Bonding Minnie

[Stewybus]

Hi everyone, I thought you may be interested in Minnie's bonding story.

I first heard about her on TGPF after her previous piggy companion had passed away & left her alone. I offered to re-home her with my girls who were down to 3 after the sad loss of Madam. After getting everything organised, I picked her up on Sunday April 7th & the story continues below:-

DAY 1:
Set my outdoor run in the conservatory next to the girls indoor run & Minnie was placed inside to get a feeling for her new temporary home. Introduced her to my smallest girl, Mousey but things went bad within minutes with Mousey ending up with a mouthful of Minnie's hair. There was no way they were going to settle so took Mousey out & left Minnie to settle down after this scare.

After a while I introduced her to the Alpha female, Mother & they weren't too bad together though Minnie was very cautious after her time wiyh Mousey. There was a bit of chasing but no serious aggro. Here's a pic of them together

Things went a little bad at teatime when I gave them their veggies. Mother kept standing between the food & Minnie so I took her out at about 7pm & let Minnie have a little peace & quiet. Considering her day which probably hadn't been her best she ate well & had settled down by the time I went to bed.

DAY 2:
Monday is a very busy day for me so didn't have time to carry on with the bonding till after tea. At 7pm I introduced Minnie to mid ranked piggy, Minky. Minky can be a little awkward so I sat in the conservatory with them till 10pm. It was remarkable because they were OK with each other straightaway although I had put a handful of fresh grass in the centre of the run & they were eating together like old buddies. Minnie was still a little wary & Minky did try & chase her a couple of times but couldn't catch her. I put the house back in & they were soon settled down together in the house. See pic.

They were so good with each other that I took a chance on leaving them together overnight. I also put a snugly sleeping bag type house in the opposite corner in case Minnie needed her own space and left them for the night.

DAY 3:
Up early at 5am & checked to see how they'd got on. Minky was in the house & Minnie was in the snugly bag. There was no sign of any overnight commotion & when I took their veggies in they were straight out eating together then went back into the wooden house. Had to do some work but came in with fresh grass at about 11am which they promptly cleared. Then at about 4pm brought in some more fresh grass & brought Mother in with them & they were all great eating together. See pic.

After the grass was gone, Mother decided to chase Minnie once but wasn't too bad after that. When it came to the evening veggies I put Mother back with Mousey. Minnie & Minky have been great since then & I'm just about to leave them for the night. Looks like I've got 2 bonded pairs now. A bit more work to do though. I'll add more tomorrow night.

 

[Bekki]

Minnie looks well mini next to those two :-)

 

[Claire W]

Thank you for sharing your story Your piggies are lovely and I just love their names. I hope that you eventually end up with a group of four. Good luck x

 

[Stewybus]

I originally posted this thread in the wrong section so no replies showed up. It's now in the correct section. I'm learning more about TGPF all the time.

The story continues:-

DAY 4:
Minky & Minnie were still OK with each other, just a slight jump occasionally. As I'd had another busy day
I didn't do much with the bonding till about 4pm. Minky & Minnie were already in the run with a pile of fresh grass & I put Mother & Mousey in the carrying case & opened this at the door of the run so they could come & go as they pleased. Mother got straight out & started eating with them, then Minky got into the carrying case with Mousey who was still eating a little grass left from when I coaxed them into the case. There was a little commotion in the case. Meanwhile back in the run Mother decided to chase Minnie who was too fast for her to catch so Mother got back into the carrying case & had a go at Minky. I thought it was time to call it a day so rescued Minky & put her back in with Minnie. These 2 seem perfectly bonded now. Here's another pic.


I've got a predicament now. I had 3 bonded girls + 1 new one. I've now got 2 bonded pairs but 2 of the original trio have fallen out with the 3rd one. Has this happened with anyone else.

Another thing that probably hasn't helped with the bonding. I had a problem with Mousey on Sunday, just before I introduced her to Minnie it looks like she may have hurt her foot or possibly one of her front claws which she got caught in some vet bed. That may account for her temper. She wasn't putting any weight on her right front paw but seemed OK on Monday morning only to start not putting weight on at about 12. I've had her to the vets where they think she may have damaged her claw & she's on Metacam for a few days. If it's no better I have to take her back on Friday morning. While at the vets I registered Minnie but hopefully she won't need to go for quite a while. I usually take them all in every 6 months for a check up.

Tomorrow I'm going to split the large run into 2 & suspend the bonding until Mousey is OK.


