Bonding-seperating Boars To Pair With Sows

Hbecooper

Hbecooper

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Can anyone offer advice. We adopted 2 neutered boars in October, sadly C has had endless medical issues and is now half the size of his brother (B) and no longer the dominant boar, which has now started in fighting (drawn blood), the fact C has been poorly has also meant he does not particularly play anymore (he had a stroke and blind in one eye now) so his brother gets very bored and goes a bit nuts, which keeps C at bay, he cant handle him being very lively, he hides for long periods when he is. I feel it would be in both their interests to seperate them and pair them with a female each instead.. this i have no experience of or whether its the right thing to do? Since separating them C is much happier seems to get out around the cage hes in more.

So how do i go about this? A friend has 2 females babies (14w) she is looking to rehome due to moving abroad. I was considering adopting them, but have no experience of bonding, from all ive read it should be fairly standard to pair boar and sow but when its 2 seperately not sure how best to go about it, what do i do with the females to start with and how best to approach it... any advice would be really appreciated. Please feel free to tell me if this isnt a good idea or a better alternative. Thanks and sorry for long post!
 
Hbecooper said:
Can anyone offer advice. We adopted 2 neutered boars in October, sadly C has had endless medical issues and is now half the size of his brother (B) and no longer the dominant boar, which has now started in fighting (drawn blood), the fact C has been poorly has also meant he does not particularly play anymore (he had a stroke and blind in one eye now) so his brother gets very bored and goes a bit nuts, which keeps C at bay, he cant handle him being very lively, he hides for long periods when he is. I feel it would be in both their interests to seperate them and pair them with a female each instead.. this i have no experience of or whether its the right thing to do? Since separating them C is much happier seems to get out around the cage hes in more.

So how do i go about this? A friend has 2 females babies (14w) she is looking to rehome due to moving abroad. I was considering adopting them, but have no experience of bonding, from all ive read it should be fairly standard to pair boar and sow but when its 2 seperately not sure how best to go about it, what do i do with the females to start with and how best to approach it... any advice would be really appreciated. Please feel free to tell me if this isnt a good idea or a better alternative. Thanks and sorry for long post!
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Hi!

Please wait with any bonding until your boys are 100% safe at 6 weeks post. The baby in my avatar is the unplanned daughter of an over 5 weeks post-op boar (not one of mine), just to prove that particular point. There is a crucial difference between 'nearly safe' and 'totally safe' - and as it is playing statistics, it means that it can happen to anybody. I know of more cases.
Neutered / De-sexed Boars And Neutering Operations: Myths And Facts

Secondly, please double-check the gender of your little girls before you start any bonding. Mis-sexing is surprisingly common!
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/sexing-separating-baby-boars-and-rehoming-babies.109391/

You will need two cages or C&C pens anyway, one for each pair. They can be adjoining, as each pair has got their own territory. All my pens are adjoining; I have currently got 6 neutered boars living with 1-4 sows each in their own pen.

Please take the time to read our very detailed bonding guide. It covers the whole period from the preparation to the end of the dominance phase. Bonding: Illustrated Dominance Behaviours And Dynamics

Bonding neutered boars to baby sows is a pretty surefire bonding. You can shorten the preparation phase as babies are desperate for the guidance of an older piggy and will basically attach themselves to one. They are vocally quite dramatic, though; especially any submission squeaking!
One of the bonding scenarios is a group bonding with a young piggy; the dynamics are going to be very similar to this. Just make sure that the babies have a refuge in case your healthy boar gets too randy, which can happen. Make sure that you have the windows open.

I would recommend that with a frail boar you bond him first with the more submissive of the baby sows. You rather want a gentle girl with him. It is also easier to bond in the more submissive girl into the other pair in case your frail boy passes away at some stage if the new arrival doesn't upset the existing hierarchy in the other pair.

Then you tackle the healthy boar and the more dominant sister with a new blanket in the wiped bonding area.

This is my set-up:
IMG_2111_edited-1.webp
 
Thank you very much great guidance. They were neutered at adoption (where sadly some of the medical issues have arisen from) but advice regarding a more submissive sow is great as hadnt thought of it that way if he passes away. Vet seems to think he will be fine just now long term adjustments he needs to make so having a quieter match will be in his interest.

