Bullying, Separate or not?

Dom R

Dom R

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Hi all,

I've made a thread similar to this before, but things have changed a little,

This is between Ash and Oscar, again. The primary issue is now that Oscar is grown up more, around 1 Year Old, and is between 1.2 and 1.3 kilos, and Ash is still bigger than him, at just over 1.3 Kilos. Ash seems to nip him a lot on the back end, and its not just a nip, it draws some blood and he has scabs dotted around; I really doubt that this is a misjudged nip, since it has been happening for quite some time. Ash also seems to get quite annoyed at Oscar pretty regularly, and chases him away and grinds his teeth at him, even when Oscar does nothing to him. When Ash is around Oscar, Oscar seems to be really wary, and seems to sort of, shut down? He's not losing any weight, so its not a major issue, but he just doesn't seem too happy around Ash. Their cage is 2-layered, and has 2 of everything, so they can get away from each other when they need/want. But whenever Oscar wants to be alone, Ash seems to follow him most of the time. From what I've noticed, Oscar seems to eat very little hay, as whenever he does, Ash comes and makes him move.

I'm currently trialling Oscar living with Coco and Peanut, and it seems to be going well. Peanut loves all piggies, as long as they aren't dominant over him, he's not aggressive or anything. Coco is a little different, but he's been grooming Oscar's eyes, and showing the usual dominance rumblestrutting and what not.

I'm just wondering whether or not this is the correct move, that the scabs from nipping etc. warrent moving Oscar into the other boys' cage (I can extend it so they get even more room).

My next issue is with Ash. I don't really want him to live alone, and it will make it quite difficult to allow him to see the others through the bars, and it will most likely drive him crazy. He'll start biting the bars, squeaking etc. And with them living in my room, it will be extremely annoying and unpleasant; as well as stressing him out. I cannot get another guinea pig, due to not having enough room for one. Even with him on the layers above, he's squeaking and running around, and is probably getting quite stressed. Will this calm down with time or not? Since in my opinion its quite unfair for Oscar to stay with Ash, especially for all the nipping etc.

What's your guys' opinion on this?
 
It sounds like Oscar and ash aren’t great together, so from that perspective separating them probably is the best move. Moving Oscar in with the other two boys, probably won’t be a great move long term but you might get lucky. A trio of boys is most often a recipe for disaster. You will have to watch out. You don’t say your cage size, but to stand any chance, a trio of boys need a huge amount of space.
Ash isn’t going to like being separated from them. I am not sure what to suggest about it though - hopefully somebody else will! Being separated but living alongside works for some boars, they get some interaction through the bars but for some it is very frustrating to be able to see but not completely interact with others. The problem of course, is even if you were able to completely move him away so he can’t see/hear the others, he is then going to get incredibly lonely and will need a new friend.
 
Piggies&buns said:
It sounds like Oscar and ash aren’t great together, so from that perspective separating them probably is the best move. Moving Oscar in with the other two boys, probably won’t be a great move long term but you might get lucky. A trio of boys is most often a recipe for disaster. You will have to watch out. You don’t say your cage size, but to stand any chance, a trio of boys need a huge amount of space.
Ash isn’t going to like being separated from them. I am not sure what to suggest about it though - hopefully somebody else will! Being separated but living alongside works for some boars, they get some interaction through the bars but for some it is very frustrating to be able to see but not completely interact with others. The problem of course, is even if you were able to completely move him away so he can’t see/hear the others, he is then going to get incredibly lonely and will need a new friend.
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I'm glad you agree. The cage setup currently is 4-layered, two for each pair. Ash is being quite vocal and chatting to them, but feeling his ears, they're quite warm so he's sort of stressed too I suppose. Because I use the C&C cage grids, I can always change the layout of the cage really easily, so they can get face-to-face contact. The main issue of doing that would be, is that Coco and Ash hate each other, as in Coco just attacks him instantly.

Regarding the trio, even though its only been an hour, Oscar and Coco seem comfortable with each other. Oscar is the least dominant, with Peanut being the most. They're all really calm and tame, minus Coco, but I think Coco likes Oscar. Oscar is comfortable to eat with Coco around, and he's even chewing on the bendable log tunnel that you can get from Pets at home. I'm hoping I might get lucky, especially with Peanut being as he is, since he'll get on with any guinea pig, as long as he's the dominant one.

