Bladder stones

[thecobra2]

Hello. One of my male guinea pigs had a bladder stone removed 4 months ago and recently started showing signs of pain and blood in his urine. I took him to the vet and now he has 2 new bladder stones. Pretty shocked. The vet figures it is a genetic problem.

He was already on meds to treat a UTI. His meds just ended today. After his first bladder stone I made some changes. I reduced his vegetable intake and switched to green lettuce, green pepper, coriander and cucumber daily. Approximately I cup is given once a day. I also gave them unlimited timothy hay based pellets (this might be the issue), 2 different water sources (I give them only bottled water) and unlimited access to both 1st and 2nd cut tomothy hay. They also have get some pasture oat hay (read that this is low calcium). I also give them each a science Selective Urinary Care biscuit.

After finding out he has 2 new bladder stones I have already made some changes. I have switched to only giving 1 tablespoon of pellets per day per pig, I will be syringe feeding him water at least 3 times a day 5ml at a time. I am considering purchasing a reverse osmosis filter.....is this a good idea? I have also increased cage cleanings to one big cleaning every morning and 3 times a day spot cleaning.

Anything else I can do? I have read that pellets might be the issue? Possibly the water? Too many vegetables? Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Mrs Tiggy Winkle]

Bumping

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry to hear of this

Too many pellets and hard water are major contributors to calcium into the diet.

Vegetables - it rather depends what veg you were feeding. Some veg is higher calcium than others (kale, parsley, spinach for example are all high calcium) but the benefit of veg is that they bring water into the diet. Increased fluid intake is what helps to keep the bladder flushing flush through.

This is why I feed more than one cup of veg to my piggies, they also get lots of fresh grass, but I do not give any pellets at all. No pellets in their diet means I have more leeway with their veg and I can feed higher calcium veg to make sure they have some intake but without the concern of it being too much.

There is always a balance to be had though - cutting calcium intake down too low is just as bad as it being too high.

Of course if your vet thinks his stones are genetic then, of course and unfortunately, that isn’t something you can do anything about.
You should of course follow the diet recommendations anyway

I hope he is ok

Wiebke's Guide to Pees and Stones
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

 

[thecobra2]

I have been feeding him green lettuce, green pepper, coriander, and cucumber daily. I used to give them some carrot and celery once or twice a week but cut those out. I have also started syringe feeding him 5ml or water 4x a day to help with fluid intake. I have reduced pellets to one tablespoon a day and switched to reverse osmosis filtered water. I also ordered some new noodle mats for high traffic areas to hopefully reduce the amount of poop/urine he is sitting in.

Not sure what else to do? I have considered eliminating pellets but would need to do additional research. Any other suggestions would be appreciated....I will read through that guide you posted. I appreciate the info.

 

[Mrs Tiggy Winkle]

Definitely read the guide and then again! There's lots of info in there. Pellets are not a necessary part of guinea diet. That will be explained in the guide

 

[Piggies&buns]

The only thing owners have any control over is the diet and you’re doing all you can there.

I have cut out pellets and I feed romaine lettuce, cucumber, pepper and coriander daily. They also get fresh grass and fresh safe weeds every day in summer. In winter the fresh weeds are replaced with dried forage.

it’s definitely good to reduce the wet bedding as sitting in damp areas can cause urine scald.

Is the vet going to remove the new stones that have formed?

 

[thecobra2]

Yeah the plan is to remove the stones but he is worried about doing another surgery so close to the previous one. Right now he seems to be doing pretty good. I weigh him daily and his weight is consistent, he is eating and pooping normally. Also, he only has minimal pain when going to the bathroom so his situation has improved in the last week. However, regardless he will still surgery in the very near future and will be taking him to the vet next week unless his situation worsens.

I was just reading about Sherwood Urinary support tablets and some people claim that they have dissolved bladdet stoned. Does anyone have any experience with these?

 

[RosieLily]

I am so sorry. I don't have bladder stone experience with boy pigs, but my girl had a 11mm stone removed over a year ago after life long problems with calcium and sludge.

We have had no problems since the surgery, the stone was removed and her bladder was flushed. Now everyday we have a little "happy hour" ritual - I mix glucosamine with lots of water and some critical care for flavour (Rosie finds glucosamine to taste VERY offensive). Throughout the evening after work, I give it to her with a syringe, as much as she wants. Luckily she loves it thanks to the critical care; so I can get a lot of water in her and keep her system moving so nothing settles inside her kidneys or bladder. I don't do it in the mornings because then she won't drink as much independently throughout the day. She also gets no pellets and bottled water.

I have not really heard of anyone using this method, but after 5 years of constant worry and heartache, Rosie has had a year of zero problems.

But that is maintenance. Do you know how big the stones are? We got a good estimate through ultrasounds.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I was just reading about Sherwood Urinary support tablets and some people claim that they have dissolved bladdet stoned. Does anyone have any experience with these?

