Bonding problems

[Penelopes mummy]

hi I have tried to have a quick read through bonding issues but I’ve had a few problems with spending too much time on my devices lately giving me headaches et cetera and I just can’t sit there reading and reading for ages so it would be really helpful if someone could help me out. I have a six-year-old ccalled Penelope and her cage mate died a couple of weeks ago so I have adopted a couple of girls that were part of a large group Heather and Hermione Heather is about three and Hermione is about a year and a half.

I tried introducing yesterday only for about five minutes at a time Because of Hermione And Penelope they were teeth chattering and Penelope was running away from Hermione and Hermione was nipping Penelopes back taking little chunks of hair out.

this seems like fighting behaviour and afterwards my Penelope was definitely not herself. They’ve had two separate cages side-by-side and I’ve swapped a few of their bits over. the introduction took place in that I also tried downstairs in the playpen, I’m going to try again today but I don’t know how many times to keep trying because it’s not fair on the pigs especially Penelope.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Unfortunately older sows can be much less willing to accept new company and as you are trying to bond a single piggy with an already bonded pair, then that is usually the trickiest bonding to get to work. Hermione sounds like she may be unwilling to allow a new piggy into her bond with Heather, particularly if she sees Penelope as a threat to her dominance.

As we cannot see the piggies together, reading the bonding guides on the forum so you can ascertain the level of the behaviour you are seeing is the best way to determine what is going on. Hair pulling is not usually a good sign in sow bondings though.

Any bonding must always be done in neutral territory, never the cages they live in, so if you do try again, please do so in a neutral space

Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?

 

[Penelopes mummy]

Unfortunately older sows can be much less willing to accept new company and as you are trying to bond a single piggy with an already bonded pair, then that is usually the trickiest bonding to get to work. Hermione sounds like she may be unwilling to allow a new piggy into her bond with Heather, particularly if she sees Penelope as a threat to her dominance.

As we cannot see the piggies together, reading the bonding guides on the forum so you can ascertain the level of the behaviour you are seeing is the best way to determine what is going on. Hair pulling is not usually a good sign in sow bondings though.

Any bonding must always be done in neutral territory, never the cages they live in, so if you do try again, please do so in a neutral space.

Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?

Thanks funny enough when Heather and Hermione are together it’s actually Heather that seems to be in charge.

As for a neutral space as I say I did try using a playpen downstairs but Penelope had already been in that with Margaret. (Previous piggy) the only neutral space I have as a bath! Not going to give them an actual bath! But I will try that later

 

[Bill & Ted]

Good luck, bonding is nerve wracking, hope it works out for the girls x

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks funny enough when Heather and Hermione are together it’s actually Heather that seems to be in charge.

As for a neutral space as I say I did try using a playpen downstairs but Penelope had already been in that with Margaret. (Previous piggy) the only neutral space I have as a bath! Not going to give them an actual bath! But I will try that later

You can use the run as it is not part of her regular patch. Anything that is not used daily or that is used by more than lot of piggies is fine.

Guinea pigs have two very different social modes: they live in smaller groups that are very territorial about their denning area. But the groups living in a kind of colony will then move all together twice daily to their feeding grounds. That is the herd setting.

What you want to create for the start of the bonding is this shared feeding 'herd' setting and what you want to avoid is bonding in the cage or a daily used exercise patch (if its it only used by one pair/group) in order to avoid hostile territorial behaviours which can doom a bonding attempt right from the start. No piggy likes feeling invaded or being on edge because we put them in the role of a possible cage invader.

Please be aware that older sows may not want to be together and prefer to have their own 'Queendoms'. Nipping is fine; a mouthful of hair is not - it is the sow equivalent of a full-on boar fighting bite and very much a final word on that piggy not being welcome in the group (even if it is just a group of one). The two can live next to each other but not together. Once a sow has made up her mind whether a piggy is in or out, she is not going to change it, unfortunately.
A Closer Look At Pairs (Boars - Sows - Mixed)

PS: My current article series for Guinea Pig Magazine explores the complex social life and identity of guinea pigs and how these different levels impact on what see in our pet piggies. My next instalment (coming our in March) will be all about inter-group interaction and territorial behaviours, which are all too oftern totally misinterpreted.
Guinea Pig Magazine website: Home

 

[Penelopes mummy]

You can use the run as it is not part of her regular patch. Anything that is not used daily or that is used by more than lot of piggies is fine.

Guinea pigs have two very different social modes: they live in smaller groups that are very territorial about their denning area. But the groups living in a kind of colony will then move all together twice daily to their feeding grounds. That is the herd setting.

What you want to create for the start of the bonding is this shared feeding 'herd' setting and what you want to avoid is bonding in the cage or a daily used exercise patch (if its it only used by one pair/group) in order to avoid hostile territorial behaviours which can doom a bonding attempt right from the start. No piggy likes feeling invaded or being on edge because we put them in the role of a possible cage invader.

