HEADING=1][/HEADING]

 

[olliesmom9]

Hi - as expected, the dosage is on the low and rather cautious side.
For a 1 kg piggy with bladder problems 0.4 ml twice daily is usually prescribed (only that many vets are now using a containing sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim (commonly better known under the brand name bactrim in the USA) for urinary tract problems; especially as it is increasingly officially licensed for guinea pigs in more and more contries.

My bladder piggies were between 2-5 years of age. I have lost one piggy to extreme bladder damage after her second operation but she had a very unusual variety of stones which was more like an irregular conglomerate of little cystals that I have seen on here only once in the intervening 15 years. And we see our fair share of stone piggies passing through this section.
I live in an especially bad area that is known for being a bit of a bladder stone hot spot so getting it right for my own piggies has not been quite easy. But 8 years since without stones and coming up to 10 years with just a single stone means that I have cracked getting the balance right for myself.

Please look at the recommended vets link in my first post and see whether you can get to one of them.
In addition, here are our practical post-op home care and our one stop emergency care guide links, which you may also want to bookmark:
Tips For Post-operative Care
Emergency, Crisis and Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment


[HEADING=1][/HEADING]

Thank you so much for your help, I will try to take in everything that you guys have recommended

 

[Free Ranger]

He is 5 and it is natural that you are weighing up his op against his quality of life. My vet had an 'old boar' herself that she considered too old for surgery (although I'm not sure of his age in years). Her approach was to try and keep him pain free with meloxicam medicines. They don't all survive surgery and she told me that unfortunately some of those that make it can reform the stones in a matter of weeks. The diet changes can really help (low pellets/soft water) but if there have been some age-related metabolic changes that somehow triggered the stones to form these would still be there. We can't tell which group your lovely boy would fall into - even vets can't predict it.

Some piggies seem very old at 5 and some seem much more active. Stones don't go away on their own and they will be banging around in there causing him problems. But if the antibiotics can alleviate the pain he has while peeing he will be much happier and with painkiller he'll be more comfortable generally and have more chance to regain any weight he's lost (weight loss can be a symptom of pain). If it became an emergency I would no doubt go in for the op rather than just say pts - that's my 5 year old George look at you from the photo. From a vet's point of view a fit pig stands a better chance under general anaesthetic but it's so hard as an owner to make that call at a point when they seem to be doing OK. I think in the short term I'd be monitoring his weight and trying to get him pain-free, fit and stable... then I'd make the call about surgery x

 

[olliesmom9]

He is 5 and it is natural that you are weighing up his op against his quality of life. My vet had an 'old boar' herself that she considered too old for surgery (although I'm not sure of his age in years). Her approach was to try and keep him pain free with meloxicam medicines. They don't all survive surgery and she told me that unfortunately some of those that make it can reform the stones in a matter of weeks. The diet changes can really help (low pellets/soft water) but if there have been some age-related metabolic changes that somehow triggered the stones to form these would still be there. We can't tell which group your lovely boy would fall into - even vets can't predict it.

Some piggies seem very old at 5 and some seem much more active. Stones don't go away on their own and they will be banging around in there causing him problems. But if the antibiotics can alleviate the pain he has while peeing he will be much happier and with painkiller he'll be more comfortable generally and have more chance to regain any weight he's lost (weight loss can be a symptom of pain). If it became an emergency I would no doubt go in for the op rather than just say pts - that's my 5 year old George look at you from the photo. From a vet's point of view a fit pig stands a better chance under general anaesthetic but it's so hard as an owner to make that call at a point when they seem to be doing OK. I think in the short term I'd be monitoring his weight and trying to get him pain-free, fit and stable... then I'd make the call about surgery x

Hello,
Thank you so much for your reply, I’m just so worried about making the wrong decision. I am just so torn on how I would feel if he did not make it through surgery, when he could’ve lived for a few more months, or even years, on medicine and a strict diet. I am also very worried, as you said, about him developing more right after his surgery. I feel like at that point, there would not really be many options, because it would be too close and too much on his body to have another surgery. I think that I am going to try and hold off as long as I can until I can see that he is in pain, not eating, or not going to the restroom. He is a pretty active pig even though he is 5 years old, and he is the sweetest boy. What veggies do you feed your boy?

