Bonding new guinea pigs with an old

[Pomfifa]

Hi, we had 2 sweet guinea pigs: neutered Pommes and beautiful girl Fifa for 7 months. Pommes is very quite, but Fifa was full of curiosity and energy, I would say the whole life of our family was powered by her. Unfortunately she passed away, it was unbearable for us to cope with the grief. Pommes was quite as usual, he still ate, went out of his hut for a short walk, can't actually say that he was very unhappy with the loss. Fifa was of course the dominant one in their pack. Sometimes it was even too much of her attention for him, so we had to take him out and let him chill with us on the sofa. But in any case, 2 days after Fifa was gone I have decided that we need a new piggy, officially as a company for Pommy, but frankly speaking more for me, to distract myself from grieving and focus on taking care of the piggies. So I tried to find 1 girl, but it ended up that the breeder was offering just 2 girls: a mother and a daughter. So here we are. As for the age of all pigs: Pommy is 1 year old, a mother - 10 months old, a daughter is 7 months old. Our regular guinea pigs enclosure is 1.20x0.72 m, there is a big hug for 3 and in the opposite side a hammock (pigs were also sleeping underneath) and a hut for 1 piggy. So yesterday we brought the ladies home, put him to Pommes...and I think it didn't go that well as I hoped. One ran to the big house, where Pommy was chilling, another to the small hut, he was shocked to encounter uninvited guest, left immediately the house, heading to the second hut, when realized "OMG there're 2 of them!"
I of course tried to bribe the group with lettuce and cucumber. Then it went better, he managed to squeeze in the big house and all 3 we resting there for a while. But when the girls started feeling a bit more confident and approached him to sniff, he first played his favourite defence trick "frozen Pommes" and then ran away. One girl started chasing him, he tried to escape but there was another pig on the way, then he stopped in the middle and looked straight in my eyes "what have you done!". In total they were together 5 hours, when the last 3 hours I felt that I really made a wrong move.
I took girls out for the night in our second cage (1m x 0.6 m), to assure they both don't do something bad to poor quite Pommy and that he has some rest too.

But know I am at a loss. Could anybody please advise what's the best way to handle this bonding? Because although Pommy is the host, it feels like it's he who is the new pig to this group. As for girls' characters: the daughter is definitely dominant, the mother is a bit quiet, but still too much for Pommy. I am of course considering buying bigger cage with 2 levels, maybe we let Pommy live on the second level and girls will be placed on the first.... I don't know, but I am at a loss what to do right next days

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry for your loss

All bonding needs to be on neutral territory - you cannot put new piggies into the cage of another piggy as it will be seen as a territory invasion. The introduction needs to be somewhere Pommes doesn’t see as his space - a bathroom floor for example, no hides should be put in the bonding pen, just a pile of hay.

if successful in the bonding pen, you need to thoroughly clean out the cage they are to live in and then transfer them to the cage after many hours (sometimes overnight) in the bonding pen. You can put hides in to the permament cage at that point.

It all comes down to character compatibility so whether a bonding will entirely up to the piggies, so when bonding on spec a plan b for them to live separately is always needed

Sadly, I’m afraid the cages you have arent big enough.
The minimum cage size for two piggies is 120cm x 60cm (so the cage you put the girls in doesn’t meet welfare standards) so they cannot life in there permanently if the bonding fails. but also Pommes cage isn’t big enough for the three of them to live in If the bonding is successful. Three piggies need 12 square feet, so a cage measuring 180x60cm.

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
A Closer Look At Pairs (Boars - Sows - Mixed)
Cage Size Guide

 

[Siikibam]

Hi and welcome. I'm sorry for your loss. Did you just put the girls straight into Pomme's cage? If so, this is the wrong way to go about it I'm afraid. He can see it as an invasion of his territory. When bonding, you need to put them on neutral ground where none have been, with just a pile of hay in the middle (no hides). The sows will have their own hierarchy and the boar will slot in wherever they 'let' him.

The other thing is that we recommend quarantining new piggies (over four months of age) for two weeks, in a separate room. So you need to put the mum and daughter in a separate cage and quarantine them. However, if the remaining piggy is lonely and quiet then you can forego this quarantining.

