Bonding Advice?

[rmanuel]

I’m looking for a little advice. I currently have two girls in a bonding pen. They’ve been in there for nearly 4 hours. They haven’t shown any major signs of aggression or anything. It seemed like they just needed to duke out who’s on top.

For context, my girl was left solo after her sister died last year. The bond between them broke after a medical separation (which I’ve since read might not be a good idea, although I was just following the advice of my vet; anyways, that’s in the past now). They lived with a grid between them until the other died last year, and since then I’ve been trying to find a partner for her (piggies are rather sparse where I live). So she’s been without a bonded partner for nearly 2 years of her 4.5 years of life. The piggy I’m introducing her to is a rescue who’s lived solo her entire 3 years of life.

It seems like they’ve currently hit a point of stagnancy. They’ve shown no real signs of “accepting” each other (grooming, lying with each other, etc.). When the rescue piggy comes near my girl, she immediately teeth chatters, nose bumps, and chases her off, and my girl runs off to huddle in a corner, where she freezes, seemingly in fear or stress. But there’s also been no major aggression shown between them. No flying fur or blood drawn bites or anything like that.

I guess I’m just not sure what to do from here. Do I leave them in the bonding cage overnight? Or do I separate them back into their cages and try again tomorrow/another day? Or is this persistent enough to consider it a failed bonding? It’s nearly 9pm my time, so I’m going to have to make a decision soon. I’m especially worried about my girl because she’s getting up there in age, and I don’t really want to leave her in a situation that’s super stressful for her for a long period of time unless it’s necessary.

 

[Mrs Tiggy Winkle]

Sorry nobody has answered so far, the great majority of members are in Europe and asleep when you posted.

Separating them back into their cages just means you have to start from scratch again another time, because it interrupts the bonding process.

I think I would have left them together overnight. I'm not an expert though, the way some people on the forum are. I hope one of these people gets back to you in the course of today. How did you decide?

 

[Mrs Tiggy Winkle]

A useful link for you: Behaviour, Bonds and Species Understanding

The most up-to-date knowledge from those knowledgeable forum members all in one place!

 

[rmanuel]

Sorry nobody has answered so far, the great majority of members are in Europe and asleep when you posted.

Separating them back into their cages just means you have to start from scratch again another time, because it interrupts the bonding process.

I think I would have left them together overnight. I'm not an expert though, the way some people on the forum are. I hope one of these people gets back to you in the course of today. How did you decide?

Sorry I missed this! Even though I have it set to notify me when there are replies, it didn’t…

I did end up separating them and I’m actually trying again today. I think I expected less of an ambiguous experience, based on past experiences where it has been obvious from the get-go whether a pair will get along or not, so I hadn’t budgeted enough time to work through a really long bonding process. And I didn’t trust them in the bonding cage alone all night as well as the next day while I was at work, especially as my girl has a history of getting stress-induced gut stasis (my first ever visit to the vet was because of this when I first got her as a baby!).

My girl was VERY happy to be separated. She immediately pooped a whole load in the corner of her hay pile and started eating and drinking and bopping around comfortably. And the rescue piggy acted quite ambivalent about being separated. I managed to squish her cage in next to my girl’s (had to move some furniture around temporarily) so that they could at least communicate in the meantime and maybe start working through their issues haha~

I don’t think they started totally from scratch today. They seemed to settle into what might indicate their routine much faster, although I suppose only time will tell. And they maybe seem to be doing a bit better? It’s hard to tell. The rescue piggy is still a major resource hog and doesn’t seem to want my girl anywhere near her, although she’s not aggressive about it. And my girl has been a little more confident in herself, not cowering as much and teeth chattering back while also not becoming aggressive. But it’s still not a great situation. I’m going to leave them together for longer to see if they can work it out, so I guess we’ll see!

 

[rmanuel]

Sorry I missed this! Even though I have it set to notify me when there are replies, it didn’t…

I did end up separating them and I’m actually trying again today. I think I expected less of an ambiguous experience, based on past experiences where it has been obvious from the get-go whether a pair will get along or not, so I hadn’t budgeted enough time to work through a really long bonding process. And I didn’t trust them in the bonding cage alone all night as well as the next day while I was at work, especially as my girl has a history of getting stress-induced gut stasis (my first ever visit to the vet was because of this when I first got her as a baby!).