 

[Free Ranger]

Mine get a mix as there are 3 of them and they all like different things. But George is very keen on cucumber, bell pepper and lettuce and he'll get these daily. He has no trouble digesting brassicas so a bit of cabbage leaf, cauliflower leaf or broccoli once or twice a week, and the odd slice of carrot or celery. Apple twice a week but only a tiny bit - like 2cm cube. Mine are a bit funny with the green beans - when they are in season in the UK they are very keen but at this time of year when they are imported they are not bothered. Spinach and parsley are rare treats - a few leaves or sprigs on occasion. Nobody likes cilantro!

Their favorite thing in the whole world is fresh grass. Mine are mainly indoor and we do give a LOT of grass all year round - we are lucky to have access to green areas (without dog walkers!) to pick it and they get really excited. Louise runs in circles because she doesn't know what to do with herself! I personally think this must do them so much good because it's what they've evolved to eat... they get pretty fat in springtime though. Fresh grass counts as wet food. If we can find a few dandelion leaves or other safe wild plants that goes in too. Young raspberry leaves (older ones are a bit spikey) are popular. Last year they realised they liked mint and lemon balm: this has grown in patches all over the garden for years unmolested but suddenly they stripped the lot!

I also use low Calcium 'soft' water as we live in a hard water area. I started to limit my pellets since being on the forum - they now get about 1.5 tbsp per pig each evening although fluffy Louise takes more than her share and has had gritty pee sometimes as a result. I dropped the amount gradually as I was a bowl filler at first. Now the idea is that they get veggies in the morning, then fresh hay, then a grass mountain and that's it till the evening. Then poop-pick, un-bung George (impaction) and check his teeth for hair (arthritis - he nibbles), more hay and new pellets. These are usually gone by the next afternoon if I've judged it right. I've recently started to give George and Louise a glucosamine 'lozenge' (oxbow joint support) each in the hopes that it will deter joint and/or bladder trouble. We shall see if it makes any difference. George also gets meloxicam twice a day for his swollen joints - he's still tootling about so he's not too bad yet. I've had enough stones in the past to dread them. I really feel for you. The only boar I put through a bladder stone op made it through surgery but died within hours of coming home from the shock of the experience. He was an older rescue so I didn't know his history and he was in a lot of pain when we went to the vet so there was only really one choice for him at that point. I was so upset but guilt didn't really come into it so much because I felt I had to give him the chance of surgery rather than pts. But perhaps if we'd been able to catch things earlier so he hadn't deteriorated so much he might have made it. It's impossible to know.

They way I see it, you love him so much that whichever way you choose you'll have his best interests at heart. If he picks up and manages only another few months he won't judge you. If he goes in for surgery he could maybe make a couple more years or he might not make it home - that's the gamble and you will want to speak honestly to your vet about their success rates and prognosis. It's just medicate, watch and weigh for now to help him through his infection. If he has a friend you can sometimes tell if he's feeling unwell or low because the friend will cuddle up to him much more than usual. They know before we do

 

[olliesmom9]

Mine get a mix as there are 3 of them and they all like different things. But George is very keen on cucumber, bell pepper and lettuce and he'll get these daily. He has no trouble digesting brassicas so a bit of cabbage leaf, cauliflower leaf or broccoli once or twice a week, and the odd slice of carrot or celery. Apple twice a week but only a tiny bit - like 2cm cube. Mine are a bit funny with the green beans - when they are in season in the UK they are very keen but at this time of year when they are imported they are not bothered. Spinach and parsley are rare treats - a few leaves or sprigs on occasion. Nobody likes cilantro!