With pairing like this do you still recommend like most say about all new stuff or will this be different due to babies? I currently have a c&c set up but have taken one out into our spare long cage, if/when i bring babies home do i still need to pop them out for open floor time seperatly etc,. Ill read your guidance. We dont have the biggest of space to do bonding so trying to find the easier way to do it. Thanks again
 
Hbecooper said:
Thank you very much great guidance. They were neutered at adoption (where sadly some of the medical issues have arisen from) but advice regarding a more submissive sow is great as hadnt thought of it that way if he passes away. Vet seems to think he will be fine just now long term adjustments he needs to make so having a quieter match will be in his interest.

With pairing like this do you still recommend like most say about all new stuff or will this be different due to babies? I currently have a c&c set up but have taken one out into our spare long cage, if/when i bring babies home do i still need to pop them out for open floor time seperatly etc,. Ill read your guidance. We dont have the biggest of space to do bonding so trying to find the easier way to do it. Thanks again
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I would recommend to not wait too long with the bonding, just enough to give the girls time to get the hang of your daily routine and as soon as you have a free day for the bonding, so you can keep an eye on them. Don't give them free run time while they are getting their bearings in their new home. They can do that with their boarmate.
If you need ideas for temporary housing solutions, here is a thread with ideas: Temporary Housing Solutions?

You can bond in a bathtub, a shower tray, in an indoors run etc. anywhere your piggies cannot escape where they shouldn't and get stuck. I would recommend to put the bonded pair into a cleaned cage, but it doesn't matter whether it is smelling of the boar as you are bonding adults with youngsters. I would however strongly recommend to not have any hideys with just one exit in the cage until all the excitement has died down, which can take a few days. With a randy boar, there can be lots of chases.

You can find a list of post-neutering complications in the neutering guide.
I currently have an (already) neutered boar called Nosgan (Welsh for 'Nightsong') who has developed a hernia a year ago, which is causing further problems (impaction and smegma build-up in the penis shaft); thankfully the hernia seems to be stable as an operation could create more problems than it would solve.
My Hywel ('Eminent') nearly died from gut adhesions 7 years ago but went on to have a very happy boar life with up to 13 sows for the next 5 1/2 years.

Are you supporting your boy with syringe feed? Complete Syringe Feeding Guide
 
Thank you that is most helpful i did wonder if the bonded babies would need seperating too but that answered that question and seems babies in any case would be a better solution for us.
We no longer need to syringe feed as he is happily eating again now ans gaining wait very well and more so since seperating him, i do think that due to the medical issues it has caused an issue in the bond they had as had time away a fair bit on and off so really not helped, his brother is just way too dominant now poor thing. The frailer one has a very bad head tilt and blindness in one side and did have infections in the stitching area after his op. They had been rescued and rehomed and neutered within 3wks so the vet thinks the other things that cropped up were likely stress related, so want to make this as pleasent experience as i can, they both deserve to be paired with suitable mates to enjoy time with. When we move house i will have much more space to get more c&c cages for them too.

As weve had them 6months ive really got to know them well so will check sexes of these babies and temperaments before agreeing and go from there. Thankfully our vet is fantastic so has been helpful with any issues.

Thanks again
 
I have just had a message from them, they are actually 16wks old, not as baby as i initially thought but still younger :/
 
Hbecooper said:
I have just had a message from them, they are actually 16wks old, not as baby as i initially thought but still younger :/
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They are just about teenagers at ca. 4 months, but it should not be too much of a problem as you are very much working with piggy instincts and not against them - you may have to brace for some monster seasons as their bodies will react to the boar pheromones more strongly than of they were babies. Bonding older sows past ideal pup bearing age is a lot more tricky.
Sows close enough in their oestrus cycle can come into season spontaneously when in contact with boar pheromones. The first few seasons in new cross gender bond tend to be strong ones; the shared drama and excess of emotion serves to bond them more closely.
When Sows Experience A Strong Season (videos)
 
Oh i hadnt even considered that actually feel like such a newby! Is there anything i need to watch out for or deal with if this is the case with them?
 
Hbecooper said:
Oh i hadnt even considered that actually feel like such a newby! Is there anything i need to watch out for or deal with if this is the case with them?
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No, you have to sit out the drama. Meleri in the videos is about a comparable age. Babies at that age are very agile; they can get away if they really want to. Just make sure that there are no hideys with one exit.

