Boars drawing blood please help

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VespaLynd839

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Hi everyone.
We adopted two boars (approx 4 months old) who have been together since birth, and they are now about 8 months old.
At first they had an indoor 6 x 2 ft cage and were very happy, and we’ve since upgraded to a double level 5 x 2 ft Chartwell hutch. In the past few weeks they’ve been fighting intermittently, which has been getting worse. I keep separating them so each is on a level and when they reunite they are ok but it’s been getting worse and worse. They also get near daily access to a large outdoor run full of tubes, hideaways, grass, snuggly bits etc (usually for at least 4 hours a day). They went in the run today and I watched them from the computer desk, and saw them really fighting with one on top of the other. When I went to separate them, the smallest has a large deep cut on their back (I’m currently sat at the emergency vets while they check him over).
I guess my question is what should I do? Do I need to permanently separate them with one on each level so they can hear each other but not see or touch? In that case would they need separate run time? Just seems such a shame. I’m also concerned as the chart well hutch is currently in my office inside, but we are moving to a much smaller house in December so the plan was to put them back in the indoor cage at the new house until it warmed up, then put them back in the chartwell hutch outside when the weather warms up. If I have to separate them I won’t be able to do that, so not sure what I’d do with them from Dec-late spring. I could put them outside now (separate) so they are used to the weather but then I’d feel bad that they don’t have the interaction with me during the day while I work and will also be ‘apart’ on separate levels. Any advise would be very welcome - I don’t want them to keep hurting each other and I can’t keep coming to the vet at £85 a pop for out of hours.
 
Welcome to the forum

I'm so sorry to hear this.

Now blood has been drawn sadly that is the end of their relationship. A fight is a clear indication that they cannot have a functioning bond.

Character compatibility is the most vital part of any bond and sadly there has been a breakdown in their compatibility. Unfortunately it can happen to boars during their teens.
Space is an important factor (although compatibility being the most important) for boars and they really do benefit from having as large as space as possible on a single level. Unfortunately moving them from a 6ft single level cage to a 5ft double hutch meant they did lose a bit of space. As ground roaming creatures piggies need their cage to be large enough on a single level and for boars, although 5ft is the minimum size, they really do benefit from that cage being a 6ft cage on a single level.

As mentioned now they have had a blood drawing fight, they cannot have any physical time together, so yes this means separate time in the run also.
For now you will need to put them on a level of the hutch each but long term it’s not a completely viable option. Separated piggies do need to be kept side by side so they can have interaction through the bars and being one up and one down means they can no longer fully interact.

Its a little too late in the year now for them to live outside permanently if they have lived inside up until now. They wont have time to adjust to the colder temperatures - a lot of those who have piggies outdoors in summer are preparing to bring them back indoors now the night times are pretty much below 15 degrees.

Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

You need to take some time to think through your options, don’t rush into anything.
If they can only live on up one down, then getting each of them a new friend may be an option if you can cope with four piggies? If so, the best thing would be to neuter them both and bond them each with a sow. Each level of ghe hutch is big enough for a neutered boar and sow pair. Bonding them each with a new boar friend is likely to be problematic given they are both teenagers - bonding teen boars can be much harder due to the hormones and some rescue centres would attempt to do it dud to the problems they can face.
 
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:agr: @Piggies&buns has given you great advice above. Sadly while you meant the best for them, the move to a double storey hutch resulted in a smaller single level area and prompted new dominance behaviours. As blood has been drawn, please don’t attempt to reintroduce them again. It simply,y will not work. I’m so sorry that it has ended up this way.
 
I'm really sorry this has happened and agree wholeheartedly with everything said above - you can't reintroduce after such a bad fight. They are letting you know that they really don't like each other any more and that won't change. I'd also add don't be tempted to try 'one more time' because even when they are not actually fighting they will be feeling a terrific amount of stress from each other's presence and stress when you go over to them in case you put them back in with the other one again!

People who have the space can put their boys side-by-side so they can interact through the bars and this works pretty well. I had two boars who lived happily like this after the dominant one became unwell and the underpig suddenly started to have a go at him. Have a look at the home-made set ups in the members gallery to see if you can get any inspiration Member Gallery: C&C cages/homemade cages It might be worth investing in some C&C grids anyway to create a barrier in the run - whether indoor or outdoor? It doesn't have to be rectangles - you can do triangles or interlocking L-shapes...