Other than that, thank you for the reply :)
 
Do plan ahead just in case the trio doesn’t work out. As I said though, a trio usually need a much larger cage (5x2 being the recommended size for two boys so for three you ideally want bigger than that). Having a working trio of boys is such a rare thing, it is precious when it happens!

If coco and ash don’t like each other, then putting them alongside each other could ruin any chance the trio have of working - coco would well turn on peanut and Oscar in frustration of seeing ash.
 
Piggies&buns said:
Do plan ahead just in case the trio doesn’t work out. As I said though, a trio usually need a much larger cage (5x2 being the recommended size for two boys so for three you ideally want bigger than that). Having a working trio of boys is such a rare thing, it is precious when it happens!

If coco and ash don’t like each other, then putting them alongside each other could ruin any chance the trio have of working - coco would well turn on peanut and Oscar in frustration of seeing ash.
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It's just a test for now anyways, but Oscar seems much happier, he's chatting and moving around move than he usually does. I know the chances of it working are really slim, but there's no harm in trying at least. If it works out I plan to extend their cage as much as I can. I wish I could just leave them as two pairs, being much easier. It's a shame that Ash is just a bully and its quite unfair for Oscar to stay with him.
 
That is often the test - if the bullied pig perks up after being removed, then it is a clear sign of a dysfunctional bond. The bully will always be upset by the separation.
I do wish you all the best with a trio - it is so lovely to hear of successful trios!
 
I would say extend the trips’ cage now rather than waiting to see if they’ll get along. You mentioned c&c but didn’t mention the actual size. Also how old are they?

Fingers crossed that they last. Just be ready with a plan b as suggested.
 
Siikibam said:
I would say extend the trips’ cage now rather than waiting to see if they’ll get along. You mentioned c&c but didn’t mention the actual size. Also how old are they?

Fingers crossed that they last. Just be ready with a plan b as suggested.
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As mentioned, I'm short on space so I did what I could.

They're in a 3x2 with 4 layers, 2 for each pair. It's bit on the short side, but they seem to like it, and they get plenty of time to run around. I've looked into moving them to a different part in my room, where they'd be able to get a 4x2 with 2 layers, but I'm worried about the stability of where I'd move them to, but it's something that I can go ahead and do if need be.

Peanut is 3 years old
Ash is 2.5 years old (This is the reason why I waited a bit, seeing if Ash would calm down after his teenage years, but he didn't/hasn't.
Coco and Oscar are both just over 1 years old.
 
Coco and Oscar are still in their teenage years (4-14 months).
Space is a bit of an issue I’m afraid. Boars in general need at least 140cm. Ideally 2x5 for two boars. So for three I’d say 2x7 minimum to be on the safe side. Is there no way you can extend lengthways? Or even extend so it’s 3x3?...unfortunately additional floors don’t count as piggies are ground roaming animals. Is Oscar being submissive to Coco & Peanut?

Will you be able to find a friend for Ash? Though I’d look at space first and see if you can expand the cage.
 
We do understand the lack of space but I have to say, I do agree with Siikibam. They would stand a better chance of working if they had a bigger space from the beginning. A lack of space is a large part of what will cause failure. Establishing a hierarchy takes a few weeks so at any point lack of space can show so waiting until things potentially start to deteriorate before adding more space could already be too late to save it, potentially dragging down coco and peanut’s relationship with it. It’s not just the failure of a trio which can result, it can break down the existing bond between the original pair as well, equally all four ending up as single pigs.
A 3x2 is too small for a pair of boars, so for a trio it is definitely going to be pushing it well over the limit. A recommended size for Two boars is a 5x2. Upper levels don’t actually count, it is only the one layer that counts towards their space as guinea pigs are ground roaming but the ability to get away from each other to another level is probably what has got you through with a pair in a cage of that size.
With coco and Oscar being only just over 1yr old, there is a risk as they are still in their teenage times, although hopefully settling as they are getting towards the end, but this is Still a risk.
I honestly do hope it works out, but I would just urge you to take action now where at all possible to give it the best chance.
 