Their favorite thing in the whole world is fresh grass. Mine are mainly indoor and we do give a LOT of grass all year round - we are lucky to have access to green areas (without dog walkers!) to pick it and they get really excited. Louise runs in circles because she doesn't know what to do with herself! I personally think this must do them so much good because it's what they've evolved to eat... they get pretty fat in springtime though. Fresh grass counts as wet food. If we can find a few dandelion leaves or other safe wild plants that goes in too. Young raspberry leaves (older ones are a bit spikey) are popular. Last year they realised they liked mint and lemon balm: this has grown in patches all over the garden for years unmolested but suddenly they stripped the lot!

I also use low Calcium 'soft' water as we live in a hard water area. I started to limit my pellets since being on the forum - they now get about 1.5 tbsp per pig each evening although fluffy Louise takes more than her share and has had gritty pee sometimes as a result. I dropped the amount gradually as I was a bowl filler at first. Now the idea is that they get veggies in the morning, then fresh hay, then a grass mountain and that's it till the evening. Then poop-pick, un-bung George (impaction) and check his teeth for hair (arthritis - he nibbles), more hay and new pellets. These are usually gone by the next afternoon if I've judged it right. I've recently started to give George and Louise a glucosamine 'lozenge' (oxbow joint support) each in the hopes that it will deter joint and/or bladder trouble. We shall see if it makes any difference. George also gets meloxicam twice a day for his swollen joints - he's still tootling about so he's not too bad yet. I've had enough stones in the past to dread them. I really feel for you. The only boar I put through a bladder stone op made it through surgery but died within hours of coming home from the shock of the experience. He was an older rescue so I didn't know his history and he was in a lot of pain when we went to the vet so there was only really one choice for him at that point. I was so upset but guilt didn't really come into it so much because I felt I had to give him the chance of surgery rather than pts. But perhaps if we'd been able to catch things earlier so he hadn't deteriorated so much he might have made it. It's impossible to know.

They way I see it, you love him so much that whichever way you choose you'll have his best interests at heart. If he picks up and manages only another few months he won't judge you. If he goes in for surgery he could maybe make a couple more years or he might not make it home - that's the gamble and you will want to speak honestly to your vet about their success rates and prognosis. It's just medicate, watch and weigh for now to help him through his infection. If he has a friend you can sometimes tell if he's feeling unwell or low because the friend will cuddle up to him much more than usual. They know before we do

Hello,
Thank you so much for your reply. I’m sorry for your loss I will be limiting his pellets from now on, I probably give him too much after reading all of your responses. What is the longest one of your bladder stone piggies have lived without surgery? Again, thank you so much for your great response

 

[Free Ranger]

Well all the others were sows which made things more straightforward as the urethra is wider. One suddenly passed a stone out of the blue and she then was given strong opioid painkiller and fluids under the skin to make her pee loads and clear out the bladder. Another had to have a big spikey one extracted with tweezers - physically she was fine but she took a while to get over it psychologically and I don't blame her! They were both about 2 or 3 and they didn't get any more. But the only boar was poor Panda - maybe 4 years but we didn't know - started to pee blood and have pain so an op was his only chance.

But the vet who talked about her boar gave the impression he'd been going for months rather than weeks as it was an ongoing thing. She knew it would be the end of him eventually - if nothing else gave out first. He took daily (1.5mg/ml) meloxicam to make sure he was comfortable... the same stuff George will take for the rest of his life for arthritis. Are Ollie's antibiotics kicking in yet? I'd be monitoring his weight to make sure he maintains (or increases!) which will be a good indicator that he's feeling comfortable... x

 

[olliesmom9]

Well all the others were sows which made things more straightforward as the urethra is wider. One suddenly passed a stone out of the blue and she then was given strong opioid painkiller and fluids under the skin to make her pee loads and clear out the bladder. Another had to have a big spikey one extracted with tweezers - physically she was fine but she took a while to get over it psychologically and I don't blame her! They were both about 2 or 3 and they didn't get any more. But the only boar was poor Panda - maybe 4 years but we didn't know - started to pee blood and have pain so an op was his only chance.

