Bonding in cage! help!

vmorin918

vmorin918

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So we introduced a bonded female pair, to our bonded female pair. Typical dominance behavior came out, I let them sort it out while I wiped down the cage, changed the fleece, put 4 of everything in there, etc. All of a sudden the “matriarch” started CHASING the 2 new ones, biting at them (I found patches of fur on the fleece). I don’t know what happened or if this is normal. They were all fine in the “neutral pen”. I haven’t found any blood, could they be sorting out who is in charge all over again in the cage? it’s a 3x4, with a 3x2 kitchen area.
 
How long did you give them in the bonding pen?
Have you seen the bonding information thread on the forum?
It’s very helpful.
I bonded 2 pairs of sows and the 2 middle piggies took about 2 weeks to sort themselves out. There was some nipping and some fur pulling during this time.
One of the bonding experts will be along with better advice.
Bonding can be very stressful for us slaves
 
How are the pair behaving in terms of submission to top pig? Nipping is normal, as @Merab's Slave said, but I don’t know if ripping out fur is a step too far. The nipping is just another way of putting them in their place.

Has the chasing settled down/stopped at all or it’s been constant? Bear in mind that the hierarchy behaviour can go on for up to two weeks.

Someone more knowledgable will be along in good time to answer more fully.
 
So they were in the bonding pen for 4 hours. Here is the run down of piggies:

Buffy (the mother) 1.5 yrs old.
Winnie (her daughter) 4 months old

Luna (new piggy)- 10 mos
Rosie (new piggy) - 10 mos

Buffy has been the aggressor all day. They’ve now been in the cage for an hour, I put in 2 plates each having lettuce, green peppers and cucumbers. Buffy chased the new girls around, (that’s when I saw the fur bits on the floor) but right now nobody has made a peep for about 10-15min. (Luna has been the recipient of most of the dominant behavior).
 
There is a guide below which may help (although you may already have seen it before now!)
Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?

There is also this thread from earlier today which is fairly similar. Here you will see that wiebke explains that bonding sows can actually be tricky
Trouble accepting new additions

Also consider that while in the neutral pen, the newcomers weren’t in buffy’s territory but in the cage they are. Wiping down etc doesn’t necessarily stop her from thinking it’s her cage and seeing them as invaders. She may also just not want anybody else in her group.

Bonding goes on a long time (2-3 weeks) after the initial introduction so a certain amount of dominance behaviour will be seen for quite some time.

How are they behaving now?
 
They quieted down. Buffy and Winnie put themselves in the loft and the new girls were downstairs.

You raise very good points, we just got nervous because Buffy was way more aggressive in the cage than in the neutral pen.
 
Buffy keeps chasing Luna. around and around the cage. Luna is squealing like crazy and I saw some fur on Buffy’s chin that obviously came from Luna.
 
The squealing is submissive. She’s basically saying she knows Buddy is the ‘master’. I’d read those guides above thoroughly and see.

Out of interest, when you put the food in, did Buffy chase the newcomers away? I would do four plates and space them out do they can’t be hogged. And did you rearrange the layout and wash any fleece hides?

You may have to resign yourself to the fact that she won’t accept the pair. How old is she?
 
Siikibam said:
The squealing is submissive. She’s basically saying she knows Buddy is the ‘master’. I’d read those guides above thoroughly and see.

Out of interest, when you put the food in, did Buffy chase the newcomers away? I would do four plates and space them out do they can’t be hogged. And did you rearrange the layout and wash any fleece hides?

You may have to resign yourself to the fact that she won’t accept the pair. How old is she?
Click to expand...


I put the food on two big paper plates and separated them. Buffy ate from one, everyone else ate from the other lol When they were in their pen earlier I gave them lettuce and carrots and everyone was fine.

I washed/wiped everything, the hidey’s went into the neutral pen earlier, and then went into the cage. The cage has brand new fleece, washed/dried multiple times but hasn’t been used yet.
 
All you can really do is read the guides so you can assess the behaviour you are seeing, observe them and then make a decision as to whether buffy is happy to have new piggies in her group.
 
You sound as if you’re doing everything right.
It does come down to personality.
The submissive squealing can be scary when you hear it first.
I thought mine was being murdered!

My middle 2 tussled frequently for nearly 2 weeks.
Jemimah ended up missing tiny tufts of fur - no blood though.
Priscilla was all attitude and I was in panic mode.

When they sorted themselves out they became best friends.

We had another bout of dominance tussling when top pig Merab died. I think they decided to share the role.

Hang on in there and keep asking questions here.
I survived because of the support and guidance of the forum.
 