Good luck with thinking through your problem - and you are absolutely not the first to be dealing with this! x
 
Thank you everyone,
Argh well I feel guilty about the ‘upgrade’ but not too much as they were already starting to fight in the single level one - I’d had to put a barrier up for 24 hours once but hoped it was a bit of teenage drama!
They are so sweet and have lovely little personalities, but I don’t know what to do for the best. Realistically I don’t mind having a sow each for them but I’m still faced with the problem of space - I only just have enough room in the new house for the one single level cage we’ve got now(hence the plan to move them outside next spring, and also partly why I’d bought the chartwell now), I couldn’t fit a second one in so I’m again faced with the problem of where to put 2/4 Guinean pigs in December when we move. The only place the chartwell will fit ‘indoors’ is in a separate garage, which isn’t used for cars but I’m guessing still won’t be suitable as too cold?
I’d hate to think of them living their days out on seperate levels by themselves. On the odd day they don’t get out of the hutch I always feel bad and that they must be so bored, and that’s when they’ve got a little friend to interact with. I’m sat in bed now and I can hear them chuntering and chatting.
 
As a last resort, if you were happy to have the boys neutered and have a rescue do bonding to find a friend for one of them and you keep him and his new female friend, and give one of your boars to the rescue to be bonded with a girl for someone else, that would mean you'd have 2 piggies not living alone and you'd have enough space for them. You might feel unable to do that though.
 
VespaLynd839 said:
Thank you everyone,
Argh well I feel guilty about the ‘upgrade’ but not too much as they were already starting to fight in the single level one - I’d had to put a barrier up for 24 hours once but hoped it was a bit of teenage drama!
They are so sweet and have lovely little personalities, but I don’t know what to do for the best. Realistically I don’t mind having a sow each for them but I’m still faced with the problem of space - I only just have enough room in the new house for the one single level cage we’ve got now(hence the plan to move them outside next spring, and also partly why I’d bought the chartwell now), I couldn’t fit a second one in so I’m again faced with the problem of where to put 2/4 Guinean pigs in December when we move. The only place the chartwell will fit ‘indoors’ is in a separate garage, which isn’t used for cars but I’m guessing still won’t be suitable as too cold?
I’d hate to think of them living their days out on seperate levels by themselves. On the odd day they don’t get out of the hutch I always feel bad and that they must be so bored, and that’s when they’ve got a little friend to interact with. I’m sat in bed now and I can hear them chuntering and chatting.
Click to expand...

If they have a new sow friend each, then you are fine to have a double storey hutch - one pair live upstairs and one pair live downstairs. That obviously means you can have four piggies but only take up the floor space of one cage.
Its only while they do not have another piggy in the cage with them that they must live side by side for interaction through the bars.
A neutered boar and sow pair are recommended to have a 5ft cage/hutch, so the chartwell you have is absolutely fine for that.
If you neuter them and bond each with a sow, then they must wait a full six weeks after their neutering surgery before you find them with a sow each. During the first six weeks after neutering, they will remain fertile can still get a sow pregnant.
Best to take them to a rescue centre after they are neutered and six week post surgery safe, and have the centre find them a compatible sow each. Its the sow who needs to accept each boar and with any bonding it comes down to character compatibility so if you do buy sows on spec for them then there is always going to be that risk of a failed bonding and more single piggies.

It depends what temperature the garage gets to. Piggies need to be kept above 15 degrees. However, being out of wind and rain is a major factor in how comfortable they feel. It’s recommended that any outdoor piggies are moved into the house for winter but if that isn’t possible, then ideally into a shed or unused garage.
My boys live in a hutch in my shed year round. They have free roam 24/7 of the shed floor itself from spring until autumn and are them locked in the hutch at night once it gets colder. I find keeping them warm in winter much easier than keeping them cool in summer - it is still a lot of work in winter though. They have to move into the house every summer due to the high temperatures the shed gets to. Whereas I’ve only had to move them indoors in winter once due to not being able to keep them warm last winter when it hit -8 outside and the shed got down to 2 degrees. Normally they shed sits around 12-15 degrees in winter and it remains warmer than that inside the hutch itself with the measures I take of keep them warm - the hutch is filled completely with hay, hides stuffed with hay and four snugglesafe heatpads are put inside the hutch (the heatpads are microwaveable and warmed up each morning and evening and they last 8-10 hours before going cold so I time heating them to give them maximum benefit overnight). On the hutch is a thermal hutch cover, then two blankets, then a further hutch cover and then a duvet over all of it To help hold the warmth inside the hutch. Of course, that doesn’t mean to say it won’t become harder to keep the shed warm if we keep getting very cold winters
 
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My piggies live in my garage. It’s lovely and cool in the summer and warmer than outside in the winter. I put lots of hay in their sleeping boxes and a snugglesafe at night and then reheat it for the day too. And I also cover them at night in the winter with a 10tog duvet. 😍
 
So potentially I could castrate and match with sows then when we move put them in the garage? We were going to get a thermal cover for the chartwell anyway along with a rain cover, but could get plenty of heat pad things and they already have a ridiculous amount of hay, I also cut a few entrances in the gusto food delivery boxes and use them as little houses, thought they would be quite good as they have a thermal layer aswell.
Couldn’t sleep last night :(:( I’ve been Googling and there doesn’t seem to be any rescues near me (Devon), except an RSPCA one. Does anyone know if they would help to pair? Happy to donate to them.
 