You will have to reintroduce on neutral territory and let them work it out. You have to be careful not to intervene too quickly. You've been given some good links above. Have a read of the one below as well. It gives levels of dominance. And remember both sows have to accept him for the bond to work. I hope it works out second time round.
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs

 

[Pomfifa]

Hi and welcome. I'm sorry for your loss. Did you just put the girls straight into Pomme's cage? If so, this is the wrong way to go about it I'm afraid. He can see it as an invasion of his territory. When bonding, you need to put them on neutral ground where none have been, with just a pile of hay in the middle (no hides). The sows will have their own hierarchy and the boar will slot in wherever they 'let' him.

The other thing is that we recommend quarantining new piggies (over four months of age) for two weeks, in a separate room. So you need to put the mum and daughter in a separate cage and quarantine them. However, if the remaining piggy is lonely and quiet then you can forego this quarantining.

You will have to reintroduce on neutral territory and let them work it out. You have to be careful not to intervene too quickly. You've been given some good links above. Have a read of the one below as well. It gives levels of dominance. And remember both sows have to accept him for the bond to work. I hope it works out second time round.
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs

Hi, thank you so much for the tips. Yes, unfortunately I made that mistake of putting girls straight away to Pommes, just cleaned up his enclosure beforehand
I have another room (the master piggies spot is in the living room) for the home office, will move the girls there, so they are separated from Pommes, but on the other hand I will be around so they could get used to me too. I have already ordered the bigger cage for all 3, and additionally I have extra c&c cage to build for this quarantine and then later for meeting at the neutral ground.

 

[Pomfifa]

Hi and welcome. I'm sorry for your loss. Did you just put the girls straight into Pomme's cage? If so, this is the wrong way to go about it I'm afraid. He can see it as an invasion of his territory. When bonding, you need to put them on neutral ground where none have been, with just a pile of hay in the middle (no hides). The sows will have their own hierarchy and the boar will slot in wherever they 'let' him.

The other thing is that we recommend quarantining new piggies (over four months of age) for two weeks, in a separate room. So you need to put the mum and daughter in a separate cage and quarantine them. However, if the remaining piggy is lonely and quiet then you can forego this quarantining.

You will have to reintroduce on neutral territory and let them work it out. You have to be careful not to intervene too quickly. You've been given some good links above. Have a read of the one below as well. It gives levels of dominance. And remember both sows have to accept him for the bond to work. I hope it works out second time round.
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs

Thank you for your support, is it ok for girls to stay in their current cage for 1 day? I need some time to arrange a bigger cage for them

 

[weepweeps]

Hello and welcome to the forum. I’m so sorry for your loss. I hope the bonding goes better second time around in neutral territory. Keep us posted.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you for your support, is it ok for girls to stay in their current cage for 1 day? I need some time to arrange a bigger cage for them

it’ll be fine for a day while you make arrangements.
do also have a plan b for living arrangements in mind in case the girls won’t bond with him.

 

[Pomfifa]

I and my boyfriend have decided to build the second floor for the current enclosure. It will be 120x50 cm with a way to go downstairs and the "door". This extra floor will be solely for Pommes if he doesn't accept the new company, we can simply close "the door".

 

[Piggies&buns]

I and my boyfriend have decided to build the second floor for the current enclosure. It will be 120x50 cm with a way to go downstairs and the "door". This extra floor will be solely for Pommes if he doesn't accept the new company, we can simply close "the door".

I'm afraid this won’t be suitable if he doesn’t bond with them. If he has to remain single, then his cage must remain side by side with the girls so they have companionship through the bars. Living in a two storey situation will mean he wont be able to see other piggies and will become lonely.

Two storey cages also actually lose floor space due to the ramp on both floors. 120x50 is also smaller than the minimum so when the loss of space due to the ramp is taken into account the cage falls too small.

 

[Siikibam]

You need to get a cage that’s big enough for three, as mentioned in a post anove. If it doesn’t work out, you can maybe put the girls in one section then extend for Pomme’s cage. A c&c would be good as you can build to your requirements.

 

[Piggies&buns]

If the bonding works -
You need a single level cage covering 180x60 (thats a 5x2 C&c cage) for the three of them to live in together.

