Bonding 2 females - is it a hopeless case?

[GinnyGuinea]

We have two female guinea pigs - Tulip (14 weeks) and Tibbles (10 weeks). We got them nearly 2 weeks ago from a man who'd "rescued" them as leftovers from a pet auction. When we got them they were together in a hutch with quite a few other females. For the first few days we had them they lived in a big box as we hadn't got their proper cage yet. It became clear that Tulip was very frightened around people; Tibbles was quite friendly. They didn't seem the best of friends but they didn't fight either.

It was when they went into the new cage that the problems started. The cage had a built-in house at one end, which I realise with hindsight was a very bad idea. Tulip was very possessive of it and an hour or two later ended up giving Tibbles a nasty bite on her rump, leaving a patch of missing fur and a bloody wound. At this point I removed the house and gave them big balls of hay to hide in instead. Since then, Tibbles has been terrified of Tulip and has hidden as much as possible - she is much less sociable with us as a result. Tulip continues to be aggressive towards her - e.g. chasing her round the cage, snapping at her, being possessive of food. Every time Tulip comes near her Tibbles squeaks and sounds very frightened. I noticed today that Tibbles has a small patch of fur missing on her nose, presumably from another minor run-in with Tulip.

I haven't separated them as I fear that once they are separated they will never be able to live together again, but I'm starting to think they are not going to sort things out themselves. Does it sound hopeless? And if so, what on earth do we do with Tulip? I suspect that she would do well in a large group of guinea pigs with a strong "pecking order" and without much human interaction. Tibbles, on the other hand, could be a lovely pet without Tulip scaring the life out of her! Any advice much appreciated.

 

[PigglePuggle]

Please try not to project human thoughts onto your piggies here about who is "right" or "wrong" and who would make a good pet and who wouldn't! Both girls are probably very scared if they came from a bad background, and fear manifests in different ways in different piggies, probably the more aggressive girl is more scared and this is just down to fear. One of our more experienced behaviour experts should he along soon, but how big is your cage? And how many hidey houses do you have now? If you only had one covered area I can quite imagine the more terrified girl fighting to get in and hide, this is not her fault at all!
As for the future, please check you have the cage size and number of hideys correct, I would say 3 hideys for 2 piggies so they can choose, and a minimum of a 120cm long cage, but bigger is better. And ideally you always need a plan B, if these girls just wont get along due to personality clashes or accidental upsets during their bonding, each will need their own cage and a new friend. Possibly once they have settled in for a while as next door neighbours, and got over some of their fear aggression panic in a new home, kept separate but able to interact through the bars, you might try the reintroductions in a few weeks on neutral territory for a few hours before trying them again in a cage together that has been completely cleaned out and reorganised with 2 or 3 of everything to prevent any squabbles. But not all piggies will like each other, even with the best of intentions, especially if they are quite defensive after a bad start in life!

 

[GinnyGuinea]

Thanks PigglePuggle. Absolutely, Tulip is clearly traumatised and very scared - I didn't mean to sound as if I think she's a "bad" guinea pig! The negative side is that she has made Tibbles a lot more scared and lot less happy than she was before - I just don't want Tibbles to be any more upset by it.
Our cage is 120 and now that the house has gone (which as I said was a mistake) it only has hay for hiding in. Yesterday I tried putting in two arcs, one for each to hide under, but Tulip was ramping up her aggression and chasing Tibbles out of whichever arc she was under, so I've taken them out again. They seem most at peace when they just have the hay, but as you suggest I could try having 3 hideys.
I think you're right that separation and being neighbours might be the way to go - space is a bit of an issue though!

 

[Merab]

Welcome to the forum.
Two weeks isn’t very long for such young and scared piggies to settle.
@PigglePuggle has given you very good guidance.
Your girls will need time and patience to feel secure and safe with you.
Well done for rescuing them and giving them a good home.

 

[GinnyGuinea]

Thank you Merab's slave - you're right, I need to give it more time. But it's like kids, I just want them to be happy! This is a great forum by the way, I've found lots of really helpful information.