DAY 5:

This is cleaning out day so I moved Minnie & Minky & their run into the living room. I placed a large pile of grass in the centre then put Mother in with them. I kept Mousey in a carrying case because of her poorly foot.

At first the 3 all ate peacefully but then Mother wanted to show her dominance, chasing Minnie & Minky so after a few minutes of this getting worse I took her out & put her back with Mousey. I just can't watch them fight.

After getting the big run ready, this time with a divider in the middle, I weighed them all. Minnie had actually put weight on. She was 888g on Sunday but now she was 938g. A good sign that she's not too upset. I then put them as pairs in the run. Here's a pic:-



After a while Minky was getting a little dominant, not allowing Minnie into the house so I put Minnie's Strawberry house in the run & Minnie went into it but Minky just followed her & chased her out. I took this house out & put the snugly house in but Minnie seems happy just sitting on top of the house or sitting in the corner eating hay. By 10pm they had settled down with Minnie still chomping hay in the corner so lights out & left them for the night.

I'll add Day 6 either tonight or 1st thing tomorrow.

 

[Toffeewoffee]

Is the plant o have a group of 4? Sometimes you need to just let them get on with it, i know its not nice, but always remember, it is natural behaviour to them, and all the shrieks and scream you hear 9 times of of 10 are just for effect, not a noise from pain. Good luck x

 

[Stewybus]

Yes, that's the plan but because of Mousey's poorly foot I'm putting it off for 2 weeks so she has chance to heal. The vet suspects a broken toe which should heal by itself. By then they'll be used to each others sounds & smells living in close proximity. I'll just sit on the sidelines when I put them all in together & only referee if it's very bad.

The bonding is not quite complete with Minky & Minnie but these should be fully bonded when I open up the run.

 

[Bekki]

Get well soon Mousey :-)

It took weeks for Minnie and Twirl to settle, with loads of fur pulling, rubblestrutting!, and chasing. Minnie accepted the lower position in teh group. It will take time for the new hierachy to establish itself and to see if Minnie will take bottom spot or fight for higher, with my Twirl and her previous herd she was bottom piggy :-) Her weights sounds right she was 900-950 here :-)

 

[Stewybus]

Well this morning it's Minnie who's got the upper hand. She has the house & Minky is next to it in the corner. Full details & another pic later.

 

[Sodapops]

I bonded a trio (neutered male and 2 girls) with a bonded pair of girls (mother and daughter). From what you've said it doesn't sound like there has been any outright fighting. Sows need to sort out an hierarchy for things to work - there's always a top sow and until the order of piggies is established it can look/sound pretty brutal, your top sow will try to push her 'under sows' as far as she can to work out a stable bond/relationship.

I know it's tempting to jump in when they are chasing one another/screaming but you do have sit it out if you want to see how things progress - as weibke said in one of your other threads the best way forward would be to bond them as a group - because doing as you are you've ended up with 2 pairs as opposed to the group.

Before i started properly bonding i did loads of little meetings - JJ lived with Summer (mother and daughter who were very closely bonded) when i would put them back as a pair at the end of any bonding session JJ would nip/chase Summer. I thought very much the same as you that id broken the bond between them - actually what was happening was JJ was asserting her authority, when living as a pair she had no need to, but in a group situation there has to be one top sow and it was evident she was going to take up that position.

I had two weeks of watching them closely before things got back to normal - it was horrendous hearing the screaming, but as Toffewoffe said, a lot of the time it sounds a whole lot worse than it is.

I felt so sorry for two of my sows, 1 in particular i got very close to taking out and separating because JJ would nip/chase her every time she came near (although she was never stopped from eating drinking) - however now these two are the closet pair out of the 5 sows and regularly lie together and groom one another.

I think you best course of action would be to set a day (quite early on) and put all four together and watching them throughout the day.

Just a quick question - have you set up a new neutral territory every single time you put them together? because if you haven't then you will have a bonding area that very much smells of two pigs and then putting two more in, this will create tensions...that's why when bonding, the area should have no smells of any pig to ensure it's completely neutral/new to all piggies meaning no one piggie will have authority over the space.

Good luck

 

[Stewybus]

Thanks for your info from your experience. It is a stressful time for them & us. If you see a loved one being hurt your instinct says stop it. I'm planning to put them all in together in 2 weeks time when Mousey is better. The run will be fully cleaned & disinfected to remove any smells.

