Bonding Males

[Tfortner2496]

Hi everyone! This is my first post here
I have 3 male guinea pigs Humphrey, Zuko, and Scabbers.
Humphrey was my first pig and after doing some research I decided to get him a friend ~8 months later which is when I got Zuko.
The 2 have been living together mostly in harmony since then.
Scabbers came into the picture because a coworker of mine did not take good care of him and wanted to get rid of him so I just couldn't say no. He is about the same age as my other 2 boys maybe a little bit older.
All 3 pigs got along during introductions in neutral territory and I built a huge cage for them to live in together.
It went well at first and Humphrey (who was the submissive before) seems to get along with Scabbers (the new guy) fine aside from the typical dominance dance.
Zuko on the other hand is not getting along with Scabbers as well and I don't know how long I should let them try to work out dominance before determining if it is not going to work.
Scabbers definitely seems to be the most aggressive of all 3 of them and Zuko now sprints away and shrieks when Scabbers gets close. Zuko has no wounds that I can see and it doesn't ever seem like Scabbers is hurting him but he shrieks so loudly that it concerns me. He also seems to cower if he gets cornered which makes me think it's more of a bullying thing than the typical dominance display. It doesn't seem like he is being kept from food or water but whenever Scabbers walk by Zuko he freezes. Should I separate them and put them in separate cages again? I have 2 food bowls and 2 water bottles and 3 hideys as well. Photo of the cage for reference. Any tips?

 

[Piggies&buns]

It can be almost impossible to keep three males pigs together harmoniously. The failure rate for a trio of boars is around 90%. Boars should be kept in pairs.
The loud shrieking is a sign of submission and is not a cause for concern in itself, but as I say keeping three boys together is incredibly difficult. Mostly it ends up with outright fights. As there are usually two piggies who want to have the top dominant pig position. It doesn’t sound like that is what is happening here but Underlying bullying is going to be a cause for concern and means that one piggy is always going to be unhappy or left out. Signs of bullying are constant mounting and chasing, a piggy being chased away from the food. It’s good that all your piggies are able to eat but if one seems unhappy then you need to consider whether the relationship working.
How old are they?
Do you weigh them regularly to be certain that all piggies are being allowed to eat properly - over 80% of their daily food intake needs to be from hay and you cannot gauge their they are getting enough by eye.

 

[Wiebke]

HI!

I fully agree with @Piggies&buns .

Please take the time to read these guides here so you understand better what is going on, the issues that are involved and what options you have:
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

 

[Tfortner2496]

Thanks guys! @Piggies&buns @Wiebke They have been together since Sunday and today is Thursday so I'm not sure how long I should wait it out to see if it's going to work? My first 2 pigs warmed up to each other really quickly but this is taking longer! They seem to slowly be getting more used to each other. Humphrey is about 2 1/2 years old. Zuko is probably 2 ish. And I have no idea how old Scabbers is but he's definitely full grown. I figure that if they dont start getting along soon I'll just give up and split the cage down the middle so they can still interact. I was hoping that since they're past teenage years then they might be easier to acclimate to each other but maybe they're to the grumpy old man stage already or possibly Scabbers is still a young buck trying to assert himself. I have not weighed them recently but that's a good idea. I think Zuko would be the only one I need to keep an eye on his weight so I'll start that today.

 

[Siikibam]

It’s not about age but personality I’m afraid. So far they don’t seem to have decided they hate each other, but keep a close eye and be prepared to separate.

Another thing is they need a lot more space. The cage you have looks to be enough for two boars. So I would up the size. Also have three bowls, bottles and hay areas. They should be at least one body length apart - again, back to cage size. If you had to separate and split the cage down the middle, I don’t think it would meet the minimum size for one, let alone two boars.

Weighing weekly gives you a chance to do a health check as well. So weigh all three weekly. And when handling, feeding or dealing with them you have to stick to their hierarchy, otherwise it can cause issues. So study them and see who’s placed 1st, 2nd & 3rd.

Fingers crossed for you.

 

[Lorcan]

It’s not about age but personality I’m afraid. So far they don’t seem to have decided they hate each other, but keep a close eye and be prepared to separate.

Another thing is they need a lot more space. The cage you have looks to be enough for two boars. So I would up the size. Also have three bowls, bottles and hay areas. They should be at least one body length apart - again, back to cage size. If you had to separate and split the cage down the middle, I don’t think it would meet the minimum size for one, let alone two boars.

Weighing weekly gives you a chance to do a health check as well. So weigh all three weekly. And when handling, feeding or dealing with them you have to stick to their hierarchy, otherwise it can cause issues. So study them and see who’s placed 1st, 2nd & 3rd.

Fingers crossed for you.

Without knowing exact measurements, that whole cage looks roughly around 4x4, I see nothing that says the extended bit gets closed off regularly? That said I would put some sort of cover on that black ramp, that looks like it could cause some accidents.

 

[Siikibam]

She mentioned splitting the cage in half if they decide they don’t get on. Guesstimating using the eye, the right section looks to be about 1.5 x 3. The left looks about 3 x 2.