Siikibam said:
Coco and Oscar are still in their teenage years (4-14 months).
Space is a bit of an issue I’m afraid. Boars in general need at least 140cm. Ideally 2x5 for two boars. So for three I’d say 2x7 minimum to be on the safe side. Is there no way you can extend lengthways? Or even extend so it’s 3x3?...unfortunately additional floors don’t count as piggies are ground roaming animals. Is Oscar being submissive to Coco & Peanut?

Will you be able to find a friend for Ash? Though I’d look at space first and see if you can expand the cage.
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Piggies&buns said:
We do understand the lack of space but I have to say, I do agree with Siikibam. They would stand a better chance of working if they had a bigger space from the beginning. A lack of space is a large part of what will cause failure. Establishing a hierarchy takes a few weeks so at any point lack of space can show so waiting until things potentially start to deteriorate before adding more space could already be too late to save it, potentially dragging down coco and peanut’s relationship with it. It’s not just the failure of a trio which can result, it can break down the existing bond between the original pair as well, equally all four ending up as single pigs.
A 3x2 is too small for a pair of boars, so for a trio it is definitely going to be pushing it well over the limit. A recommended size for Two boars is a 5x2. Upper levels don’t actually count, it is only the one layer that counts towards their space as guinea pigs are ground roaming but the ability to get away from each other to another level is probably what has got you through with a pair in a cage of that size.
With coco and Oscar being only just over 1yr old, there is a risk as they are still in their teenage times, although hopefully settling as they are getting towards the end, but this is Still a risk.
I honestly do hope it works out, but I would just urge you to take action now where at all possible to give it the best chance.
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I'm really pushing for space, they're on an extended bit on my desk, and their cage comes right up to my door frame. Extending it sideways would make it difficult as it'll get my in way when using my computer. The only way I could do it, is by swapping their places with my Gecko enclosures, but would make the walkway between there and my cupboard really slim, but it is possible (This is where I was on about moving them to anyways). There is in no way I could make it more than layered 2x4's.

Sorry to disagree with you, but I fail to reason with why layered enclosures don't count. My piggies sprint up the ramps etc. especially while they have zoomies/popcorning, and they definitely do use it for exercise etc. I can understand why a longer cage is better, but I cannot understand how a second layer just doesn't count.

Oscar is being submissive, he doesn't have a dominant bone in his body, he just wants to be do his own thing and not be annoyed by another piggy, which is probably why he dislikes being with Ash, since he doesn't leave him alone.

Again, thank you for your guys' replies :)
 
Sorry for the double post, I'm going to do some measuring, and work out the absolute MAXIMUM cage size I could do without it closing me in.

Edit: 2x4 is the absolute Maximum unfortunately :/
 
Do you have just the one room you could house them in? Would an L shape cage work?
 
Siikibam said:
Do you have just the one room you could house them in? Would an L shape cage work?
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Unfortunately yeah, my parent's don't want them downstairs for a variety of reasons (Mess, my dog is more than likely going to cause them a lot of stress, she barks a lot etc), and mostly the room they take up. An L shape wouldn't work unfortunately.

Pretty much the only way to encorporate a 2x5+ cage is to rearrange my entire room, and dismantle and change how my desk is laid out, which is attached to the wall etc.
 
I have a trio of boars which have always been together, so I've never had to go through the bonding phase. The smallest cage they ever had was 5x3 c&c with 1x3 loft. They're now in a 6x3 with a 1x3 loft. Even with that I still get the occasional spat, and have had to divide the cage for an hour or two to let things calm down.
I would say give it a shot, but you run the risk of destabilising the successful pairing, which could potentially leave you with 4 separate boars who won't tolerate any of the others, which is a risk you may not wish to take. The thing is that that may not happen immediately, it could kick off further down the line.
Unfortunately you're kind of in a catch 22 position, with the only viable option being taking the risk of the trio in a two or three layered cage.
I don't feel that I'm being much help, but I do feel for you, and, unfortunately the decision can only be yours.
I hope whatever you decide, it works for you x.
 