Please be aware that older sows may not want to be together and prefer to have their own 'Queendoms'. Nipping is fine; a mouthful of hair is not - it is the sow equivalent of a full-on boar fighting bite and very much a final word on that piggy not being welcome in the group (even if it is just a group of one). The two can live next to each other but not together. Once a sow has made up her mind whether a piggy is in or out, she is not going to change it, unfortunately.
A Closer Look At Pairs (Boars - Sows - Mixed)

PS: My current article series for Guinea Pig Magazine explores the complex social life and identity of guinea pigs and how these different levels impact on what see in our pet piggies. My next instalment (coming our in March) will be all about inter-group interaction and territorial behaviours, which are all too oftern totally misinterpreted.
Guinea Pig Magazine website: Home

Thanks. Penelope is my current six-year-old its the new two-year-old Hermione that is doing the chasing and pulling mouthfuls of hair out!

I will let you know how I get on

 

[Penelopes mummy]

You can use the run as it is not part of her regular patch. Anything that is not used daily or that is used by more than lot of piggies is fine.

Guinea pigs have two very different social modes: they live in smaller groups that are very territorial about their denning area. But the groups living in a kind of colony will then move all together twice daily to their feeding grounds. That is the herd setting.

What you want to create for the start of the bonding is this shared feeding 'herd' setting and what you want to avoid is bonding in the cage or a daily used exercise patch (if its it only used by one pair/group) in order to avoid hostile territorial behaviours which can doom a bonding attempt right from the start. No piggy likes feeling invaded or being on edge because we put them in the role of a possible cage invader.

Please be aware that older sows may not want to be together and prefer to have their own 'Queendoms'. Nipping is fine; a mouthful of hair is not - it is the sow equivalent of a full-on boar fighting bite and very much a final word on that piggy not being welcome in the group (even if it is just a group of one). The two can live next to each other but not together. Once a sow has made up her mind whether a piggy is in or out, she is not going to change it, unfortunately.
A Closer Look At Pairs (Boars - Sows - Mixed)

PS: My current article series for Guinea Pig Magazine explores the complex social life and identity of guinea pigs and how these different levels impact on what see in our pet piggies. My next instalment (coming our in March) will be all about inter-group interaction and territorial behaviours, which are all too oftern totally misinterpreted.
Guinea Pig Magazine website: Home

They’re in the bath right now, so far I haven’t had to separate but I can’t see on the guides how long do I keep them in the bath and when is it time to move them into the cages. altogether? They have two cages to share between them, currently closed From each other. I don’t want to leave them long enough to be happy together and then put them in the cage and separate them do I? Also what do I do if they go back into the cage and they start fighting?

I have already swapped some bits round the cages so that each cage has their scent

 

[Piggies&buns]

They’re in the bath right now, so far I haven’t had to separate but I can’t see on the guides how long do I keep them in the bath and when is it time to move them into the cages. altogether? They have two cages to share between them, currently closed From each other. I don’t want to leave them long enough to be happy together and then put them in the cage and separate them do I? Also what do I do if they go back into the cage and they start fighting?

I have already swapped some bits round the cages so that each cage has their scent

They need to stay in neutral territory for several hours to get through the early stages of forming a relationship and hierarchy. The whole process of forming a relationship takes two weeks.
They should ideally have a nap together as wheh they wake up that can be a flash point for problems so don’t move them until they’ve had a nap and had something to eat etc. Any new territory will set off a new round of dominance so you don’t want to move them into the cage until they are through the early stages.

If all goes well in the neutral territory, they need to be moved into the cleaned out cage altogether and not separated again. If you separate and things are going well, then you interrupt everything.

If they fight and fall out once they go into the cage, then they should be separated and it may be that it is a complete failure and they should be kept separated from then on.

 

[Penelopes mummy]

They need to stay in neutral territory for several hours to get through the early stages of forming a relationship and hierarchy. The whole process of forming a relationship takes two weeks.
They should ideally have a nap together as wheh they wake up that can be a flash point for problems so don’t move them until they’ve had a nap and had something to eat etc. Any new territory will set off a new round of dominance so you don’t want to move them into the cage until they are through the early stages.

If all goes well in the neutral territory, they need to be moved into the cleaned out cage altogether and not separated again. If you separate and things are going well, then you interrupt everything.

If they fight and fall out once they go into the cage, then they should be separated and it may be that it is a complete failure and they should be kept separated from then on.

Thanks. Keep them in the bath wasn’t really the best idea but it was The only thing I could think of! I will have to keep them in there for as long as I can but I can’t sit in the bathroom all day long! Plus they can’t have a bottle of water Only a bowl which I know Penelope will not drink so I will try some water-based vegetables Only a bowl which I know Penelope will not drink frI’m so I will try some water-based vegetables

 

[Penelopes mummy]

You can use the run as it is not part of her regular patch. Anything that is not used daily or that is used by more than lot of piggies is fine.

Guinea pigs have two very different social modes: they live in smaller groups that are very territorial about their denning area. But the groups living in a kind of colony will then move all together twice daily to their feeding grounds. That is the herd setting.

What you want to create for the start of the bonding is this shared feeding 'herd' setting and what you want to avoid is bonding in the cage or a daily used exercise patch (if its it only used by one pair/group) in order to avoid hostile territorial behaviours which can doom a bonding attempt right from the start. No piggy likes feeling invaded or being on edge because we put them in the role of a possible cage invader.

