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Charlie - is there anything else I can do?

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Pebble

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Hi all

Some of you are aware, there is a bug going through my herd that is antibiotic resistant and despite cultures etc we do not know what it is yet. It starts off as a respiratory - some pigs also get renal involvement and most develop fluid on the lungs-(heart problems whether genetic or from infection will be ruled in or out by echo by a specialist vet - to be performed in early Jan) Some had had impaction/gas in the caecum but this could be due to the effects of the antibiotics (firstly baytril, now on septrin) Last night I lost Whisp very suddenly (possibly stroke) in the same way I lost Pebble in early October whose sudden death was what started this whole nightmare. Whisp's body was delivered for PM to the specialist vets last night for culture and histology but obviously it will take some time to get back the results. Whatever this bug is, it starts as a URI but then it looks like it affects other organs including the heart brain and kidneys.

My immediate problem is Charlie. He was one of the last to start showing signs of this bug, developing respiratory symptoms two weeks ago that started with a runny nose and along with the rest of the herd was put on septrin. This has kept the respiratory symptoms at low level in most of them. However yesterday evening his breathing became very laboured and it is clear there is now a considerable fluid build up affecting the lungs. Unlike the other piggies, respiratory signs are all that he is showing at the moment apart from a sensitive area on his back where a vet removed a cyst whilst doing a neutering operation in late August.

He is still on septrin. I have given him a one-off dose of sudofed yesterday, sniffs of Olbas Oil today and lastly started on frusemide this afternoon (2mg/kg twice daily). I have put damp towels on the radiators to up the humidity (although the radiator nearest to him is switched off). He is still eating veggies/dried food/hay but finds it very difficult to take a syringe/liquids because of his breathing difficulties. He is pooping normally and peeing but I am slightly concerned he is not drinking enough and am trying to get runny Recovery down him but this is in very small doses.
Is there anything more I can do tonight to ease his breathing and stop the fluid build up in his lungs from possibly suffocating him which is my worst fear? I have rung my vets and they say that I’m doing all I can but to repeat the diuretic every 6 hours and make sure he gets plenty of fluids. They have pointed out that if the fluid on the lungs is from an inflammatory reaction then the diuretic won’t help so he is also on metacam for anti inflammatory purposes.

I guess it's just a matter of keeping him comfortable and crossing all paws - but if anyone can offer any other suggestions to buy more time for Charlie until the PM results from Whisp come through, I'd be very grateful.
 
I am so sorry and send my best wishes to poor Charlie! You must feel so gutted as you are doing your very best...

Sadly, I can't help you any better - I have no experience in that respect.

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I normally give the recommended dose of Frusemide as 10mg, first dose, with a repeat of 5mg, if necessary.
You must use an expectorant to clear the fluid from the lungs as well as a diuretic.
 
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I normally give the recommended dose of Frusemide as 10mg, first dose, with a repeat of 5mg, if necessary.
You must use an expectorant to clear the fluid from the lungs as well as a diuretic.

Hi AP

Thanks for the dosage info about Frusemide - I will give him 4mg now and again in 4 hours time giving a total today of 10mg.

What type of expectorant would you use and at what dose? Vet said the paediatric sudofed (pseudoephedrine hydrochloride) I was using would dry out the mucous membranes too much. I have adult sudafed capsules I could dissolve in water (phenylephrine hydrochloride) and benylin for chesty coughs (guafinesin and levomenthol).

His breathing has calmed down slighty over the last couple of hours.
 
Sending healing vibes to the wee one, sorry that's all I can do.
 
Sudafed 0.2ml twice daily.
Bisolvon powder POM is also effective at decreasing the secretions.
Rimadyl would also help, as an anti-inflammatory/pain killer.
 
I remember you told me about this on the phone. I'm so sorry that you haven't managed to stop it yet.
Fingers crossed for Charlie!
 
Thanks everyone.

He's much perkier today - but breathing is still very noisy. He's booked in to the vets today so we'll see what they say.
 
Chylothorax

The plot thickens!

Charlie had a pleural effusion - his chest was full of milky white fluid (ie around the lungs not inside). The vet drained off over 20ml and has sent it to the lab. It was full of lymphocytes (as opposed to infection/neutrophils/pus - but still getting microbial culture done), so he says this is a probably a case of chylothorax which is where the fluid has come from the lymphatic system. It's more often found in cats and the cause is not really known (although we do need to rule out malignancy). Its recurring and the only remedy in cats is to ligate the thoracic duct that carries the lymph into the blood - He says there is no mention in the literature of this condition occurring in guinea pigs, so doesn;t know if thoracic ligation would be possible or successful. He didn;t get all the fluid off so Charlie is on frusemide for the forseeable short-term future and may longer term have to have repeated drains under GA which, bearing in mind he is only 18months old, could be quite risky.

I am going to retrieve Whisps body tomorow from the specialist vets and have a consultation with them. Gross pathology showed absolutely everything including her heart size was normal but the microbial and histological test results will not be back for a week.