But the vet who talked about her boar gave the impression he'd been going for months rather than weeks as it was an ongoing thing. She knew it would be the end of him eventually - if nothing else gave out first. He took daily (1.5mg/ml) meloxicam to make sure he was comfortable... the same stuff George will take for the rest of his life for arthritis. Are Ollie's antibiotics kicking in yet? I'd be monitoring his weight to make sure he maintains (or increases!) which will be a good indicator that he's feeling comfortable... x

Hi,
That is awesome that the sows were able to pass their stones! I wish poor ollie could His pee is less bloody tonight, but he is not eating as much as usual. He is only eating a very small amount of pellets, but he is eating vegtables and hay. I think that the medicine may be making him lose his appetite Do you have any knowledge about syringe feeding? I am trying to do some research on it, because the last thing I want is for his gi system to shut down if he stops eating. Thanks!

 

[olliesmom9]

Hello, my 5 year old guinea pig has been on antibiotics for three days, and today he has not been eating much. I have tried to force feed him and he fights against it so hard that I am not able to. Should I stop his antibiotics? His vet does not open until Monday and I don’t know what to do. I am worried about him getting gi stasis from not eating enough. He is still eating some hay and veggies. He is also less active than usual, and I think it’s all because of the antibiotics. If I were to stop them, how long would it take for his appetite to come back?

 

[RedLoredAmazon]

I'm so sorry to hear about you and your piggy struggling. I can't give any advice as I haven't been through that yet. Most of the members here are in the UK so they will be on the forum later. Hoping for the best for your sweet piggy!

 

[olliesmom9]

I'm so sorry to hear about you and your piggy struggling. I can't give any advice as I haven't been through that yet. Most of the members here are in the UK so they will be on the forum later. Hoping for the best for your sweet piggy!

Thank you! I am struggling so hard on deciding what to do. Have you ever had a piggie with bladder stones? If so, were they male or female, and did they have surgery or make it through?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Antibiotics can upset their system - the antibiotics kill the good gut bacteria as well as the bad illness causing bacteria. Some antibiotics are worse affecting their appetites than others.

You must step in and syringe feed mushed pellets or a fibre rich recovery feed (critical care, Emeraid etc) to replace the hay piggy is not eating for himself. You must also weigh him daily so you can make sure you are getting enough syringe feed in.
Its also recommended that a piggy on antibiotics is given a probiotic as this can help. In the US the probiotic often used is BeneBac. It must be given 1-2 hours before or after an antibiotic dose.
Or take the very fresh, just produced poops from a healthy companion (put companion in a box with some snacks and wait for the poops to be produced) soak the poops in water and then syringe the water to your poorly piggy. This replaces the gut micro biome in the poorly piggy. The poops must be very fresh very and used within five minutes of being produced otherwise the bacteria starts to die off.

But you should never stop antibiotics without consulting a vet. Doing so will allow the illness causing bacteria to take off again and he won’t get better. He won’t necessarily get his appetite back if you stop antibiotics because whatever is the original illness is still there.

Please keep all information about the same subject to your original post. We can offer ongoing support on a medical issue but if you start a new post then we don’t have any background information on the original medical issue.
I’ll see if I can find any previous health post you have made and merge with this new post as it stands we don’t have background information and previous vet advice as to why your piggy is on antibiotics.

Not Eating, Weight Loss And The Importance Of Syringe Feeding Fibre
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide

Threads now merged - you can find this thread by clicking find my threads at the top.

 

[RedLoredAmazon]

Thank you! I am struggling so hard on deciding what to do. Have you ever had a piggie with bladder stones? If so, were they male or female, and did they have surgery or make it through?

No, I haven't had a piggy with bladder stones or bladder issues at this point in time. Best of luck with your piggy.

 

[Wiebke]

Hello, my 5 year old guinea pig has been on antibiotics for three days, and today he has not been eating much. I have tried to force feed him and he fights against it so hard that I am not able to. Should I stop his antibiotics? His vet does not open until Monday and I don’t know what to do. I am worried about him getting gi stasis from not eating enough. He is still eating some hay and veggies. He is also less active than usual, and I think it’s all because of the antibiotics. If I were to stop them, how long would it take for his appetite to come back?

