bonding question

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Mon59

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Hi,

I’ve read a lot about bonding but have a simple question?

My lovely sow was euthanised recently and lived with another sow in a separated cage. Just a divider. They interacted frequently between the bars and kissed and called each other. They were separated because my ill pig would not bond and cried each time I put them in neutral territory . Was always VERY alarmed.

My remaining sow very lonely . About 3 years old. Spayed.

I have been offered two ‘play dates ‘ by a very well respected rescue..but both Boars. I think around 4 hours each. The expert will watch the bond.

Does this seem enough time to buy one and bring him home to live together? Assuming they get on briefly ?

Is a possible bond always obvious or does it need more time ? Don’t want to end up in a fight to the death in the small hours. !
 
4 hours is enough for you to know whether acceptance has occurred and for them to get through the first stages of bonding.
In this kind of speed dating scenario, if all has gone well at the rescue and you bring them home, then you ideally need to put them back in neutral territory to let them continue settling their bonding for several more hours.
After those more hours on neutral territory in your home, if all has gone well, then you can move them to their cage together. The full bonding and hierarchy process actually takes two weeks.

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated Bonding Dynamics and Behaviours

(I have moved your post to its own thread rather than being on someone else’s older thread)
 
Thank you.

How do I provide neutral territory at home . I only have one 5x2 c&C which I was going to deep-clean during the speed dating.

If I keep the divider up I will be back to the same problem . I can’t supervise another bonding because I don’t have that expertise.

There are piglloos and space for them to keep apart if they want. I’m expecting a bit of ‘capers’. But if they fight I will be in a right state …
 
Neutral territory is somewhere your original pig does not see as her space. Ideally you need another cage, or a space blocked off such as a kitchen or bathroom floor.

When doing a speed date, you do need to be able to continue the bonding at home. Speed dating gets them through acceptance stage but not quite enough through the later stages (although 4 hours together is definitely much better than some who only can get a couple of hours together at the rescue before being brought home).
You cannot use a divider at all - they have to be back together in a cage as soon as you bring them home to continue bonding.
Personally I would do another 3-4 hours when you get home before moving them to the permanent cage.

You could try to deep clean and rearrange her normal cage when you get back with them and then put them straight in there but be aware that she needs to not see it as him invading her territory as things won’t go well.
Neutral territory can also mean somewhere that smells like both of them - what it definitely should not be is somewhere that smells of just one of them - so you can wipe both pigs over with a cloth and then wipe that cloth over the cage and bedding to transfer both their scents to the cage. I have not personally done that though.
To add, there should not be any hides used in a neutral territory pen. You can only add them once they are either back in the permanent cage or if you are certain they are ok together.
Using hides in a bonding space can create territories within what should be neutral and thus cause potential issues.

When you say pigloos, do you mean the actual pigloos - ie the plastered single entrance houses? If so then you must not use them at all.
All hides need to have two exits.
 
Ok. Very Good point about hides.

I have plastic pigloos with lots of air holes that mine love for a nap, but I will put in boxes instead with 2 exits.

I still don’t understand how to bring them home to another space and then not put the divider back. Maria won’t see it as her old cage anyway because she was divided.

The Rescue are charging for all day monitoring service, and do it all the time with several ‘dates’ lined up . The Los Angeles rescue videos with their expert say you can tell in minutes …

Thanks again for hide issue.

Will report back.
 
I would definitely get rid of the plastic hides and replace them with wooden two exit hides or cardboard boxes. You should not use single exit hides/pigloos at any time while two piggies live together.

You simply bring them back and put them in a cage together.
They won’t have a divider when they’re meeting at the rescue (if they do then they haven’t been bonding anyway) so they don’t need one when you bring them home.
If things have gone well at rescue but you bring them home and add a divider then you have ended the bonding anyway. You would also have created territories within the cage again. You would then have to start the bonding all over again yourself and definitely then need a new neutral cage/space to do it.

She will see her half of the cage as her territory, which is why you do a thorough clean out or spread both scents in the whole cage.
(As I say, ideally when speed dating you bring them home and put them back on neutral territory (ie a second cage) for several more hours before moving them to the cleaned out permanent cage).

Yes you can tell within the first few minutes - that is the acceptance stage (which takes around 5-30 minutes, but getting through the other stages of setting up dominance and hierarchy takes the next several hours and then goes on for up to two weeks.

Occasionally a bond can still fail even if they have acceptance - it fails because they then can’t decide who is boss even if they initially liked each other.
Unfortunately this is the downside to speed dating (it has to happen within hours) and why residential dating (which is when your piggy goes to the rescue for a week or so to find a friend and all the stages of bonding are done at the rescue) is better but not many rescues offer it due to the larger amount of resources it takes.
 
Thank you.

If it goes well over 6 hours with the first pig ( there is a second choice) I’m going to put them together in a disinfected c&c with a new base.

I hadn’t thought of the pig loos so appreciate that. Just loads of hay.

If there is trouble at 2am then I can’t help that.

Final point is ; a new intact Boar with my spayed sow. Same age . Does that ring any alarm bells ?

Will report back .
 
Character compatibility is the key to a successful bond rather than age (although age does have a part in some situations).
With a boar/sow bonding, the sow has to accept the boar (not the other way round).
 
Ok. Not good. Advice please.

Took sow to the rescue and left her for 4 hours with the prospective Boar under supervision.

Very quick delightful outcome . No problems although sow was dominant. The Boar is very submissive. Just wants to lie down in the corner and eat.

Took them both home to neutral cage . Then moved to empty C&C . Only hay.

Sow starts on him within 20 mins. Teeth chattering. Whirling noises . Chasing him around . Possible rearing up and biting . Nipping his rear end has bitten hair. Rests for 5 mins then starts again. Spoiling for a fight. Boar very distressed.

I don’t interfere, but now on 5th hour of repeat behaviour. Tried food distraction but only works for 5 mins. Do I separate overnight within smelling distance and try in the morning ? I am exhausted and don’t want a serious injury during the night.

I don’t want to break any bond but this is very difficult. I don’t want him to be bullied.
 
How long did you have them in a neutral cage at home before moving them to their permanent cage?

Was everything ok while in the neutral cage?
To clarify, did the aggression only start once you moved to the c&c (presumably this is the c&c she always lived in)

If the bond looks to be troubled and a fight is likely, then yes do separate them.
You can try to rebond on neutral territory after a couple of days apart but there would be no guarantees that she will want him back if failure has set in
 
Appreciate the reply.

They were in the neutral cage for about 3 hours. She started on him there but I thought. Must go through it.

The permanent C&C was completely sanitised and rebuilt to much larger. New base. Everything . The whole room washed down. .

I have separated them now without a divider. Will seek further advice tomorrow. A safety issue.

Perhaps an experienced expert might find hope but I am discouraged. I did everything very carefully. Worried about the new boar who doesn't seem up for this at all…..
 
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