 

[DMS260820]

I use a 120 cage, and I find having a carrot cottage each end, with an extra door way cut in one side of each cottage, then a seagreass tunnel at the back centre of the cage. My two do argue, but it works out. Just an idea. I have a boar with a bossy sow, they get along just enough to be able to be together. He's no problem though, it's her

 

[Wiebke]

We have two female guinea pigs - Tulip (14 weeks) and Tibbles (10 weeks). We got them nearly 2 weeks ago from a man who'd "rescued" them as leftovers from a pet auction. When we got them they were together in a hutch with quite a few other females. For the first few days we had them they lived in a big box as we hadn't got their proper cage yet. It became clear that Tulip was very frightened around people; Tibbles was quite friendly. They didn't seem the best of friends but they didn't fight either.

It was when they went into the new cage that the problems started. The cage had a built-in house at one end, which I realise with hindsight was a very bad idea. Tulip was very possessive of it and an hour or two later ended up giving Tibbles a nasty bite on her rump, leaving a patch of missing fur and a bloody wound. At this point I removed the house and gave them big balls of hay to hide in instead. Since then, Tibbles has been terrified of Tulip and has hidden as much as possible - she is much less sociable with us as a result. Tulip continues to be aggressive towards her - e.g. chasing her round the cage, snapping at her, being possessive of food. Every time Tulip comes near her Tibbles squeaks and sounds very frightened. I noticed today that Tibbles has a small patch of fur missing on her nose, presumably from another minor run-in with Tulip.

I haven't separated them as I fear that once they are separated they will never be able to live together again, but I'm starting to think they are not going to sort things out themselves. Does it sound hopeless? And if so, what on earth do we do with Tulip? I suspect that she would do well in a large group of guinea pigs with a strong "pecking order" and without much human interaction. Tibbles, on the other hand, could be a lovely pet without Tulip scaring the life out of her! Any advice much appreciated.

Hi!

Please be aware that you have got totally stressed out and neglected sows from the worst kind of background with nothing in the way of friendly human interaction that you are now expecting to function as friendly sociable pets...

Please take the time to read up on how things look from your guinea pig's perspective, how prey animal instincts work (Tibbles is currently running them on them as much as Tulip, just in another way so don't be surprised when you get the 'Tibbles suddenly hates me' phase, too!) and how you can interact with them in their own language and social framework ('piggy whispering') to take yourself out of the predator category and avoid triggering their prey animal instincts any more than absolutely necessary.
This is all a bit too complex to explain just in one post, hence our guides!
Arrival in a home from the perspective of pet shop guinea pigs (your piggies are just the same - only even more so!)
Understanding Prey Animal Instincts, Guinea Pig Whispering And Cuddling Tips
How To Pick Up And Weigh Your Guinea Pig Safely
Guinea Pig Facts - An Overview

Please also read up on the social interaction so you can understand better what is going on. What you are witnessing is strong dominance behaviour from an insecure leader as your two girls are establishing their group in new territory.
Please have everything in twos - hideys (with two exits each), water bottles and two bowls (one for each piggy) in which you serve a small portion of balanced veg and 2 tablespoons of pellets (1 tablespoon for piggies over 4 months); so it can be eaten in one go and you can remove the bowls in between meals tp encourage them to eat as much hay as possible - over 80% of what a guinea pig eats in a day should be hay, hay and more hay to keep the teeth, gut and general health happy; it can add another 1-2 years to your piggies' life expectancy.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics (see especially post-bonding dominance phase)
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Please check whether your hutch is large enough and protected enough for your girls. Most hutches are too small and not well built (uncluding pet shop 'luxury' brands, which are unfortunately anything but sturdy and large enough). Guinea pigs are NOT hardy and they are ground roaming group animals that need all the space on one level they can get; not just a tiny compartment in bad weather.
It is a myth that piggies sleep happily snuggled up together - most don't and even those that do won't do so all the time.
Cage Size Guide
Cold Weather Care For Guinea Pigs
Hot Weather Management, Heat Strokes and Fly Strike