My girl was VERY happy to be separated. She immediately pooped a whole load in the corner of her hay pile and started eating and drinking and bopping around comfortably. And the rescue piggy acted quite ambivalent about being separated. I managed to squish her cage in next to my girl’s (had to move some furniture around temporarily) so that they could at least communicate in the meantime and maybe start working through their issues haha~

I don’t think they started totally from scratch today. They seemed to settle into what might indicate their routine much faster, although I suppose only time will tell. And they maybe seem to be doing a bit better? It’s hard to tell. The rescue piggy is still a major resource hog and doesn’t seem to want my girl anywhere near her, although she’s not aggressive about it. And my girl has been a little more confident in herself, not cowering as much and teeth chattering back while also not becoming aggressive. But it’s still not a great situation. I’m going to leave them together for longer to see if they can work it out, so I guess we’ll see!

I’m also wondering, I guess, whether there are any circumstances where you can tell a bond is not working for reasons other than aggression? Essentially, based on all their behaviors, the rescue piggy seems fine with my piggy’s presence as long as she doesn’t actually interact with her, and my piggy is acting a bit like she’s in a cage with a predator... Like, the rescue piggy will kick her out of all the hideys, and my piggy won’t know where to go, so she just sits in a corner. She’s currently frozen in the middle of the hay pile because she got kicked out of her hidey, and the rescue piggy is letting her be there because she’s eating pellets right now, but I expect at some point she’ll decide she wants her out and then kick her out of there, too. I mean, I feel like I’m saying a lot of negative things about this relationship, but also everything I read seems to say things like, as long as they’re not aggressive, it’ll probably work out. But is that always the case? I have this rescue piggy on a 2-week trial, and I’m afraid what will happen is that this drags on until something happens and I have to separate them, and then I’ll be stuck with 2 piggies who can’t live together, and I don’t really have the room for that. But also maybe they’ll figure it out? Has anybody had any experience with something like?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Are they in a permanent cage or a neutral territory bonding pen?
If they are in a bonding pen then there should not be any hides in use. Adding hides into a bonding pen creates territories and territories in a neutral bonding pen is the complete opposite of what you want. They can then choose not to interact positively and instead go on the defensive of their territories which is setting them off on a bad footing.
You can only add double exit hides once they have a settled bond and have moved back to the permanent cage.

The rescue sow, never having had a friend, possibly doesn’t know how she should react. Your sow, being older, can be less willing to accept new company - we unfortunately do see this occur with older sows.

The fact they were happier separated on its own is a big sign that the bond probably isn’t going to work out, and then seemingly choosing not to interact is another negative sign.

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated Bonding Dynamics and Behaviours

 

[rmanuel]

Are they in a permanent cage or a neutral territory bonding pen?
If they are in a bonding pen then there should not be any hides in use. Adding hides into a bonding pen creates territories and territories in a neutral bonding pen is the complete opposite of what you want. They can then choose not to interact positively and instead go on the defensive of their territories which is setting them off on a bad footing.
You can only add double exit hides once they have a settled bond and have moved back to the permanent cage.

The rescue sow, never having had a friend, possibly doesn’t know how she should react. Your sow, being older, can be less willing to accept new company - we unfortunately do see this occur with older sows.

The fact they were happier separated on its own is a big sign that the bond probably isn’t going to work out, and then seemingly choosing not to interact is another negative sign.

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated Bonding Dynamics and Behaviours

Oh, interesting. I’ve read that, after the first introduction, you can add things like tunnels and hides with multiple entrances to the bonding pen, which is what I put in after the first couple hours (before that it was just water and a pile of hay in the middle). Their behavior didn’t change much between adding the hideys and not, but before I added the hideys, they were both trying to hide in the hay pile, and that was definitely not working out haha~

I keep going back and forth about giving them more time to work it out versus calling it now because they both have such good personalities and they obviously don’t want to hurt each other. But also my girl is getting older and showing the signs of age, so I do worry about what a long, stressful bonding could do to her health-wise, especially if it’s not going to work out in the end. But I also want to give both her and the rescue piggy their best chance at living a happy life. So I keep waffling back and forth with the decision…

 

[Piggies&buns]

In a bonding, there is no ‘first introduction’ because that implies there will be a second and the reality is that there shouldn’t be.
A bonding is a one time event: they go into neutral territory (without hides) and they either get on and bond there and then or they don’t.
If they do bond in neutral territory, then they get moved straight into their permanent cage together and at that point you can add hides.
If they don’t bond in neutral territory after one time, then it’s a failure, they are separated and you don’t usually try again. Piggies who don’t like each other and can’t bond, don’t change their mind by repeatedly trying or by leaving them together in the hope they will sort it out eventually.
As you are trying again, you still don’t add hides while they are in neutral territory.