 

[shiny]

It certainly can be stressful. We have 2 young boars going through a time of deciding which one is the boss at the moment because one has now grown bigger than the other... We are watching them closely, being careful about what's inside the cage to argue about rolleyes & trying to distract with big piles of hay to eat! It's tough but no blood drawn yet & they have to sort this out for themselves so it can all settle down again.

I'm sure you will get there with your girls. The photos are gorgeous, a lovely piggy family

 

[Sodapops]

Thanks for your info from your experience. It is a stressful time for them & us. If you see a loved one being hurt your instinct says stop it. I'm planning to put them all in together in 2 weeks time when Mousey is better. The run will be fully cleaned & disinfected to remove any smells.

I sympathize with you - but as i was told they're not hurting one another, although the screams may suggest otherwise. If one or more are genuinely being hurt (with visible wounds) then you must stop the bonding immediately because the behaviour will not improve, in fact it will get worse.

A few nips and chasing is all part of the dominance process and no matter how hard it is to watch/hear you must see it through. As long as no piggie is being stopped from eating/drinking and walking freely around the cage then you have to let it pass - it does get easier.

There is of course the real possibility that all 4 will not get on a as group....

 

[Stewybus]

I was called away so had to finish last reply early.

When I first put them together it was neutral territory but I suppose that after the second day it became Minky's & Minnie's territory. It will be different next time. I'll either bring them all out into the outdoor run which will a neutral area or thoroughly clean the big run & then put them all together when it's been cleaned.

Should I remove houses/hiding places or not?

 

[Stewybus]

If at the end of the day they don't get along as a group I'll be quite happy to keep them as 2 bonded pairs. I couldn't send Minnie back now, I've become very attached to her myself.

 

[Bekki]

Has she wheeked at full volume so that you can hear her no matter where you are in the house yet? Seems a little quiet over here without her.

 

[Sodapops]

I was called away so had to finish last reply early.

When I first put them together it was neutral territory but I suppose that after the second day it became Minky's & Minnie's territory. It will be different next time. I'll either bring them all out into the outdoor run which will a neutral area or thoroughly clean the big run & then put them all together when it's been cleaned.

Should I remove houses/hiding places or not?

Were the hidey houses bought brand new? If they smell of either pig they could claim these as their own which means tension if another pig goes in/near them sparking a fight.

When i bonded my lot i didn't use hidey houses instead i gt some offcuts of fleece and clipped them to the corners of the bonding pen id set up. When i moved them to their permanent home i also didn't use any hidey houses for about 2wks. It's very easy for a piggy to become trapped and things can escalate very quickly.

If you have a supermarket nearby you could just get some empty cardboard boxes and cut out plenty of entrance/exits holes for the bonding and 1st stage of them living together - you can then just throw them away afterwards.

 

[Stewybus]

I'm still waiting for that. She's been quiet on the wheeking front. She has had chance to because as soon as I bring a carrier bag in, they know it's grass & wheek till it's in the run. I suppose we'll know when she's settled in when she starts wheeking.

 

[Stewybus]

The houses I used had been cleaned & put away in the shed in October. The snugly fleecy houses had been washed but my girls had really only laid on them in the past & not been inside. Minnie knew straightaway what it were for.

The cardboard box idea is very good, I think I'll go for that. I've used shoe boxes in the past & also the boxes that you get 12 cartons of milk in.

Yesterday Minky seemed to be on top (in more ways than on) trying to hump Minnie. But today the tables have turned.

 

[KaitRoo]

Stewy: regarding the newly bonding pairs that differ to the normal housed pairs, I experience this with my girls. When they go out in the run, Tammy (housed with Shy) seems to stick to Bella more, Mouse (housed with Bell)
and Shy follow each other around. I have been curious about if it has anything to do with size, as Bella and Tammy are my biggest pigs, and Shy and Mouse are a similar size too.

 

[Stewybus]

Stewy: regarding the newly bonding pairs that differ to the normal housed pairs, I experience this with my girls. When they go out in the run, Tammy (housed with Shy) seems to stick to Bella more, Mouse (housed with Bell)
and Shy follow each other around. I have been curious about if it has anything to do with size, as Bella and Tammy are my biggest pigs, and Shy and Mouse are a similar size too.

My 2 pairs are both mixed sizes. In approx. pounds Mother is about 3lb & Mousey 2.5lb. Minky is about 3lb & Minnie 2lb. Both pairs are very much at ease now & will often go the the bars in the middle to be near the girls on the other side.

Here's my update for yesterday.