Unfortunately with the background they are from, you will need to double-check the gender and may have to brace yourself that the bald spot on the nose is unlikely to be from a nip (sows will bite off fur if they really do not like somebody, usually at the back end) but they do NOT bite others during the dominance phase) but rather the onset of ringworm. Please have them vet checked. With ringworm, which is the most contagious and aggressive form of a fungal skin infection that can jump species (including humans and other pets), good hygiene and the appropriate treatment is paramount to get on top of it. DIY home treatment with creaming will only turn this into a never ending nightmare for you; we have seen plenty of that on here over the years...
What to check and look out for in new guinea pigs (vet checks, sexing, parasites&illness)
Ringworm: Hygiene And Pictures

Unfortunately, in view of the background, you may also have to brace yourself that any sows could be pregnant. Backyard breeder that supply piggies for snake food at auctions are not exactly known for good care or gender separation. Boars can make babies from 3 weeks onwards while sows have their first season between 4-6 weeks of age.
Pregnancy & Baby Care Guide's

I know that this a lot for you to take in and read througg but you are unfortunately in for a steep learning curve to get through this as best as possible in view of where your piggies are from and the extra understanding and support that they need. But you can hopefully come out on the other side with two well cared for pet piggies. It is not a quick process and it may take you months depending on how bad and traumatising their start to life is and how stressed out their mother was during pregnancy and the nursing period.
We are here to support you on your journey, but you can help us A LOT by please reading up so you can then ask any further unanswered or new questions so we can help you to get to a better place more quickly.

You can find all the links (except for our pregnancy information) in this post as part of our even more comprehensive New Owners guide collection, which specifically addresses all the areas that we get the most questions and concerns about in a very practical and detailed way and does not gloss over the tricky points. We have also several guides that help you learn what is normal and what not, spot the early signs of illness, when to see a vet plus links to recommended vets in several countries.
I would recommend that you bookmark the link and use it as a resource. The guide format allows us to constantly update the information and to extend it at need. Our full range of information can be accessed via the guide shortcut on the top bar.
Here is the link to the new owners collection: Getting Started - New Owners' Most Helpful Guides

 

[GinnyGuinea]

Hi Wiebke,

Thank you for taking the time to write such a long and detailed reply.

May I politely suggest that your first paragraph is a little unfair and makes a lot of assumptions? I willingly admit that through ignorance I made a mistake in putting only one house in their cage and that this has caused them additional stress. However, otherwise I believe I am providing what they need. I sit with them for at least 15 minutes at least 4 times a day, talking quietly, putting in my hand for them to sniff, giving them veg so that they associate me with nice things. I do not try to stroke them, cuddle them etc - obviously I realise they are not at a point where this will be welcome. Yes, I do hope that one day they will become friendly, interactive pets, but first and foremost I want them to feel happy and safe.

I am feeding them the recommended diet of hay, pellets and a good variety of fresh veg/fruit. They have 2 feeding bowls and 2 water bottles.

I have read all the guides you recommend; thank you, they contain some really useful information. I will try some "piggy whispering" techniques. Thanks too for the heads up about ringworm, I will get them checked by a vet once they have calmed down enough for it not to cause massive stress. I'm also aware of possible pregnancy - another reason I don't want to cause added stress.

Thanks again for your input.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi Wiebke,

Thank you for taking the time to write such a long and detailed reply.

May I politely suggest that your first paragraph is a little unfair and makes a lot of assumptions? I willingly admit that through ignorance I made a mistake in putting only one house in their cage and that this has caused them additional stress. However, otherwise I believe I am providing what they need. I sit with them for at least 15 minutes at least 4 times a day, talking quietly, putting in my hand for them to sniff, giving them veg so that they associate me with nice things. I do not try to stroke them, cuddle them etc - obviously I realise they are not at a point where this will be welcome. Yes, I do hope that one day they will become friendly, interactive pets, but first and foremost I want them to feel happy and safe.