Merab's Slave said:
You sound as if you’re doing everything right.
It does come down to personality.
The submissive squealing can be scary when you hear it first.
I thought mine was being murdered!

My middle 2 tussled frequently for nearly 2 weeks.
Jemimah ended up missing tiny tufts of fur - no blood though.
Priscilla was all attitude and I was in panic mode.

When they sorted themselves out they became best friends.

We had another bout of dominance tussling when top pig Merab died. I think they decided to share the role.

Hang on in there and keep asking questions here.
I survived because of the support and guidance of the forum.
Click to expand...


I think I’m overly worried. I usually am with my animals. I just don’t want anything really bad to happen to any of them, and I worried poor Luna is being stressed to death by Buffy chasing and nipping and pulling fur out.

Woke up this morning and Luna has hidden/burrowed under a corner of the fleece, everyone else was just chillin. I took Luna out of the burrito twice, and she just found a way back in. I think that’s her safe spot, she probably think Buffy won’t see her lol
 
It's not pleasant being bottom pig when hierarchy is being sorted. Meg never had this problem as she was always bottom pig. When she was born she was the only sow out of 3 so she happily took the bottom place (shop pregnancy). Now I have 4 pigs she has Christian as her husboar and her other brother Dennis is husboar to The Ever Beautiful Betsy. (Mum Velvet is now :yikes: :yikes: DA BOSS:yikes::yikes: of Rainbow World).
 
**UPDATE** It is now 7:45am, my husband and I have been up for an hour. Buffy just went over and started sniffing Luna’s burrito, Luna let out a few half-assed squeals, and Buffy just LAID DOWN NEXT TO HER TO SLEEP.

Could have knocked me over with a feather. I know this means nothing, and in 5 minutes can be back to squabbling but I’m just soaking this moment in. Perhaps FINALLY Buffy has realized that nobody is actually challenging her lol (and nobody has. everyone has steered clear and not one pig - not even her own daughter- has even tried to be dominant with Buffy).
 

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*SECOND UPDATE*

That didn’t last long. Buffy uncovered Luna from her burrito and lunged at her twice and then chased her around the cage until she ran up to the loft with the others.

I just don’t know if this would ever stop. It’s constant. Buffy has always been kind of a bully but we figured it was partially because her daughter was annoying her kind of thing. I know it can take a couple weeks but it’s like she has singled Luna out and will not leave her alone AT ALL.
 
vmorin918 said:
*SECOND UPDATE*

That didn’t last long. Buffy uncovered Luna from her burrito and lunged at her twice and then chased her around the cage until she ran up to the loft with the others.

I just don’t know if this would ever stop. It’s constant. Buffy has always been kind of a bully but we figured it was partially because her daughter was annoying her kind of thing. I know it can take a couple weeks but it’s like she has singled Luna out and will not leave her alone AT ALL.
Click to expand...

As we have said, bonding does take a few weeks but if it is going to be relentless bullying, then that isn’t good for anybody. Do re-read the sow behaviour guides so get some insight into the behaviour
 
Piggies&buns said:
There is a guide below which may help (although you may already have seen it before now!)
Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?

There is also this thread from earlier today which is fairly similar. Here you will see that wiebke explains that bonding sows can actually be tricky
Trouble accepting new additions

Also consider that while in the neutral pen, the newcomers weren’t in buffy’s territory but in the cage they are. Wiping down etc doesn’t necessarily stop her from thinking it’s her cage and seeing them as invaders. She may also just not want anybody else in her group.

Bonding goes on a long time (2-3 weeks) after the initial introduction so a certain amount of dominance behaviour will be seen for quite some time.

How are they behaving now?
Click to expand...

How long do we let the behavior go on of chasing and fur biting? The 2 new piggies have burrowed under the fleece to hide away from Buffy, the terror. She seems to target one in particular, Luna, but both new piggies have never made an aggressive move towards Buffy. Is it too early to tell if this is “normal”? The lady we got them from wants them to go to a new home so she said if they don’t get along we could bring them back to her house anytime before tomorrow night (so that leaves about 12 hours). I know “bonding” can take weeks but are there any early red flags or is this all normal?
 
Piggies&buns said:
All I can really suggest, given we can’t see what is actually happening is that you read the guides below. Particularly this first one. There is a section, I think it is section 3 - bonding relating to sows, which should help you in deciding whether the behaviour you are seeing suggests whether it is too far for it to work out.

Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)

Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
Click to expand...

