Bonding 4th girl

[Sarah herbivore]

Hello all...
I've had groups of girls for 20 years and have never had any problems bonding, but I've come across a problem pig
I had 3 girls, 2 nervous sisters and a recent addition (that bond went quite well) but one of the nervous sisters is being aggressive to my newest addition, number 4. I introduced on neutral territory and all was fine until she started confronting the newbie,and that set the others off.
I removed her but the others wouldn't settle. I tried again today by bathing the calmer 3 so they smelled neutral and after a few mins they settled beautifully.
But now I feel stuck as I don't know how to join in the aggressive one?
Whether to bath her and the newbie and let them meet separately so's not to upset the other two or whether to bath the whole 4 again..Aarrgghh!
Any ideas?

 

[Wiebke]

Hello all...
I've had groups of girls for 20 years and have never had any problems bonding, but I've come across a problem pig
I had 3 girls, 2 nervous sisters and a recent addition (that bond went quite well) but one of the nervous sisters is being aggressive to my newest addition, number 4. I introduced on neutral territory and all was fine until she started confronting the newbie,and that set the others off.
I removed her but the others wouldn't settle. I tried again today by bathing the calmer 3 so they smelled neutral and after a few mins they settled beautifully.
But now I feel stuck as I don't know how to join in the aggressive one?
Whether to bath her and the newbie and let them meet separately so's not to upset the other two or whether to bath the whole 4 again..Aarrgghh!
Any ideas?

Hi!

Bathing is one of these magic bonding tricks that have unfortunately not stood the time. All it does is to generate more stress and put off the bonding process, but it doesn't influence the bonding positively. In the end, it always comes down to acceptance and whether the piggies get on or not - and that is personality driven and not something you can change.

Try them again as a group, but be aware that your fear-aggressive girl may not settle with a piggy she perceives as a direct rival for her position in the rankings. If the reaction is so strong, then you have to be aware that even if you can settle the group, the mutual dislike will break open again and again at times of stress in my own experience with groups.
Bonding is not so much making piggies do what you want but you respecting certain hang-ups and problems and finding different solutions. Piggies are a lot like humans - highly sociable with an even stronger group identity but equally strong personal loves and instant dislikes. The way you can't tell two students to be best of friends, you can't make piggies become bosom buddies. It just won't work.
I currently have got two quartets (2 sows and a neutered boar) where adding any more sows is going to be extremely tricky to impossible because of the personalities involved. Trying to introduce both bottom sister pairs into the same group first was a clear fail due to strong hierarchy clashes (similar to what you report just times two) and required me to do some group juggling to settle them in two different groups. Life in both groups still has its lively moments but they are at least overall stable.
My large group, which I very carefully built up over several years making sure that any new piggies would fit in fell eventually apart a generation after a hostile takeover by an ambitious younger sow when the old top lady became frailer and group dynamics took a turn for the worse.

Please take the time to read these guides. Be aware that by far not all bondings work out.
Bonding: Illustrated Dominance Behaviours And Dynamics
Bonds In Trouble

 

[VickiA]

I agree with @Wiebke. Buddy bathing is an out dated practice that in my experience doesn’t sort out the cause of the problem. It just delays it by a short period.
With bonding your sows I would try them again in neutral territory and nowhere for anyone to get trapped and let them work it out if they can. However, my experience of sows is that despite our best efforts sometimes they just will not accept each other. You may have to accept that it fails.

 

[Sarah herbivore]

Thank you
I bathed them individually to make them smell the same (I didn't do it as a stress bond) as a last resort, I've never had to do it before, but then I've never had a problem before.
I was ok with bossy pig asserting herself over the new girl but then she started charging at everyone and I was worried it would upset the whole herd
I'll try again today, the other 3 have settled beautifully.
Thanks X

 

[i<3piggys]

Thank you
I bathed them individually to make them smell the same (I didn't do it as a stress bond) as a last resort, I've never had to do it before, but then I've never had a problem before.
I was ok with bossy pig asserting herself over the new girl but then she started charging at everyone and I was worried it would upset the whole herd
I'll try again today, the other 3 have settled beautifully.
Thanks X

I hope everything goes well , I was thinking of adding another girl to my group (which would be number 4 also) let us know how it turns out.

 

[VickiA]

Thank you
I bathed them individually to make them smell the same (I didn't do it as a stress bond) as a last resort, I've never had to do it before, but then I've never had a problem before.
I was ok with bossy pig asserting herself over the new girl but then she started charging at everyone and I was worried it would upset the whole herd
I'll try again today, the other 3 have settled beautifully.
Thanks X

Please be assured I didn’t think you’d bathed them all together as a stress bond. But the practice of bathing to make piggies smell the same is one that is outdated and no longer recommended by this forum as a method of improving the prospects of a successful bond. Scent is not really the issue. Personality is the main factor.

When you introduced newcomer(s) the whole herd has to find its own place. It starts with the top sow who has to establish and reestablish her position over everyone and then works down position by position is the number 2 sow then establishes her position with everyone etc. That’s whey herd bonding takes time and patience.

 

[Sarah herbivore]

I gritted my teeth through the nipping...
Eventually bossy went and layed next to the new girl...I let them in a new huge box with hay and theyre
all settled, infact bossy seems more relaxed somewhere cosy

 

[Wiebke]

All the best that the very worst of the dominance has been settled now! Bondings are always nerve wracking. The dominance phase in a group bonding takes about two weeks, but should hopefully be past the very worst of it.

It is impossible to judge for us just from your report how extreme the dominance behaviour is and whether it is just at line or crossing it. All we can do is give you our guides to help you make the judgment yourself.

 

[Sarah herbivore]

All the best that the very worst of the dominance has been settled now! Bondings are always nerve wracking. The dominance phase in a group bonding takes about two weeks, but should hopefully be past the very worst of it.

It is impossible to judge for us just from your report how extreme the dominance behaviour is and whether it is just at line or crossing it. All we can do is give you our guides to help you make the judgment yourself.

I think it was mainly fear, she was like it with pig no 3, but not as bad. The white with black nose and the Dutch are the most skittish pigs I've ever had, it's taken 2 years for them to come and take food from me, think they had a very undersocialised first 6 months.. I'm sure she'll be fine now
Thank you x