Yes you can do that.
The only thing is that you will need to be ensure they are not exposed to a sudden downward temperature change though (ie if the garage is going to be much colder than in the house) as that is what can make them poorly. Obviously next autumn/winter they will already be out there so wont be exposed to sudden changes (they'll acclimate slowly as the season progresses - although they arent hardy so do still need to be kept warm enough in winter) but for this year if they are going to be in indoor temperatures and then go out into the garage all on one day, then you will need to be sure the temperature inside the hutch Is definitely warm enough. You are aiming to keep them at or above 15 degrees (18-22 being their comfort zone) at all times.

I know rescues are few and far between in that area. It is definitely worth travelling for bonding though to ensure you find a good compatible friend and can rest assured that they do get on. Your alternative is to buy sows - while rescuing is best, ultimately you need to do what is right for your boys to ensure they are happy
This is our Rescue Locator. The one in Bristol is mentioned a lot for those who live in your area of the country
 
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I know it's easy to say but try not to stress about it. There are plenty of piggies who have to spend a bit of time alone while they wait for a new partner and they manage. You're worrying because you love them but they'll be fine in the short term and at least they can hear each other. I don't know the details of this hutch but is there any chance of setting up a run around the bottom layer so top piggy can spend some time there seeing bottom piggy thru the bars? You could just use a few towels or a bit of newspaper to cover the floor.

Having no small children or other pets we take the slightly different approach of a 'shared space' with our indoor piggies. They live in the kitchen by the back door but the worktop they are under is still used when I sow seeds, pot on, root cuttings etc. They just have to budge over a bit sometimes (although they do come out and stand on my feet to attract attention just in case I have something tasty) Obviously this means we don't have any dogs visiting the house (and they have to be shut in when we have a workman because they're quite nosy!)
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It’s when we move that space will be an issue. Can’t do a shared space thing as we have the children and a cat who will pounce on anything she can! Bristol rescue has said they could take one in a single boy programme and try to find the other one a new friend, but quite honestly I don’t know how I’d get the children to choose which one to keep, they have one each and adore them.
Waiting to hear from another rescue.
 
Hello, so I’ve been in touch with a few rescue centres for advice and to look at options. The RSPCA advised that I should castrate them and they should then be ok, but from what I’ve read this won’t affect the temperament in Guineas like it does for other animals?
I’m trying to think of all options to keep them. I haven’t the space for two indoor cages, and neither myself or the kids would be emotionally up for attempting to bond with two females etc, or keeping one over the other.
 
You are right and the advice the RSPCA is incorrect - neutering them will not change their behaviour and it certainly won’t make them like each other again.

If a rescue can help you with bonding, then that takes the actual process away from you having to do it.

As for indoor cages, c&c cages can be stacked so if you can find the floor space for one appropriately sized cage, then you can put a second c&c on top of it so you can have two separate piggy pairs and not take up twice the floor space.

We can help support you with whatever decision you make.
 
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Thank you.
I’ve just set up the big indoor run and put a divider down the middle, put them in each one so they could see but not get to each other. I stand chuntering and rumbling, up at the divider cross with each other and swaying. Really not happy to see each other. In the individual hutch tiers they are a bit subdued but are eating and wheeling to me still. I guess for now I need to keep them in the individual tiers with separate run time and no visual contact (they can obviously hear each other but don’t seem to mind that) and keep thinking until I hear back from rescues.
 
We can’t host video on here, so its best to upload to something like YouTube and then post a link to it here
 
As explained by Piggies&Buns up above, if they had a fight in which blood was drawn you should not put them back together.

However, it is fine for them to be separated by the bars with their own space / territory so they can interact. The might still do some dominance behaviours through the bars but since this is a normal behaviour for them to exhibit and no one is getting hurt there is no issue with that.
 
By the way when I click on those links it says the video is uploading but it also includes what I assume is your first and last name as well as a location for the video. Given that this is a public forum, you might want to remove some of that information?
 
When putting them in a play pen, you need to make sure the divider is secure and they can’t push past to get to the other side. Hopefully the posing will calm down and they’ll settle into a more amicable neighbourly relationship.
 
Deleted your iCloud links
 
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