Each combination of piggies has new challenges and behaviours. You never stop learning. ;)
 
Thank you, you are very right. I'm not sure these will be the right fit, ive seen them today and both very boisterous with each other, i have said i will be happy to take them to then rehome via a rescue center though. I think personally we would be better with babies more so for our frailer guinea pig. Its always difficult to know what is right though. With babies i was a little confused as to whether a male or female pairing would be better, I'm wondering if males maybe better? I werent sure as to whether neutered and unneutered pairings would make a difference? Sorry to ask i just want to be clear i understand the behaviours etc. All your advice though is fantastic and will be sure to come back to you.

I have these half grids to baby proof too so assume these would be fine. I do however have a loft too? 15237930143171737392199008636353.webp
 
Hbecooper said:
Thank you, you are very right. I'm not sure these will be the right fit, ive seen them today and both very boisterous with each other, i have said i will be happy to take them to then rehome via a rescue center though. I think personally we would be better with babies more so for our frailer guinea pig. Its always difficult to know what is right though. With babies i was a little confused as to whether a male or female pairing would be better, I'm wondering if males maybe better? I werent sure as to whether neutered and unneutered pairings would make a difference? Sorry to ask i just want to be clear i understand the behaviours etc. All your advice though is fantastic and will be sure to come back to you.

I have these half grids to baby proof too so assume these would be fine. I do however have a loft too? View attachment 84682
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At 4 months of age, the grids won't be a problem any longer. Your girl will be too large to get stuck by then. You can add a hay loft if you wish to.

Please be aware that that if you get babies (which are even livelier!), you also also get lively teenagers... Just two months later into the bargain. ;)
You will find that the girls will bicker a lot less with an adult boar (it is a dominance thing). Your boys are not so frail that they cannot handle a bit of joie the vivre and be perked up by it.

Boars go through a much more pronounced teenage phase between 4-14 months of time. You do not want to deal with that when they push the boundaries with a body that has testosterone coursing through it at an all time high! Baby boys with a frail adult is a definite no no.

If you are really worried, then you'll have to take your boys rescue dating with adult sows.
 
Fab that answered my questions then, maybe i will see how these girls are and go from there then, i have the capacity to keep them really but have just been focusing on the 2 i have needs. Thank you so much for all your guidance! Ive only ever had older male rescues so bonding and such like totally new!
 
Thanks for your advise. I decided to go back and spend the afternoon with them to get a proper feel for their temperaments and was much happier. One is quite independant and lively, happy to come to you and be held etx. The other is lot more timid and quite hard to pick up (so much faster than I'm used to.lol) butbis still very chilled once settled. I decided to take them and have been really social even in new surroundings which was a surprise. I have put them into their own cage for now to settle them. How long would you suggest i keep them in their cage for before bonding? Would.popping them outside on the grass together both male and female pairs in runs next to each other be a good place or as you suggested before kitchen floor better? They are already sniffing each other out being in a cage next to the each other so I'm confident they will be just fine.
 
Sorry for your loss. :( Sending hugs! I hope the bonding goes well with your other boar.
 
Thank you very much, it was sad to see him go but hes been poorly since october so did very well to be here as long as he was. I'm glad i got these 2 girls now to bond with Bruce..they are enjoying so time on the grass together today x
 
Hi Wiebke,

Thanks for your advice. I wanted to check all seems well being new to this. With Chops now sadly no longer with us, i thought an ideal time ro introduce the girls. They have been separated in a cage but have met so to speak. Popped them out on the grass this morning although still seperated and seemed to be the girls gave Bruce a sniff and he seemed disinterested but okay with them, just carried on eating.

I have this afternoon had them out for the past hour on the grass together and bruce is just sat eating again and girls seem to be doing most of the moving about and noises. Hes not bothered to mount them or anything really maybe a quick nose touch, but the girls seem more into trying to gain his favour which he against isnt bothered with. Thankfully hes eating away not frozen to the spot which is also good. They are all nicely eating away next to each other on the grass now, is this a good sign? Seems too have gone far too easy and so made me uneasy lol
How many other times do you recommend i do this before i put them in a cage together?

Sorry to go over advice again, Chops passing away has thrown me a little as i had it planned out what i was going to do as a pair!
Wiebke said:
At 4 months of age, the grids won't be a problem any longer. Your girl will be too large to get stuck by then. You can add a hay loft if you wish to.

Please be aware that that if you get babies (which are even livelier!), you also also get lively teenagers... Just two months later into the bargain. ;)
You will find that the girls will bicker a lot less with an adult boar (it is a dominance thing). Your boys are not so frail that they cannot handle a bit of joie the vivre and be perked up by it.

