Ca:p Ratio And Changing The Menu For Bladder Pigs

[cavy love]

I thought I had pretty much perfected my guineas daily diet, but lo and behold, there are problems! One of my girls had some bladder issues, which have since been resolved. I've always had them on a low calcium diet, thinking the Ca : P ratio would be fine, but upon reading @Laura-CCC4 amazing sticky about Ca : P ratios, I've figured out how wrong that was! After some further research, I'm starting to think that her problems might have resulted in a reversed Ca : P ratio and the build up of phosphate crystals in the bladder, which I don't want to return.

In any case, I'm trying to re-perfect my daily vegetables but am a bit stumped on a few things. My piggies get romaine lettuce, green/red/yellow pepper, cherry tomatoes every day and cucumber/carrot every couple of days. They get coriander, parsley, and basil as treats, but very little and not every day. I want to balance things out with some more calcium rich options, but am having problems deciding what to add. My primary concerns are: a lot of the high calcium options that are cost effective/readily accessible, like cabbage, kale, even rocket, are brassicas and can cause gas; spinach is high in oxalates which could make the calcium problem even worse (Bubble, the one with bladder issues is just a sensitive little girl...); and simply put, they don't like some of the other options (celery, chicory).

There are quite a few herbs suggested (basil, dill, parsley, coriander), but I'm not sure how much to feed (grams) per day in order to really make a difference? I'm not sure if they even get gassy, and I've only fed them a tiny bit of kale in the past because I'm scared to find out! I just don't know what to do because they really like their daily menu, but I know it could cause problems.

Thanks in advance and sorry for the huge explanation!

 

[helen105281]

I feed a low calcium diet and since feeding it have had no issues with stones, apart from my Maddie who developed a stone at the beginning resulting from their old diet.

I feed daily (but in very small amounts): Coriander, celery, green beans, cucumber, pepper and spring greens. They have unlimited hay and a wide variety of different types and I feed Bunny Guinea Pig Basic pellets from Zooplus which have low calcium, low protein and an ideal Calcium : Phosphorous ratio. The diet was put together by a friend who runs a piggy clinic at a vets and she has never had a stone in her own pigs. This diet has also been approved by vets as being as close to a natural diet as you can get, though one vet said they would feed no veg at all.

I never feed spinach, kale romaine, parsley or any fruit.

 

[cavy love]

I feed a low calcium diet and since feeding it have had no issues with stones, apart from my Maddie who developed a stone at the beginning resulting from their old diet.

I feed daily (but in very small amounts): Coriander, celery, green beans, cucumber, pepper and spring greens. They have unlimited hay and a wide variety of different types and I feed Bunny Guinea Pig Basic pellets from Zooplus which have low calcium, low protein and an ideal Calcium : Phosphorous ratio. The diet was put together by a friend who runs a piggy clinic at a vets and she has never had a stone in her own pigs. This diet has also been approved by vets as being as close to a natural diet as you can get, though one vet said they would feed no veg at all.

I never feed spinach, kale romaine, parsley or any fruit.

Thanks for the suggestions! Unfortunately, my guinea pigs are not very fond of celery or green beans. I've tried them on both, but it's just left on the plate.

I'm hoping to achieve an ideal Ca : P ratio - close to 1.3:1, as suggested, because from what I've found in my research, a diet too low in calcium (which is what is currently the case) can actually result in phosphate stones and bone demineralisation - just as bad as a diet too high in calcium. Guinea Lynx's page on stones has more information under the Ca : P heading.

I'm feeding VetCare Plus Multi-Modal Formula for Guinea Pigs, which was recommended by my vet, and also has low calcium (0.5%) and is for guinea pigs with sensitive tummies and bladders. It's supposed to help promote natural feeding behaviour and an extended feeding time (which it does). It's made by Supreme and similar to their Fiba First. The 'Bunny' pellets look interesting, though - quite a varied list of ingredients from your standard Oxbow (which was bad for mine) and similar pellets. It's so tough to know what's best!

 

[helen105281]

I know the person who put the diet that I follow together spent a vast amount of time researching it and would have considered the effects of there being too little calcium. I can find out though, but it may not be straight away. I think it is a matter of getting the balance right as you say.

The Bunny is a very natural pellet and that's what I like about it, it is full of things that they would eat in the wild. I don't feed the Vetcare Multimodal as though it is advertised as being good for bladder pigs it contains cranberry which is not recommended for pigs with Interstitial cystitis (I have 2 with this) as it can make it worse. It is the same in humans, doctors won't allow a friend with this condition to have cranberry juice.

 

[cavy love]

I know the person who put the diet that I follow together spent a vast amount of time researching it and would have considered the effects of there being too little calcium. I can find out though, but it may not be straight away. I think it is a matter of getting the balance right as you say.

That would helpful, if it's not too much trouble! Please feel free to PM me. I was also wondering why you don't feed kale or parsley? I would guess that it would be ok if you're not also feeding all three of celery, coriander, and spring greens (especially since spring greens, which are essentially cabbage, and kale are from the same family) - in other words, they can be switched out?

The Bunny is a very natural pellet and that's what I like about it, it is full of things that they would eat in the wild. I don't feed the Vetcare Multimodal as though it is advertised as being good for bladder pigs it contains cranberry which is not recommended for pigs with Interstitial cystitis (I have 2 with this) as it can make it worse. It is the same in humans, doctors won't allow a friend with this condition to have cranberry juice.

That's also interesting - would the cranberry potentially cause interstitial cystitis? I was told that it was supposed to be good for their bladders! I had never really heard of Bunny before, but it looks like a good switch. Is the food consistent between bags in terms of quality? I'm slightly put off by VetCare Multi-Modal because different batches smell and look different, and I recently got one that smelled like rancid cooking oil!

And thank you so much for your help! Sorry I have so many questions!

 

[helen105281]

Yes the batches are consistent so far. Only been on it for 6 months or so.

I think cranberry irritates the bladder of pigs who already have it. I know of a pig that hemorraged blood after being given it and they had Interstitial cystitis. It is supposedly good for pigs who have an actual infection but I recoil in horror when I hear of bladders being flushed with it especially when people don't know for certain the pig doesn't have IC.

I have been advised against feeding kale and parsley as they are higher in calcium and the amount of spring greens we feed is minimal. I am not 100% sure of the logic behind it and the different ratios just know that my friend has had no issues in her own pigs and it works for her. I will find out for you when she is available but it may not be straight away.

Happy to help, sorry am a bit vague, just going by what I have been advised to do with my own pigs.

 

[cavy love]

Yes the batches are consistent so far. Only been on it for 6 months or so.

I think cranberry irritates the bladder of pigs who already have it. I know of a pig that hemorraged blood after being given it and they had Interstitial cystitis. It is supposedly good for pigs who have an actual infection but I recoil in horror when I hear of bladders being flushed with it especially when people don't know for certain the pig doesn't have IC.

I have been advised against feeding kale and parsley as they are higher in calcium and the amount of spring greens we feed is minimal. I am not 100% sure of the logic behind it and the different ratios just know that my friend has had no issues in her own pigs and it works for her. I will find out for you when she is available but it may not be straight away.

Happy to help, sorry am a bit vague, just going by what I have been advised to do with my own pigs.

Not at all! This is really very helpful - any extra information helps with a decision! And thank you again for finding out. May I ask the amount of spring greens you feed (grams)? And how often? You're so lucky to have a friend who specialises in these issues!

 

[helen105281]

Not sure about grams as I don't weigh it (unlike my own food at the mo - on a diet) but it is literally a small strip. They have it once a day .

She is a godsend, has taught me all I know.