Yes, I’ve read the articles. My oldest pig is chasing, chattering, nipping (which results in her getting a mouthful of fur) and what I call “terrorizing” the new pigs. They’re hiding, under the fleece, trying not to get chased, they want no part of this. It’s been 24 hours since being introduced and it hasn’t stopped.

I was considering putting them all back in the neutral play pen but separating it into 2 equal spaces with Buffy the aggressor on one side.
 
So we put everyone back in the playpen, with a divider in the middle for a couple hours. (our existing 2 on one side, new girls on the other) then we removed the divider and made a central feeding area in the middle. hay, scattered lettuce, carrots, and a plate of some small fruit pieces (watermelon, pineapple, couple grapes) and they all nibbled on that. Nobody was fighting, lunging, chasing, etc. like they were in the cage. We left them in the play pen overnight, so as of right now they’ve spent 16 hours straight in the play pen together and everyone is copacetic.

It’s 8:15am here now, so I think we will leave them in the play pen until about lunch time and then try to move them back in the cage again.

Thanks everyone for letting me carry on about this :)
 
Hope that having somewhere to carry on is helping you.
At least here we do understand what it’s like so please do talk as much as you need to.
Hope the girls are going to settle together now.
 
It's not easy.
I tried 2 times 2nd time against advise to bond 2x2 girls. ages 1.2 and 4.6 years.
It was a battle one that after 15 mins I had to separate them. my runt shocked me as she became very vocal and was having none of it.
For 2 days after they were biting bars and rumbling aggressive. . it failed.
Now they live next to each other and been known to kiss tho bars and it's lovely but I can't risk it again.
I wish you all the best. xx
 
David Piggie Lover said:
It's not easy.
I tried 2 times 2nd time against advise to bond 2x2 girls. ages 1.2 and 4.6 years.
It was a battle one that after 15 mins I had to separate them. my runt shocked me as she became very vocal and was having none of it.
For 2 days after they were biting bars and rumbling aggressive. . it failed.
Now they live next to each other and been known to kiss tho bars and it's lovely but I can't risk it again.
I wish you all the best. xx
Click to expand...

I’m glad yours are happy living together but separate! I’m not holding my breath, everything seems okay in the play pen (I’m not sure if it’s because it’s still “neutral territory” and the oldest pig is aggressive in the cage because it’s “her territory”) but I’ll give them 24 straight hours in the play pen and move them all into the cage tonight. Maybe everyone just needed more introduction time before being put in the cage.
 
If it doesn’t work you could still keep the new girls. A stacked cage or side by side if you have the space. Good luck!
 
They have been in the pen for about 30 straight hours. Things were perfectly fine, everyone had zoomies, took naps at the same time, no chasing, lunging etc.

I put everyone back in the cage and Buffy the bully is back at it like before. Chasing, chattering, nipping, rumble strutting, etc. When they are in the play pen everything is perfectly fine so this is baffling. I know she might feel like she needs to defend her territory and they need to sort out a hierarchy but it seemed like all that was done in the pen.
 
vmorin918 said:
They have been in the pen for about 30 straight hours. Things were perfectly fine, everyone had zoomies, took naps at the same time, no chasing, lunging etc.

I put everyone back in the cage and Buffy the bully is back at it like before. Chasing, chattering, nipping, rumble strutting, etc. When they are in the play pen everything is perfectly fine so this is baffling. I know she might feel like she needs to defend her territory and they need to sort out a hierarchy but it seemed like all that was done in the pen.
Click to expand...

Sorting out the hierarchy and establishing their relationship takes a few weeks even after initial introductions seem to go well.
Chasing, rumbling etc are normal dominance behaviours, but if it looks like it is more than that and it looks like buffy just isn’t going to accept them, then being separated and living as to separate pairs will be your alternative.
 
I’m sorry I keep carrying on lol You probably think I’m a broken record. It looks like this morning the new pigs kept themselves hidden and burrowed under the fleece last night. At what point do you call it a failed bonding? if the behavior continues for 2 weeks? 3?
 
Don’t worry, we are always here to help.
If they aren’t happy, then I’d separate them out sooner rather than later. No point in them being made miserable if buffy just isn’t going to accept them. You don’t want them to become withdrawn and their health to suffer efc
 
Should I separate out just Buffy the dominant one by herself? I might give it at least a few more days. I work from home, so I can always keep an eye on them to monitor if things are gradually improving or staying the same. I’m wondering if it’s a space thing. The play pen is like a 2x7 (the grids in the pen are 12 inches not 14inches like the cage).

The cage is a 3x4 (14 inch grids) with a 3x2 loft where the kitchen area is so the bottom is all free space.
 
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