I’m afraid there is nothing that will dissolve a stone already in existence.
Sherwood are supplements containing cranberry (which doesnt help guinea pigs in the way it does humans). It is said to lower the ph of urine but it is rather hard to lower the ph of piggy urine, it is naturally very alkaline and it is that which puts them at risk of stones. There may be some cases where it may have helped but only anecdotal, there’s no research and we have not seen cases of it working on the forum.
Potassium citrate might sometimes reduce the risk, in some Piggies, of future sludge and stones forming but it can’t help any that already exist and it isn’t a miracle medication either.
If there was a miracle medication then bladder stones in piggies would become a problem of the past!

We recommend giving glucosamine supplements to piggies with bladder problems as that can help support the bladder by replenishing the natural glucosamine layer in the bladder (and help soothe from the damage done to the bladder walls by a stone).
Sherwood tablets do not contain glucosamine so will not help on that front either.

Your best bet from an owners point of view is to keep a wet diet, with good hydration and additional water to encourage plenty of urination and keep the bladder flushing through so no sediment sits in the bladder. Cutting out pellets entirely is probably the only other thing you can look to do.
They do still need some calcium in their diet so that is why when I cut pellets out, I give one high calcium veg in a small amount once a week.
When you are potentially fighting a genetic element, you are going to be more limited on what can be done unfortunately.

 

[thecobra2]

Umom the vet didn't give an estimate of the size but did say they weren't as big as the previous one but still far too big to pass naturally. The last 24 hours he has been doing great. I have been syringe feeding him water 4x a day and twice a day I put him on my sofa on some white pee pads. I then give him some water and fresh hay then wait for him to pee and poo than check for blood and pain. His pain seems to have gone entirely....I know guinea pigs are masters at hiding pain but I feel much better not seeing him struggle like before.

I will look into glucosamine as well and do more reading about the Sherwood tablets (although it doesn't seem hopeful). Basically, I am trying to get things setup for after his surgery so I already have the supplies, routine and plan in place to reduce his chances as much as possible of a reaccurance. Thanks again for the help.

I am so sorry. I don't have bladder stone experience with boy pigs, but my girl had a 11mm stone removed over a year ago after life long problems with calcium and sludge.

We have had no problems since the surgery, the stone was removed and her bladder was flushed. Now everyday we have a little "happy hour" ritual - I mix glucosamine with lots of water and some critical care for flavour (Rosie finds glucosamine to taste VERY offensive). Throughout the evening after work, I give it to her with a syringe, as much as she wants. Luckily she loves it thanks to the critical care; so I can get a lot of water in her and keep her system moving so nothing settles inside her kidneys or bladder. I don't do it in the mornings because then she won't drink as much independently throughout the day. She also gets no pellets and bottled water.

I have not really heard of anyone using this method, but after 5 years of constant worry and heartache, Rosie has had a year of zero problems.

But that is maintenance. Do you know how big the stones are? We got a good estimate through ultrasounds.

Ve ve

 

[thecobra2]

Here us an update. My guinea pig got surgery about a month ago and he was on the road to recovery. Here is what I have done post surgery to help him

1) no pellets
2) switched to reverse osmosis water
3) started syringe feeding him water 5x a day. About 5 to 7ml or so each time.
4) feeding only green lettuce, cucumber and green peppers and soaked the lettuce for 30 minutes before giving them to him
5) potassium citrate 2 x 5ml total of 10ml per day
6) 1 Oxbox urinary support biscuit that contains glucosamine
7) doctor recommended supplement called Uroact Plus. Contains cranberry among other things. It is made in Japan, which is where I living.

Now the sad news. He was diagnosed with his 3rd bladder stone (in less than 6 months) this morning. The vet tried to flush it put but unfortunately only got some sludge. I am not going to give up but I know it is definitely a biological thing. I don't think there is anything else I can do. He is doing really great eating and drinking a lot, very active and happy at the moment. I don't think a 3rd surgery is on the table at this point in time, however because this new stone formed so quickly I wasn't able to see the results of my effort.

Anyways, any advice about what to do going forward. Anyone have a guinea pig that was able to live with bladder stones? He isn't on any pain killers atm. Is this something I should insist on starting?

 

[CTWC]

Oh no how sad especially after all of your efforts and changes and his recovery from surgery, is it possible at all that this stone was already forming and didn't show up before? What size is this new stone?

 

[thecobra2]

The vet showed me his xrays after the surgery and no stone in sight. When he tried to flush it out he did get some sludge. The new stone looks to be smaller than his previous one but didn't think to ask. I was absolutely devastated to hear the news. I felt hopeless but not going to give up.

 

[thecobra2]

Going to do some research about timothy hay. Right now they are getting 1st and 2nd cut hay along with oats hay. Is it possible the oats hay is causing problems? I give it because I read it is lower in calcium so figured it was a healthy option.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry to hear another stone has formed.

Timothy hay is absolutely fine to be fed as a main hay.
Oat hay is ok to be given but it is not a main hay, it’s more of an occasionally fed/treat hay and to be fed in much smaller quantities.

Stones can be painful when they bash the bladder.
Pain relief is something to discuss with your vet.

Syringing water to your piggy is absolutely fine.

Soaking the veg in water doesn’t provide additional intake. The water mostly just runs off when the veg is fed.

As I mentioned previously, cutting calcium down too low is as much of a risk factor of being too high. However if there is a genetic predisposition then sadly whatever measures you take are going to have that against them.