Reenie said:
I have a trio of boars which have always been together, so I've never had to go through the bonding phase. The smallest cage they ever had was 5x3 c&c with 1x3 loft. They're now in a 6x3 with a 1x3 loft. Even with that I still get the occasional spat, and have had to divide the cage for an hour or two to let things calm down.
I would say give it a shot, but you run the risk of destabilising the successful pairing, which could potentially leave you with 4 separate boars who won't tolerate any of the others, which is a risk you may not wish to take. The thing is that that may not happen immediately, it could kick off further down the line.
Unfortunately you're kind of in a catch 22 position, with the only viable option being taking the risk of the trio in a two or three layered cage.
I don't feel that I'm being much help, but I do feel for you, and, unfortunately the decision can only be yours.
I hope whatever you decide, it works for you x.
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I'm currently looking into ways I could possibly move my enclosure, and make it a 3 layered 2x4 (2 layers for the trio and one for Ash). It's quite the pain, but I've currently put Oscar back in with Ash until I can hopefully extend their enclosure, which would make the success of the trio working out increase.

It's just quite annoying and I sometimes wish that Ash was different, so I didn't have to do any of this. As much as I don't know this for sure, but if they do fall out as a trio, I'm sure that Coco and Peanut will be okay together, their personalities are just a great match in my opinion. I'm sure Oscar will put up with anyone he gets put with, as he isn't aggressive or dominant in any way.

Oscar has been with Ash since I got him (over 1 year ago), and I was hoping that it'd calm down over time. Especially due to Ash being in his teenage years, or close to the end of them, when I got Oscar. I think it's pretty obvious that that isnt going to happen.

As I said, I'm already pushing their enclosure size to the maximum, and 2x4 is the absolute maximum. Just going to look into ways to stabilise them, more than likely attach their enclosure to the wall somehow and other ways. As much as I'd like to move them downstairs or something to make their enclosure even bigger, it simply isn't a beneficial move.


I thank you for the support, hopefully I can sort this out soon.
 
By nature guinea pigs are ground roaming. Yes, some may be able to Use ramps but not all and it isn’t natural to them to be climbing. They prefer to exercise by running in flat laps and having to run up a ramp to get more space breaks that up. This is why upper levels are a bonus, they aren’t a continuous space and therefore don’t serve to increase the amount of floor area. Your pigs have only got the space you can give to them so this is why they are ok doing the zoomies up the ramp but it doesn’t detract from the fact that naturally, they prefer to run on one level.

My boys live in a 8ft x 6ft shed. They have a two storey hutch within the shed. The way and the speed at which they run around the shed floor vs how they run up the ramp is clearly very different. They are much more at ease doing their running on the shed floor rather than up the ramp.

If you could make layered 2x4s as you mention above then that would help.
 
Piggies&buns said:
By nature guinea pigs are ground roaming. Yes, some may be able to Use ramps but not all and it isn’t natural to them to be climbing. They prefer to exercise by running in flat laps and having to run up a ramp to get more space breaks that up. This is why upper levels are a bonus, they aren’t a continuous space and therefore don’t serve to increase the amount of floor area. Your pigs have only got the space you can give to them so this is why they are ok doing the zoomies up the ramp but it doesn’t detract from the fact that naturally, they prefer to run on one level.

My boys live in a 8ft x 6ft shed. They have a two storey hutch within the shed. The way and the speed at which they run around the shed floor vs how they run up the ramp is clearly very different. They are much more at ease doing their running on the shed floor rather than up the ramp.

If you could make layered 2x4s as you mention above then that would help.
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Okay that makes more sense. Mine do plenty of running around and climbing, they've even learned to climb up the stairs once they've had enough of floor time downstairs (With supervision and keeping my dog away from them). I'd happily get them a heated shed or something, but since I'm still living with my parents, I'm really limited on what I can do, which is why I'm doing my best to get them in the enclosure they're in now. It's just unfortunate that Ash and Peanut had to fall out, I never planned on having four, but you've got to do whats best for them so.