 

[Lorcan]

She mentioned splitting the cage in half if they decide they don’t get on. Guesstimating using the eye, the right section looks to be about 3.5 x

2x4, I used to have one. But if you took out that upper ramp (which isn't originally part of the cage on the right), the one on the left could be made a good bit bigger.

 

[Siikibam]

2x4, I used to have one. But if you took out that upper ramp (which isn't originally part of the cage on the right), the one on the left could be made a good bit bigger.

You mean the black one and he the grids on upper level? Yes that would help. But with three boys space is a much needed thing. Even though they’re older it can still have a big impact on their bond.

Hope my messages make sense. I posted the previous one as I dozed off!

 

[Lorcan]

You mean the black one and he the grids on upper level? Yes that would help. But with three boys space is a much needed thing. Even though they’re older it can still have a big impact on their bond.

Hope my messages make sense. I posted the previous one as I dozed off!

I mean, as it stands at the minute, the cage is at a 4x4 (give or take a couple of inches on the bottom of the left hand side, I can't be sure from eyeballing it). At that stage, unless they basically had the run of the whole room regularly, it's not going to make a lot of difference. It's still bigger than the recommended for what we have - if they don't get along, then they won't get along.
But if they were split, assuming that you're using the Midwest as one wall, which in itself isn't a bad idea, and again assuming there's 4-6 grids making up that loft (again I can't tell from the photo, but the Midwest doesn't come with a loft like that so I'm assuming 2 for the base and 4 for the sides) then that one on the left gets to be an easy 2x6 for a pair of boys, then the 2x4 for the 3rd one.

 

[Siikibam]

I get you. I think being three boys adding more space COULD help with the current times. And they need it anyway. By the time you add all the hides, there wouldn’t be much space in a smaller cage for running around.

 

[Tfortner2496]

My grids are 14 inches each so the one side is the midwest cage at 2x4' with the added loft at 1'2"x 2' (since it overlaps a little to fit on one side) and the other half of the cage is 3.5' × 2 1/3' and I plan on making the loft on that side as well which would end up being 1'2"x 2'4" which is a lot of random specific measurements but you get the jist.

I tried to put the food bowls as far away as possible from each other and Scabbers will still try to dominate the food bowl if he walks by but isn't usually super aggressive. I thought about putting one on the loft but that sounds like asking for trouble.

If I were to separate them do you think introduction and assimilation would be possible later down the road or is it a lost cause at that point? It makes me sad seeing Zuko so scared of him so that might just be a more harmonious way to go. I really wanted Scabbers to get along and get to live with my boys but neighbors might be better for their(and my) peace of mind.

 

[Lorcan]

Honestly if it were me and they did get separated I wouldn't bother with the loft, and I'd use those grids to make the left hand side (not the Midwest) bigger. A 2x4 isn't really a good amount of room for two boars unless they're practically joined at the hip, and if Scabbers is okay with throwing his weight around, I'd say that doesn't apply here.
They don't need a loft and it doesn't count as floor space where cage sizes are concerned, the only floor space that counts will be on the ground. A bigger cage will help out the two that stay together enormously.

 

[Piggies&buns]

My grids are 14 inches each so the one side is the midwest cage at 2x4' with the added loft at 1'2"x 2' (since it overlaps a little to fit on one side) and the other half of the cage is 3.5' × 2 1/3' and I plan on making the loft on that side as well which would end up being 1'2"x 2'4" which is a lot of random specific measurements but you get the jist.

I tried to put the food bowls as far away as possible from each other and Scabbers will still try to dominate the food bowl if he walks by but isn't usually super aggressive. I thought about putting one on the loft but that sounds like asking for trouble.

If I were to separate them do you think introduction and assimilation would be possible later down the road or is it a lost cause at that point? It makes me sad seeing Zuko so scared of him so that might just be a more harmonious way to go. I really wanted Scabbers to get along and get to live with my boys but neighbors might be better for their(and my) peace of mind.

Usually, once piggies decide they don’t want to live together, nothing will change that. If you separate, it is highly likely that it is a separation for life.
I agree with @Siikibam in that this isn’t outright hatred of each other - if it was, you would likely have seen clear cut problems by now, but underlying fear, bullying, intimidation etc does not make for harmonious living conditions And it may turn into something more serious. These are the issues with trying a trio, it just more often than not doesn’t work out.
Do just double check that Zuko and Humphrey still have their relationship in tact before you separate scabbers out to be on his own. In some cases, once a trio has been attempted, as well as the bonds with the newcomer not working, the bond between the original pair can also be affected, so do just check that they are still ok with each other. (You don’t mention any problems between them so hopefully there isn’t, but I thought it worth mentioning)

I also wouldn’t bother with a loft. A large single level floor space is essential and bigger is always better in that respect. A loft doesn’t count towards the cage size.

 

[Tfortner2496]

Thankfully having Scabbers around has not affected Humphrey and Zukos bond much. They still sleep together and share the food bowl and veggies with no mind to each other Humphrey just books it outta there when Scabbers decides to pick on Zuko. I'll probably use my couple extra grids to make their side of the cage bigger for more room to romp around. Thanks for all of your help!