Are they still together?
Has there been any chance for the positive (ie grooming, speaking to each other, any interactions at all) since your last post?

I’m also wondering, I guess, whether there are any circumstances where you can tell a bond is not working for reasons other than aggression? Essentially, based on all their behaviors, the rescue piggy seems fine with my piggy’s presence as long as she doesn’t actually interact with her, and my piggy is acting a bit like she’s in a cage with a predator... Like, the rescue piggy will kick her out of all the hideys, and my piggy won’t know where to go, so she just sits in a corner. She’s currently frozen in the middle of the hay pile because she got kicked out of her hidey,

Yes, there are ways to tell a bonding isn’t working without seeing aggression: and it does sound like you are seeing them -
- refusal to interact
- being scared and frozen in a corner
- was happier when they were separated.

it is unusual for sows to have fights so you sometimes do have to read between the other behaviours.
Obviously it’s harder for us as we cannot see and can only go by your written word - but my concerns here are the fact she keeps out the way when they are together and that she was happier when you separated them. If this has gone on for a long time with no improvement then I would definitely be calling it a failure based on the behaviours you are reporting.

 

[rmanuel]

In a bonding, there is no ‘first introduction’ because that implies there will be a second and the reality is that there shouldn’t be.
A bonding is a one time event: they go into neutral territory (without hides) and they either get on and bond there and then or they don’t.
If they do bond in neutral territory, then they get moved straight into their permanent cage together and at that point you can add hides.
If they don’t bond in neutral territory after one time, then it’s a failure, they are separated and you don’t usually try again. Piggies who don’t like each other and can’t bond, don’t change their mind by repeatedly trying or by leaving them together in the hope they will sort it out eventually.
As you are trying again, you still don’t add hides while they are in neutral territory.

Are they still together?
Has there been any chance for the positive (ie grooming, speaking to each other, any interactions at all) since your last post?



Yes, there are ways to tell a bonding isn’t working without seeing aggression: and it does sound like you are seeing them -
- refusal to interact
- being scared and frozen in a corner
- was happier when they were separated.

it is unusual for sows to have fights so you sometimes do have to read between the other behaviours.
Obviously it’s harder for us as we cannot see and can only go by your written word - but my concerns here are the fact she keeps out the way when they are together and that she was happier when you separated them. If this has gone on for a long time with no improvement then I would definitely be calling it a failure based on the behaviours you are reporting.

By “first introduction,” I didn’t mean first as in first, second, etc. I meant first as in, like, when they’re initially introduced. Just the beginning. Sorry, that might be my stupid U.S. English causing the misunderstanding haha~

Thank you so much for all the clear information. I feel like there is a lot of conflicting information when I search for it. Some say “leave them there as long as they aren’t aggressive and they’ll work it out,” some say “if they don’t work it out right away, separate them and do scent swapping, put their cages next to each other, and try again after a few days,” some say other things. It’s hard to sift through to know what’s true or not when I’m so new to this. So your information and advice is so helpful.

I did end up separating them again because things were just not improving, I was seeing no positive signs, and once again they seemed happy to be separated, my girl especially. So I’ll be unfortunately returning the rescue piggy to the rescue. I think she will be snatched up super quickly because she is such a sweetheart, not getting along with my girl notwithstanding, so I’m not too worried. I just wish we could’ve been her forever family. The hunt for a partner piggy continues on, and now hopefully I am better equipped knowledge-wise to handle it! Thank you again!

 

[Piggies&buns]

It can be confusing.
So the bonding process is that you have them side by side for a few days or even a few weeks before you actually carry out the bonding. This allows them to get to know each other and importantly to settle in. There is little benefit in bonding while one piggy is new to the environment as they will be scared so you are then increasing the chances of fear based bond failure.
You then do one neutral territory meeting and see it through to conclusion whether that is success or failure.
You should never do scent swapping. We find that this usually increases the chances of failure. Piggies are territorial so finding the scent of another in their space will set them on high alert. To then meet the piggy from whom the scent came (even in neutral territory) is likely to cause them to recognise them as an invader and then you’re on the wrong foot for a bonding right from the very first moment.

So yes leaving them together to work it out is absolutely what you do but that only works if they are interacting and trying to bond.
(Obviously actual fighting is an outright failure.
Aggression can be based in fear).
A complete refusal to interact, share space or show any positive signs then if after many hours things are not improving then they are not likely to improve.