Boars go through a much more pronounced teenage phase between 4-14 months of time. You do not want to deal with that when they push the boundaries with a body that has testosterone coursing through it at an all time high! Baby boys with a frail adult is a definite no no.

If you are really worried, then you'll have to take your boys rescue dating with adult sows.
Click to expand...
 
Hbecooper said:
Hi Wiebke,

Thanks for your advice. I wanted to check all seems well being new to this. With Chops now sadly no longer with us, i thought an ideal time ro introduce the girls. They have been separated in a cage but have met so to speak. Popped them out on the grass this morning although still seperated and seemed to be the girls gave Bruce a sniff and he seemed disinterested but okay with them, just carried on eating.

I have this afternoon had them out for the past hour on the grass together and bruce is just sat eating again and girls seem to be doing most of the moving about and noises. Hes not bothered to mount them or anything really maybe a quick nose touch, but the girls seem more into trying to gain his favour which he against isnt bothered with. Thankfully hes eating away not frozen to the spot which is also good. They are all nicely eating away next to each other on the grass now, is this a good sign? Seems too have gone far too easy and so made me uneasy lol
How many other times do you recommend i do this before i put them in a cage together?

Sorry to go over advice again, Chops passing away has thrown me a little as i had it planned out what i was going to do as a pair!
Click to expand...

I would leave them on neutral ground until they all interact with each other and you start seeing dominance behaviour, which means that initial acceptance has happened; ideally you wait with moving them into their forever cage until the top spot in the hierarchy has been established.

Just give him time; as long as there are no negative moves, it is all still there to win! Bonding in the bonding pen can take more than one day.
 
Great thank you. The girls like to illustrate their dominance with each other Android around him but nothing so far from him, but all seems very positive so fingers crossed!
 
Hi wiebke

Just wanted to say thank you for all your advice! It was too hot out for them on the grass today so had them indoors for bonding time, popped them in at 6pm and was a littlw worried as bruce just huddled in thw corner like he didnt know what to do with himself but both girls showing lots of interest and plenty of rumbleatrutting! about 7ish though he started to come out of his shell and start paying them attention, funnily no rumblestrutting from him but mildly vocal, lots of noise touching etc although girls didn't want him to bother them but fine the other way round. Toffee tried to sit on his head sooo many times and he just flipped her off but nothing major he was very patient but putting her in her place lol pen smells awful now though lol lots of scent marking from the girls and them asserting dominance between them and Bruce just sat back and watched.. roll on 11pm and thwy habe finally gone to sleep! Toffee at total opposite side but bruce and fudge next to each other so id say a success. As ita soo late ill pop them back in thwir own cages and get them out again tomorrow and see how that goes and maybe after another nap together put them in together.. I'm guessing that seems the right time. All your links though were invaluable, had a massive read up and feel much better about it, so thanks again x
Wiebke said:
I would leave them on neutral ground until they all interact with each other and you start seeing dominance behaviour, which means that initial acceptance has happened; ideally you wait with moving them into their forever cage until the top spot in the hierarchy has been established.

Just give him time; as long as there are no negative moves, it is all still there to win! Bonding in the bonding pen can take more than one day.
Click to expand...
 
Hbecooper said:
Hi wiebke

Just wanted to say thank you for all your advice! It was too hot out for them on the grass today so had them indoors for bonding time, popped them in at 6pm and was a littlw worried as bruce just huddled in thw corner like he didnt know what to do with himself but both girls showing lots of interest and plenty of rumbleatrutting! about 7ish though he started to come out of his shell and start paying them attention, funnily no rumblestrutting from him but mildly vocal, lots of noise touching etc although girls didn't want him to bother them but fine the other way round. Toffee tried to sit on his head sooo many times and he just flipped her off but nothing major he was very patient but putting her in her place lol pen smells awful now though lol lots of scent marking from the girls and them asserting dominance between them and Bruce just sat back and watched.. roll on 11pm and thwy habe finally gone to sleep! Toffee at total opposite side but bruce and fudge next to each other so id say a success. As ita soo late ill pop them back in thwir own cages and get them out again tomorrow and see how that goes and maybe after another nap together put them in together.. I'm guessing that seems the right time. All your links though were invaluable, had a massive read up and feel much better about it, so thanks again x
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Please leave them together in the bonding pen overnight with some hay and water. ;)
Glad that things have gone so well!
 
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