Hi

Please persist and continue with the feeding support every two hours during the day and once during the night. You are aiming at 40-60 ml in 24 hours or as close as your can come. As long as you get food into him, the less the more often, there is no risk of GI stasis because that keeps the gut going enough. Only if you stop feeding altogether will the gut slow and eventually stop and the body will close down.

Baytril (or any antibiotic at that) can dampen or kill the appetite if the also affect the gut microbiome more majorly). Some piggies are more sensititive than others.

Please follow the tips in these two links here:
Not Eating, Weight Loss And The Importance Of Syringe Feeding Fibre
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide (step-by-step how to guide for inexperienced owners)

Please feed hay fibre over veg fibre; mushed up pellets (with the syringe tip cut off with scissors just below where the syringe widens to allow the rougher pellet fibre to come through but still hold the syringe plunger in). Too much veg fibre can upset the microbiome further as it is geared towards dealing with grass/hay fibre first and foremost as the basis of their diet (over three quarters of the daily food intake should be hay or hay and fresh grass).

It is always a struggle but here are two ways you can hold an uncooperative piggy that is feeling very uncomfy in their belly that work for most of our members who are faced with a piggy fighting the syringe:

Controlling the head and mouth via gentle but form pressure on the jaw joint:


Controlling your piggy with your upper body and one hand to control your piggy's head and upper body (make sure that the front feet have no purchase) so you have the other hand free for feeding.


You can also make use of our piggy whispering techniques if you combine piggy kisses with gentle but firm assertions of your authority - always start and end with a 'kiss' to reassure your piggy. Plenty of fuss and sympathy also helps.
Understanding Prey Animal Instincts, Guinea Pig Whispering and Cuddling Tips

Make sure that your piggy cannot injure themselves in a freak blind jump.

Here are tips for probiotics and improvised but effective live cavy gut microbiome support if done properly to suoort the digestive gut bacteria: Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links

PS: Please switch to using 'syringe fedding' rather than 'force feeding' because the latter can potentially kill your piggy if any feed is just squirted into the mouth and is getting into lungs where it can cause aspiration and a fatal pneumonia. ALWAYS make sure that you only give as much as your piggy can hold in their mouth (about 0.1-0.3 ml depending on the size and strength of your piggy) and ALWAYS wait that the first lot has gone down before giving more. Also offer water by syringe, as much as your piggy is willing to take.

I hope that this helps? Stopping the antibiotic on your own will not help the illness and the appetite will not immediate come back, either. You can contact your vet clinic tomorrow but right now, concentrate on getting your piggy through this course of antibiotics with your home care feeding support. This is every bit as important as any medication.

All the best. Most of us have been there (the long term owners more than once and sometimes through more than one course of antibiotic when it was the only alternative to euthanasia in inoperable piggies), so we feel for you. Practice does help. If your piggy realises that you are determined and not willing to let them get away with it, they will become a bit more cooperative. Aim to get at least 5-10 ml in with each sitting.

 

[olliesmom9]

Hi

Please persist and continue with the feeding support every two hours during the day and once during the night. You are aiming at 40-60 ml in 24 hours or as close as your can come. As long as you get food into him, the less the more often, there is no risk of GI stasis because that keeps the gut going enough. Only if you stop feeding altogether will the gut slow and eventually stop and the body will close down.

Baytril (or any antibiotic at that) can dampen or kill the appetite if the also affect the gut microbiome more majorly). Some piggies are more sensititive than others.

Please follow the tips in these two links here:
Not Eating, Weight Loss And The Importance Of Syringe Feeding Fibre
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide (step-by-step how to guide for inexperienced owners)

Please feed hay fibre over veg fibre; mushed up pellets (with the syringe tip cut off with scissors just below where the syringe widens to allow the rougher pellet fibre to come through but still hold the syringe plunger in). Too much veg fibre can upset the microbiome further as it is geared towards dealing with grass/hay fibre first and foremost as the basis of their diet (over three quarters of the daily food intake should be hay or hay and fresh grass).