If the bonding doesn’t work
- the two girls need a cage on a single level measuring a minimum of 120x60cm but 150x60 is recommended (a 2x4 c&c cage is recommended)
- Pomme will need his own cage which must be side by side with the girls measuring a minimum of 120x60cm.

Upper levels don’t count towards the cage size, so they are bonus spaces only. The bottom level of the cage needs to meet size requirements

 

[Pomfifa]

We will then try to rebuild the current cage, it's made of wood with the nice front windows. We can remove one side and add parts of C&C cage, the extended sizes wil be around 191x71 cm, that should be enough for 3 piggies. If bonding doesn't work, I will see what to do next, but hopefully when the cage is extended everyone will find there own spot. Will keep you posted, now we are on quarantine.

 

[Piggies&buns]

That’s a great size for three piggies as long as the bonding is successful.
Do keep us posted on how bonding goes!

 

[Merab]

Welcome to the forum.
I can’t add to the advice that you have already been given.
Hope things work out well with the bonding.
So sorry that you lost Fifa- be gentle with yourself as you grieve for her

 

[Pomfifa]

Hi everyone, so today is the proper bonding day for us. We started early in the morning on the neutral ground. And now it's been 6 hours on the rollercoaster. No blood, no humping, no chasing, but lots of teeth chattering from all the participants. The dominant newbie (the daughter) even went on her bestie, the mother. There was also a head punch towards Pommes (the older neutered boy). But in between everyone had a nap, ate. Girls are moving around the neutral ground, Pommes prefers to stay in his corner, although he also dares to move a bit, when girls are away. He doesn't mind when they eat close to him, but rightfully awaits the teeth chattering to happen. The good thing is, that now it happens less often than in the beginning. I can't call it a success, but I also don't see the obvious failure. So the question is should I move them later to the cleaned and extended cage? And what to do over night: is it safe leave them all together or should I better separate the cage? I am attaching some photos of how it went.

 

[Siikibam]

I would say give them till night to stay together in the bonding pen. What you can't do is now separate them into two cages. They have to work it out, and remember that it takes two weeks for the hierarchy to be sorted. It sounds like the daughter just wants to make her position clear. You can leave them in the bonding area overnight, though it's a little on the small side for three. See how they are before bed and maybe you can move them into their new digs.

 

[Pomfifa]

I would say give them till night to stay together in the bonding pen. What you can't do is now separate them into two cages. They have to work it out, and remember that it takes two weeks for the hierarchy to be sorted. It sounds like the daughter just wants to make her position clear. You can leave them in the bonding area overnight, though it's a little on the small side for three. See how they are before bed and maybe you can move them into their new digs.

But may I put the C&C grid inside the bonding pen overnight to make it safe? Just after I had posted the previous message I witnessed chasing and fur pulling. Of course the initiated by the daughter and the prey was Pommes. Now it's calm again, but I foresee it again.

 

[Merab]

When I bonded mine 2 pairs there was chasing and fur pulling too.
This lasted a couple of weeks before the 2 combatants sorted themselves out and became best friends.
It can be very nerve wracking for humans.

 

[Free Ranger]

The dominant sow has to accept him. My George was rejected by dominant Zara although he and submissive Louise would have loved to live together! But Zara fought him... not just fur pulling but full on attack and biting at his rump while he squealed and ran for his life! I never expected anything so dramatic because he is also a gentle boy who was submissive to a lovely, intelligent girl who we lost last year. They ended up as neighbours - then by chance we got another sow to try who accepted George as dominant which is still a surprise to him! Clever Flora knows that as long as she 'plays the game' she can do what she likes It did take about 2 weeks for her to settle but things got more relaxed every day.
Here are the neighbours... they like to hang out together on different sides of the bars of course! I hope your bonding works out, but if it doesn't they will still get a lot of piggy interaction through the bars x

 

[Pomfifa]

Everything is settled down now. Last evening I moved all piggies to the extended, cleaned cage, everyone was super excited and released. The hierarchy is clear and accepted, my boyfriend slept in the living room over the night to react in case of emergency but it all went well. I would like to thank everyone for your support, feedback and invaluable tips!