I am feeding them the recommended diet of hay, pellets and a good variety of fresh veg/fruit. They have 2 feeding bowls and 2 water bottles.

I have read all the guides you recommend; thank you, they contain some really useful information. I will try some "piggy whispering" techniques. Thanks too for the heads up about ringworm, I will get them checked by a vet once they have calmed down enough for it not to cause massive stress. I'm also aware of possible pregnancy - another reason I don't want to cause added stress.

Thanks again for your input.

Hi! Sorry if I have hurt your feelings; I was very tired after some very late nights working this week, just about ready to fall into bed and did not take well to the way you phrased your concerns about Tulip.

We don't see all that rarely well meaning new owners taking on piggies they are not yet really equipped to deal with.
Thank you for reading the guides; this makes our job of supporting you easier as we can refer back to them and do not have to give you the whole information all over again in small doses.

I have adopted my fair share of piggies from hellholes over the years, so I know what a challenge you are up against and how long it can take. The more you can learn to understand where your piggies come from and how to read their behaviour, the better you can work with them.

Build up a firm daily routine and connect every repetitive act with a little phrase that comes with its very own tune and pitch (piggies react more to tunes and emotion in your voice than words although they will learn to recognise their names and key phrases said in the same tone). This helps them to make sense of their new bewildering world, gives it structure and helps them to anticipate what is coming.

Communication and interaction is two-way process that can be speeded up if you try to not just see your own human pet expectations end, as most people automatically do. Learning to speak 'cavy' and putting any problem in a social frame that makes sense can make a real difference in settling in very skittish piggies that run on all their instincts constantly on high alert. I have learned what I have put down in my guides by watching how my savviest piggies deal with integrating new arrivals into a group and how they tackle difficult situations to not letting them blow up. It has been a real eye opener for me just how subtle and complex piggy interaction can be.

It is of course rather more difficult at first because you learn over time to read situations and develop an instinctive feel for whether piggies want to stay together and are careful to not cross the line or whether they (rarely, actually) have real aggression potential. Most problems are fear/stress and not aggression motivated. your girls are at an age where they would normally rely on the guidance of a 'teacher' piggy they follow to learn to master their environment and to learn the finer points of social interaction in the group they have been born into. Finding themselves without that protection and guidances is coming quite as a shock. Tulip is feeling rather overwhelmed by having to take over a job she is not feeling yet qualified for and is therefore overreacting somewhat.

I don't know which country you are located in but - pending the ringworm issue and the necessary quarantine in view of their background/the impending Christmas rehoming break - you might perhaps think about dating your girls with an adult neutered rescue boar who can help socialising and integrating your girls and give them the kind of anchoring that they lack? They will come round a lot quicker if they have a piggy to take their cues from that is relaxed in a pet situation and in their interaction with humans. I have found that providing company that can help to integrate and stabilise any new arrivals that are feeling all at sea is the best thing I can do.
Take your time to think this over and talk with any good rescues you can get to whether they have a suitable gentle 'patriarch' past the teenage hormones.
Recommended vetted good standard guinea pig rescues we can vouch for: Recommended Guinea Pig Rescues
Recommended and vetted good rescues in some other countries: Guinea Lynx :: Rescue Organizations

It would help us a lot of you please added your country, state/province or UK county to location in your account details; click on your username on the top bar to access them. That makes it appear with every post you. This in turn allows to tailor any recommendations to what is available or relevant where you are straight away and to include local tips and knowledge, so we have them, where possible instead of keeping any advice as general as possible.
We have members and enquiries from literally all over the world, very different climates, backgrounds, access to vets and rescues, differing medical or other brand or veg names etc... so our individualised advice can differ quite enormously!