It is always a struggle but here are two ways you can hold an uncooperative piggy that is feeling very uncomfy in their belly that work for most of our members who are faced with a piggy fighting the syringe:

Controlling the head and mouth via gentle but form pressure on the jaw joint:
View attachment 197123 View attachment 197124

Controlling your piggy with your upper body and one hand to control your piggy's head and upper body (make sure that the front feet have no purchase) so you have the other hand free for feeding.
View attachment 197125

You can also make use of our piggy whispering techniques if you combine piggy kisses with gentle but firm assertions of your authority - always start and end with a 'kiss' to reassure your piggy. Plenty of fuss and sympathy also helps.
Understanding Prey Animal Instincts, Guinea Pig Whispering and Cuddling Tips

Make sure that your piggy cannot injure themselves in a freak blind jump.

Here are tips for probiotics and improvised but effective live cavy gut microbiome support if done properly to suoort the digestive gut bacteria: Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links

PS: Please switch to using 'syringe fedding' rather than 'force feeding' because the latter can potentially kill your piggy if any feed is just squirted into the mouth and is getting into lungs where it can cause aspiration and a fatal pneumonia. ALWAYS make sure that you only give as much as your piggy can hold in their mouth (about 0.1-0.3 ml depending on the size and strength of your piggy) and ALWAYS wait that the first lot has gone down before giving more. Also offer water by syringe, as much as your piggy is willing to take.

I hope that this helps? Stopping the antibiotic on your own will not help the illness and the appetite will not immediate come back, either. You can contact your vet clinic tomorrow but right now, concentrate on getting your piggy through this course of antibiotics with your home care feeding support. This is every bit as important as any medication.

All the best. Most of us have been there (the long term owners more than once and sometimes through more than one course of antibiotic when it was the only alternative to euthanasia in inoperable piggies), so we feel for you. Practice does help. If your piggy realises that you are determined and not willing to let them get away with it, they will become a bit more cooperative. Aim to get at least 5-10 ml in with each sitting.

Thank you so much for your info xx

 

[Free Ranger]

We've never had a problem with Baytril antibiotic dampening appetite but if they are feeling poorly that doesn't help. Our ground food is called 'Recovery' but the most popular has been Critical Care 'fine grind' which is papaya flavoured and in a brown packet (the normal CC in a green packet is aniseed flavour and even my healthy pigs are not keen on that!) or I do mushed pellets in water. I don't syringe water myself anymore - I just make the slurry sloppier. You'll se a difference in his pooping a day or two after changes to his eating as the poops run a bit behind.

It is very hard but stick with the antibiotic to complete the course or the infection just reestablishes. Sometimes I've swaddled piggy in a towel with their head popping out and then they can't run away so they fight less (although there can be a turtle-effect if they withdraw into the towel) and just small amounts each time. It can take ages but I sit on the floor by the cage with the radio on quietly and take my time so as not to frighten them by overloading. One of my girls was existing only on Recovery food but she wasn't comfortable with more than 40ml per day - support fed pigs that can eat other things don't need so much but the only way to know is by monitoring the weight and the poops.

Painkiller (meloxicam) helps to maintain appetite if loss is caused by pain - also it's much nicer tasting than bitter Baytril so I do the Ab quickly followed by the sweet painkiller dose. If he deteriorates further over then next couple of days I think you're looking at the surgery as his best chance. Antibiotics can kick in after 24 hours but can take 2 or 3 days to show any difference. We've had high doses for 5 days or low doses for a few weeks to make sure everything is cleared and it's important to complete the dose unless the vet says to change to a different antibiotic. One of my pigs was the same after 4 days so I went back to the vet on day 5 for a different one and that made a difference for her.

Good luck Ollie x

 

[olliesmom9]

We've never had a problem with Baytril antibiotic dampening appetite but if they are feeling poorly that doesn't help. Our ground food is called 'Recovery' but the most popular has been Critical Care 'fine grind' which is papaya flavoured and in a brown packet (the normal CC in a green packet is aniseed flavour and even my healthy pigs are not keen on that!) or I do mushed pellets in water. I don't syringe water myself anymore - I just make the slurry sloppier. You'll se a difference in his pooping a day or two after changes to his eating as the poops run a bit behind.