Just as a last means sort of thing. Is there anything else I can do that could possibly get Ash to stop being such a bully?

Either way, I'm going to try my best into moving them into a layered 2x4
 
Dom R said:
Just as a last means sort of thing. Is there anything else I can do that could possibly get Ash to stop being such a bully?
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You can’t change his nature. It might have been a space issue originally - the recommended 2x5 for two boys enables them to have their own territory so by them living in a 2x3 (albeit with a second level) he may have felt the need to defend his territory even more and with little elsewhere for the other piggy to go it may have come to a head. Ultimately though, he may just be a very dominant piggy who hasn’t found a cagemate of compatible character.
 
Piggies&buns said:
You can’t change his nature. It might have been a space issue originally - the recommended 2x5 for two boys enables them to have their own territory so by them living in a 2x3 (albeit with a second level) he may have felt the need to defend his territory even more and with little elsewhere for the other piggy to go it may have come to a head. Ultimately though, he may just be a very dominant piggy who hasn’t found a cagemate of compatible character.
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That's quite fair, and I know I can't change his nature, other than this little issue, he's an amazing piggy and loves his cuddles.

Once I manage to extend their enclosure I'll update, and see how they all get on. Thanks everyone for the help :)
 
Another thing you have to think about is whether you want a trio and single, or two pairs. It will be disruptive if you keep swapping Oscar to put him in with Ash then put him in with Coco & Peanut.

Did you put Oscar straight back in the cage with Ash? If you’re putting them together again, you really should re-introduce on neutral territory. Be aware he may ‘defend’ his territory. I’m assuming that you separated them today?

another thought I had. Is there a way you could attach a run to the cage so they can have permanent access? Or at least swap daily access - if the latter you would have to clean after each pair to stop any disruption to their bonds.

Hopefully you work something out soon and get them a 2x4. Do they have two of everything?
 
Siikibam said:
Another thing you have to think about is whether you want a trio and single, or two pairs. It will be disruptive if you keep swapping Oscar to put him in with Ash then put him in with Coco & Peanut.

Did you put Oscar straight back in the cage with Ash? If you’re putting them together again, you really should re-introduce on neutral territory. Be aware he may ‘defend’ his territory. I’m assuming that you separated them today?

another thought I had. Is there a way you could attach a run to the cage so they can have permanent access? Or at least swap daily access - if the latter you would have to clean after each pair to stop any disruption to their bonds.

Hopefully you work something out soon and get them a 2x4. Do they have two of everything?
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I did put them straight back in together, but they were only separated for a couple of hours so the bond wasn't lost. They've had similar times apart due to previous vet trips and what not so.

Their cage is on my desk, so unless I somehow make a ramp that can drop from my desk height to the floor, then an extra run isn't possible. Ash and Oscar have two of everything, whereas Peanut and Coco only have one food bowl/one water bottle between them (They know how to share so it isn't an issue).
 
Would your parents be willing to get you one of those bunk beds with a desk underneath? Then perhaps you’d have room for the cage on the opposite side. Or moving them outside and giving them more space as pairs?...Otherwise I don’t know what you can do I’m afraid.
 
Siikibam said:
Would your parents be willing to get you one of those bunk beds with a desk underneath? Then perhaps you’d have room for the cage on the opposite side. Or moving them outside and giving them more space as pairs?...Otherwise I don’t know what you can do I’m afraid.
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Going from a double bed to a single with a tiny desk underneath would be pretty pointless in my opinion. I don't want to move them outside because of the extra heating and what not, plus we have nowhere to put them outside.

I'll try get them moved into a 4x2 and that's the best I can do, they seem happy enough in their current setup, and they still get floor time downstairs and sometimes upstairs.
 
Dom R said:
I did put them straight back in together, but they were only separated for a couple of hours so the bond wasn't lost. They've had similar times apart due to previous vet trips and what not so.
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Unfortunately due to there being blood drawing nips and bullying, their bond is failing/lost. Separating for vet trips etc - well, with boars they should either be permanently together or permanently apart - even some time apart like this can cause problems.
If one of my boys needs a vet trip, then I always take them both so they constantly remain together.
 
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