DAY 6:
Not much happened today but it started with Minnie being dominant over Minky. Minnie had the house & Minky was outside. After their morning veggies they settled down and in the main part were happy together although Minky did seem a bit quiet. Here's a pic of them on the top level where most of the food is:-


When I gave them their afternoon grass, I put it on either side of the bars so that all 4 could eat together. I forgot to take a pic of that but will get one for next update.

I took Mousey to vets to see about her poorly foot. The vet said to keep on with the Metacam but to leave her foot to heel by itself. She said it doesn't appear to be a broken claw but more likely a fractured toe which should heel by itself. I know from experience that this is true because Mother broke her leg when she was about 6 months & it healed very quickly without anything but 2 pain killing injections & 2 weeks of Metacam.

By the end of the day Minky & Minnie were totally at ease with each other. Minnie tending to follow Minky around.

 

[KaitRoo]

Great news! Patience pays off Nice one stewy x

 

[Stewybus]

DAY 7:
Another quiet day with nothing out of the ordinary happening.

I continued feeding the grass in the middle of the run on either side of the dividing bars. This way they're getting used to feeding as a group though still in pairs. I fed them like this with small bunch of grass mid morning, mid afternoon & about 8pm. See pic:-


Minnie was always the last to leave the grass, clearing it completely. Another pic:-


Minnie has been scratching herself a little more than the other girls do. If Beks is viewing this maybe you can let me know if this is normal for her. She's scratching mainly down the middle of each side. It could be just the warm weather as the daytime temp has risen by about 5 degrees.

Tomorrow I'm going to try all the girls together in the neutral run. The mat has been cleaned so there'll be no previous smells. Mousey has now gone 4 days without any signs of pain to her foot so if the spell in the neutral run works out I may work towards getting them altogether in the big run on Thursday after I clean it out.

 

[Bekki]

She does love a good scratch :-) Obviously I cant see her but none of them here using the same bale of hay still are not scratching any more than usual x

 

[Stewybus]

She does love a good scratch :-) Obviously I cant see her but none of them here using the same bale of hay still are not scratching any more than usual x

I didn't really notice it till Thursday morning & then again today. It is warmer & I think Minnie may be in season as she's rubbing her body all over the place & being a little dominant with Minky who's trying to be laid back.

 

[Stewybus]

DAY 8:
Nothing much to report as I had a few jobs that needed to be done. I think Minnie was in season because she being more dominant with Minky & trying to mount her. By evening they had settled down.


As Mousey's front paw seems to be ok now I've gone for it & put them & put them all in the neutral run with a load of grass in the centre. It started well but then Minnie started her rumbling noise as if to say come & get me if you dare. The other 3 were more interested in the grass than Minnie. Anyway i's nearly 2 hours later & quiet at present but there's been several mini fights & loads of rumbling. Minnie ended up with hair sticking out of her mouth, not sure who's. Mother (alpha female) has been going for any of them who've gone near her & it's been quite tense. I'm planning to keep them in this run for another 2 hours & give them some food. I don't think they're ready to be left together unattended but hopefully give them 3 or 4 hours supervised time tomorrow & Wednesday & if things have calmed down, put them in the big run after I clean it on Thursday morning.

Am I doing right or is this time scale too quick. I'm away on Saturday to Mold in North Wales from early morning to early evening, about 14 hours in total. Do you think this is too early for them to be left unsupervised? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Stewybus]

I've decided not top bond Minnie with all 3 girls but because she's bonded happily with Minky to keep them as 2 bonded pairs.

After the experience of putting them all together in the neutral run, it wouldn't be fair on any of them to do this again. It ended up as a free for all with Minnie & Mother continually fighting & then both of them separately attacking (Mousey & Minky) who seems terrified whenever they got in the way. They've now been in pairs in adjacent runs since then for 11 days & are really happy together. I put their Readigrass & fresh grass at where the runs meet so that their are eating a lot as a group. There's no clawing at the bars to get at each other & they touch nose to nose without any signs of aggression.

I may try them out in the other run on the lawn when it's warmer & dryer but I think it's just a big personality clash between Mother & Minnie so I may just have to have them out in pairs.

Minnie has settled in really well having put on weight every week. She's put on over 200 grams / 6 ounces in 18 days. I think it's mainly because she now has competition for the food & a friend to eat with. She's getting much tamer & so is Minky who was always very timid towards humans when in with the others. They will both eat from my hands when feeding grass or the odd dandelion leaf. They also love dandelion stems and flowers. Minnie will also sit calmly on my lap while being groomed or stroked.

It would be nice to have them all running around together but it's maybe just not meant to be.