It is very hard but stick with the antibiotic to complete the course or the infection just reestablishes. Sometimes I've swaddled piggy in a towel with their head popping out and then they can't run away so they fight less (although there can be a turtle-effect if they withdraw into the towel) and just small amounts each time. It can take ages but I sit on the floor by the cage with the radio on quietly and take my time so as not to frighten them by overloading. One of my girls was existing only on Recovery food but she wasn't comfortable with more than 40ml per day - support fed pigs that can eat other things don't need so much but the only way to know is by monitoring the weight and the poops.

Painkiller (meloxicam) helps to maintain appetite if loss is caused by pain - also it's much nicer tasting than bitter Baytril so I do the Ab quickly followed by the sweet painkiller dose. If he deteriorates further over then next couple of days I think you're looking at the surgery as his best chance. Antibiotics can kick in after 24 hours but can take 2 or 3 days to show any difference. We've had high doses for 5 days or low doses for a few weeks to make sure everything is cleared and it's important to complete the dose unless the vet says to change to a different antibiotic. One of my pigs was the same after 4 days so I went back to the vet on day 5 for a different one and that made a difference for her.

Good luck Ollie x

Hello,
After we stopped his antibiotics he went completely back to normal within about two days. If his pee turns bloody again, we are going to start giving them to him again. He literally would not hardly eat or drink whenever he was on the antibiotics. I also got some of the fine ground critical care just in case he has to start antibiotics again. For now I’m just cleaning his cage extra well (3 times a day) to keep him from getting any UTIs or other issues. He’s eating the oxbow urinary tablets well, and I think that are already helping him feel better. Thank you for responding!
Xx

 

[poggle]

I'm not a vet or a doctor but my understanding is that antibiotics are most effective where the full course is completed.

If you stop a course early, the problem-causing bacteria may have not been completely wiped out and they will simply multiply again until they are back at a level to cause problems. As a bonus they may now be more resistant to the antibiotic you were using, next time requiring a higher dose or a different antibiotic altogether.

If you restart a 'paused' course of antibiotics it is again unlikely that the partial course will be enough to kill all the problem bacteria, and you are left in the same position as above regarding recurrence and increased resistance. Rather than restarting, I believe you would need to see a vet again for proper assessment and a prescription for a full course of antibiotics of the appropriate strength.

I do appreciate though that having to choose between treating an infection properly and your pet eating must be a very difficult position to be in. It's great that you're preparing against recurrence and you've been given some fab tricks by people already, but please do be sure to go to a vet if the problem returns. All the best for your little Ollie

 

[olliesmom9]

I'm not a vet or a doctor but my understanding is that antibiotics are most effective where the full course is completed.

If you stop a course early, the problem-causing bacteria may have not been completely wiped out and they will simply multiply again until they are back at a level to cause problems. As a bonus they may now be more resistant to the antibiotic you were using, next time requiring a higher dose or a different antibiotic altogether.

If you restart a 'paused' course of antibiotics it is again unlikely that the partial course will be enough to kill all the problem bacteria, and you are left in the same position as above regarding recurrence and increased resistance. Rather than restarting, I believe you would need to see a vet again for proper assessment and a prescription for a full course of antibiotics of the appropriate strength.

I do appreciate though that having to choose between treating an infection properly and your pet eating must be a very difficult position to be in. It's great that you're preparing against recurrence and you've been given some fab tricks by people already, but please do be sure to go to a vet if the problem returns. All the best for your little Ollie

Thank you!xx If his urine becomes bloody again, we will call the vet and see if there are any other medicines that wouldn’t hurt his appetite so bad. He is doing great as of yesterday, so I’m really hoping he will stay that way

 

[Free Ranger]

There are other antibiotics but Baytril is always the first one you get prescribed... unless you can tell them about Ollie's bad experience of it. Another antibiotic might affect him the same way or it might not. But if he's eating now and he's happy that's great!