If you notice signs of a pregnancy or want to do so now for any questions re. preparation, please start an ongoing support thread in our specially monitored pregnancy section that is going to accompany you throughout the whole time, whatever happens. Because of the often long term nature of pregnancy and illness support we prefer to keep it all to one ongoing thread per case, which allows us to refer back to avoid contradictory or repetitive advice, confusion and to allow us to support you as effectively as possible.
I won't be around over the holidays but we have some specially designated experienced rescue fosterers on board who can help you with practical advice and support. They are the ones with the pregnancy badge in their signature.
Recommended Guinea Pig Rescues

 

[BossHogg]

I have a boar with a bossy sow, they get along just enough to be able to be together. He's no problem though, it's her.

Sounds like a scenario in nearly every marriage on the planet!

 

[GinnyGuinea]

I use a 120 cage, and I find having a carrot cottage each end, with an extra door way cut in one side of each cottage, then a seagreass tunnel at the back centre of the cage. My two do argue, but it works out. Just an idea. I have a boar with a bossy sow, they get along just enough to be able to be together. He's no problem though, it's her

Thanks SkyPipDotBernie, I missed your post yesterday but that sounds like a good idea.

 

[GinnyGuinea]

Hi! Sorry if I have hurt your feelings; I was very tired after some very late nights working this week, just about ready to fall into bed and did not take well to the way you phrased your concerns about Tulip.

We don't see all that rarely well meaning new owners taking on piggies they are not yet really equipped to deal with.
Thank you for reading the guides; this makes our job of supporting you easier as we can refer back to them and do not have to give you the whole information all over again in small doses.

I have adopted my fair share of piggies from hellholes over the years, so I know what a challenge you are up against and how long it can take. The more you can learn to understand where your piggies come from and how to read their behaviour, the better you can work with them.

Build up a firm daily routine and connect every repetitive act with a little phrase that comes with its very own tune and pitch (piggies react more to tunes and emotion in your voice than words although they will learn to recognise their names and key phrases said in the same tone). This helps them to make sense of their new bewildering world, gives it structure and helps them to anticipate what is coming.

Communication and interaction is two-way process that can be speeded up if you try to not just see your own human pet expectations end, as most people automatically do. Learning to speak 'cavy' and putting any problem in a social frame that makes sense can make a real difference in settling in very skittish piggies that run on all their instincts constantly on high alert. I have learned what I have put down in my guides by watching how my savviest piggies deal with integrating new arrivals into a group and how they tackle difficult situations to not letting them blow up. It has been a real eye opener for me just how subtle and complex piggy interaction can be.

It is of course rather more difficult at first because you learn over time to read situations and develop an instinctive feel for whether piggies want to stay together and are careful to not cross the line or whether they (rarely, actually) have real aggression potential. Most problems are fear/stress and not aggression motivated. your girls are at an age where they would normally rely on the guidance of a 'teacher' piggy they follow to learn to master their environment and to learn the finer points of social interaction in the group they have been born into. Finding themselves without that protection and guidances is coming quite as a shock. Tulip is feeling rather overwhelmed by having to take over a job she is not feeling yet qualified for and is therefore overreacting somewhat.

I don't know which country you are located in but - pending the ringworm issue and the necessary quarantine in view of their background/the impending Christmas rehoming break - you might perhaps think about dating your girls with an adult neutered rescue boar who can help socialising and integrating your girls and give them the kind of anchoring that they lack? They will come round a lot quicker if they have a piggy to take their cues from that is relaxed in a pet situation and in their interaction with humans. I have found that providing company that can help to integrate and stabilise any new arrivals that are feeling all at sea is the best thing I can do.
Take your time to think this over and talk with any good rescues you can get to whether they have a suitable gentle 'patriarch' past the teenage hormones.
Recommended vetted good standard guinea pig rescues we can vouch for: Recommended Guinea Pig Rescues
Recommended and vetted good rescues in some other countries: Guinea Lynx :: Rescue Organizations

It would help us a lot of you please added your country, state/province or UK county to location in your account details; click on your username on the top bar to access them. That makes it appear with every post you. This in turn allows to tailor any recommendations to what is available or relevant where you are straight away and to include local tips and knowledge, so we have them, where possible instead of keeping any advice as general as possible.
We have members and enquiries from literally all over the world, very different climates, backgrounds, access to vets and rescues, differing medical or other brand or veg names etc... so our individualised advice can differ quite enormously!