Please be aware that older sows may not want to be together and prefer to have their own 'Queendoms'. Nipping is fine; a mouthful of hair is not - it is the sow equivalent of a full-on boar fighting bite and very much a final word on that piggy not being welcome in the group (even if it is just a group of one). The two can live next to each other but not together. Once a sow has made up her mind whether a piggy is in or out, she is not going to change it, unfortunately.
A Closer Look At Pairs (Boars - Sows - Mixed)

PS: My current article series for Guinea Pig Magazine explores the complex social life and identity of guinea pigs and how these different levels impact on what see in our pet piggies. My next instalment (coming our in March) will be all about inter-group interaction and territorial behaviours, which are all too oftern totally misinterpreted.
Guinea Pig Magazine website: Home

Thanks So I Bonded the piggies in the bath Wednesday Which I thought went okay however they are now obviously back in their cages, they are two midwest cages connected by a ramp, lots of hiding places to feeding bowls two water bottles two lots of hay and separate places but my poor Penelope seems to be suffering? My new adoptees Hermione and Heather just seem to be going after Penelope and pushing her out of her space and she just end up sitting in a corner like now while I am watching them. Very sad.

Do I need to give them a few more days to sort it out or do I separate them now?

 

[Penelopes mummy]

They need to stay in neutral territory for several hours to get through the early stages of forming a relationship and hierarchy. The whole process of forming a relationship takes two weeks.
They should ideally have a nap together as wheh they wake up that can be a flash point for problems so don’t move them until they’ve had a nap and had something to eat etc. Any new territory will set off a new round of dominance so you don’t want to move them into the cage until they are through the early stages.

If all goes well in the neutral territory, they need to be moved into the cleaned out cage altogether and not separated again. If you separate and things are going well, then you interrupt everything.

If they fight and fall out once they go into the cage, then they should be separated and it may be that it is a complete failure and they should be kept separated from then on.

Thanks So I Bonded the piggies in the bath Wednesday Which I thought went okay however they are now obviously back in their cages, they are two midwest cages connected by a ramp, lots of hiding places to feeding bowls two water bottles two lots of hay and separate places but my poor Penelope seems to be suffering? My new adoptees Hermione and Heather just seem to be going after Penelope and pushing her out of her space and she just end up sitting in a corner like now while I am watching them. Very sad.

Although she has now hopped into the hay corner and is eating and Hermione has disappeared into the other cage without disturbing her again.



And when I came up earlier although she was in a corner She was eating her own poop as normal.

Do I need to give them a few more days to sort it out or do I separate them now?

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks So I Bonded the piggies in the bath Wednesday Which I thought went okay however they are now obviously back in their cages, they are two midwest cages connected by a ramp, lots of hiding places to feeding bowls two water bottles two lots of hay and separate places but my poor Penelope seems to be suffering? My new adoptees Hermione and Heather just seem to be going after Penelope and pushing her out of her space and she just end up sitting in a corner like now while I am watching them. Very sad.

Do I need to give them a few more days to sort it out or do I separate them now?

Please sit it out. This is normal hierarchy establishing behaviour in the ca. 2 weeks post-intro dominance phase. The bonding process won't end until the group is fully settled at the end of it. Especially the first few days of the dominance phase are not particularly nice to watch but as every group relies on a hierarchy as the social fundament, it is an essential part of the bonding process.

More information on what to expect during the dominance phase in these links here: Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
(see chapter VII)
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts) (see chapter III)

 

[Penelopes mummy]

Thanks.

Although she has now hopped into the hay corner and is eating and Hermione has disappeared into the other cage without disturbing her again.



And when I came up earlier although she was in a corner She was eating her own poop as normal.

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks.

Although she has now hopped into the hay corner and is eating and Hermione has disappeared into the other cage without disturbing her again.



And when I came up earlier although she was in a corner She was eating her own poop as normal.

As stated: please sit it out. Unlike you, your piggies have the instinctive manual for the bonding process and understand what is going on. It is all very normal for this stage and the behaviours you are reporting are well within acceptable parameters.

 

[Penelopes mummy]

As stated: please sit it out. Unlike you, your piggies have the instinctive manual for the bonding process and understand what is going on. It is all very normal for this stage and the behaviours you are reporting are well within acceptable parameters.

Thanks Sorry meant to say more earlier posted too soon and it wouldn’t let me edit I will read those articles thank you for your help. Although this is the third time we have introduced new guinea pigs to each other we haven’t experienced this before. So all new to me.

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks Sorry meant to say more earlier posted too soon and it wouldn’t let me edit I will read those articles thank you for your help. Although this is the third time we have introduced new guinea pigs to each other we haven’t experienced this before. So all new to me.

Each bonding is unique because of the different mix of individual personalities and the dynamics.

Piggies that come out on top rather surprisingly and that are not quite confident in themselves in their new leadership position will react more strongly. The worst of the dominance usually comes from the piggy ranked directly above in the hierarchy to ensure that their ranking is not disputed; this travels slowly down the ladder.
Youngsters under 4 months are generally looking for a guardian that will take them on, so the situation can differ quite a lot.