If you notice signs of a pregnancy or want to do so now for any questions re. preparation, please start an ongoing support thread in our specially monitored pregnancy section that is going to accompany you throughout the whole time, whatever happens. Because of the often long term nature of pregnancy and illness support we prefer to keep it all to one ongoing thread per case, which allows us to refer back to avoid contradictory or repetitive advice, confusion and to allow us to support you as effectively as possible.
I won't be around over the holidays but we have some specially designated experienced rescue fosterers on board who can help you with practical advice and support. They are the ones with the pregnancy badge in their signature.
Recommended Guinea Pig Rescues

Hi Wiebke, I'm the one who should be apologising - I realised later that I had mis-read your post and didn't see the "got" in the first line...which changes the meaning a bit! Sorry about that. On re-reading my own first post I see that I sound as if I want to get rid of Tulip - this isn't the case, I have just been thinking that Tibbles might be happier without Tulip and wondering what set-up Tulip might feel more comfortable in. I read a couple of articles online which suggested that once blood has been drawn it is very unlikely that a pairing will work out, so I was in a bit of a panic, but it sounds from the advice I've had as if this isn't the case and it's worth giving them more time. Tibbles has actually been a bit bolder in the last 24 hours - I wonder if she was hiding while she had an open wound, as I presume guinea pigs would in the wild. It's healed nicely now. They also seem to have avoided scuffles in the last 24 hours - a good sign!

It's an interesting idea about getting a boar - I have read that a boar + 2 females can be a good set-up. We'll just have to wait until their sex is confirmed and we know of any pregnancy before we make any decision.

Thanks for all the other information and advice, I appreciate it. I'll try putting my location on in a minute - I'm in Somerset, UK.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi Wiebke, I'm the one who should be apologising - I realised later that I had mis-read your post and didn't see the "got" in the first line...which changes the meaning a bit! Sorry about that. On re-reading my own first post I see that I sound as if I want to get rid of Tulip - this isn't the case, I have just been thinking that Tibbles might be happier without Tulip and wondering what set-up Tulip might feel more comfortable in. I read a couple of articles online which suggested that once blood has been drawn it is very unlikely that a pairing will work out, so I was in a bit of a panic, but it sounds from the advice I've had as if this isn't the case and it's worth giving them more time. Tibbles has actually been a bit bolder in the last 24 hours - I wonder if she was hiding while she had an open wound, as I presume guinea pigs would in the wild. It's healed nicely now. They also seem to have avoided scuffles in the last 24 hours - a good sign!

It's an interesting idea about getting a boar - I have read that a boar + 2 females can be a good set-up. We'll just have to wait until their sex is confirmed and we know of any pregnancy before we make any decision.

Thanks for all the other information and advice, I appreciate it. I'll try putting my location on in a minute - I'm in Somerset, UK.

Thank you!

I would not push bonding right now and give your girls time to settle down and get to grips with their new home. Please never get a new companion on spec and rather take your girls rescue dating (right now they are technically in quarantine anyway) so they can have a say in whether or who they are getting on with - and you come home with a piggy only after acceptance has happened.

Sadly Little Pip in Sidmouth (which would have been our first recommendation as they offered residential dating over the course of several days) has just had to cease operating due to circumstances beyond their control so your closest good rescues are in the Bristol area.

We are here on this thread for any further questions and concerns in the coming days.

A bite to the mouth or nose is an instinctive split second defence reaction when a piggy is on edge and feels threatened. It can happen during a bonding or a scare when two piggies seek refuge in the same space and come face to face or if one of them is scared and feeling invaded/cornered. It is not the result of a fight, which is rare with sows.