I shall take Charlie plus two other pigs with me and will ask them about possible surgery for him and where we go from here regarding echos etc that were planned for early January on a selection of piggies. (Chylothorax might be genetic in cats and many of my pigs are litter mates)

Thank you everyone for your support and suggestions - I'm really pleased Charlie made it through the last 24 hours and he now tucking into some lettuce as a reward for good behaviour.

Will continue to update this once we have a diagnosis for the rest of the herd.
 
Blimey, he sounds like a medical mystery indeed! I do hope he continues to fight and make progress. It sounds like you're doing absolutely everything you can for the little guy and your other pigs - I hope there is some sort of resolution soon.

Sophie
x
 
I have just been reading this thread and have found it very interesting. Although i cannot offer any advice i just want to say what a great job you are doing and I'm glad to hear that Charlie's breathing is improving slightly and i do hope that he can have surgery and make a full recovery.

I shall continue to follow this thread and i really do hope that charlie gets better soon and maybe the vet may find a medication suitable for him.

Sending lots of healing vibes.
 
And then there were 9

:(
Charlie's breathing deteriorated overnight and an x ray this morning showed the chest cavity had even more fluid in it than last time. Unfortunately he didn;t make it through the subsequent procedure to drain his chest....but having said that maybe it was a blessing in disguise as he couldn;t keep having his chest drained repeatedly every few days and a decision would have had to be made soon if there was no improvement (an operation to put in a shunt was ruled out by the exotics vet as far too risky). PM is being done today to try to establish if the cause was genetic defect/trauma/malignancy or infection. He was only 18 months old.:0. RIP my little cheekie chappie.

Infuriatingly microbiology and histology results from Whisp's PM (and also the prevous sample from Charlie's chest) are not in yet and won;t be til next week - and I'm not prepared to wait any longer with my pigs worsening each day.

So, exotic vet has agreed to order Azithromycin on monday to arrive tuesday (Thank you Furry Friends - my exotics vet Alberto will be ringing your vet to discuss dosages) and in the interim I have discussed aggressive palliative care for each of the remaining 9 should any go downhill over the weekend.


Grommie and Beech, the two worst affected, will go on fortekor (1mg/kg) and frusemide (2mg/kg) heart medication twice daily (Grommie was in a terrible state last night and I didn;t think he would make it through the night untill I gave him a 5mg dose of frusemide). They will be having echos next friday to confirm any heart condition. I have already had a successful resolution to the breathing problems with Muffin who was the only one diagnosed as a heart pig at the time this all kicked off. She has now been on this for three months and is completely OK (apart from some sludgy urine following a urine infection).

Maple will also be put on heart meds for a few days as he had become very lethargic, breathing has got worse and is showing signs of cyanosis around his lips/tongue. Again he will be taken for echo next friday.

The remaining piggies (Willow, Ginger, Bailey, Iroko and Bandit) will just continue on the septrin but if any get worse then they will be put on 2mg/kg fruseamide twice daily short term and some metacam. As their breathing problems are deep seated (ie a lower repiratory tract problem within the lungs themselves rather than the upper airways) the exotic vet has said frusemide will work better then any expectorant.

Hopefully next week we will have some answers, some azithromycin .....and the nebuliser I ordered earlier this week. What we need to find out is whether this is caused by infection or a genetic (heart) defect or a combination (although many of the pigs are genetically related - Bailey and Bandit are not but they too are showing symptoms hence why infection is still believed to be the main cause). In any case I will be getting X rays and echos done on all remaining pigs to determine any heart problems/pleural effusion etc.

Will keep updating.....but feeling absolutely gutted and powerless today...
 
I'm so sorry to hear about Charlie, I can't imagine how helpless you must feel at the moment. No advice I'm afraid, but just wanted to say I'm thinking of you.

Sophie
x
 
So sorry to hear about charlie but you really did do everything you could to save him and at least now he isnt in any pain and is running free at rainbow bridge.

RIP little charlie, gone but not forgotten.
 
I'm so sorry that you are having such a hard time at the moment, I hope you can get some answers soon & that the rest of piggies can amke a full recovery xx
Sleep well Charlie x
 
Sorry to hear what a rough time you and your piggies are having but you can rest easy knowing that you are going far beyond what most piggies owners would consider doing for their pigs and for this i congratulate you. Hope you manage to get to the seat of problem and get the answers you seek!

RIP charlie and friends
 
I'm so sorry to hear about Charlie - this is a dreadful time for you, and I wish I could help, but all I can do is keep you and your piggies in my thoughts.
 
Thanx everyone

The worst thing today was letting Charlie's friend know...and feeling that I;d let both Charlie and him down.
CharlieandNumpty.jpg


Having said that - I have 9 guineas left:

All of my lovely piggies are deteriorating...Grommie nearly died last night....I am making my own decisions and medicating just to keep them firstly pain-free, and secondly, alive

I have had stern words with both vets concerned today and we have agreed a course of action ....but it really hacks me off that we are now discussing "emergency palliative care" that is "off prescription" (NB at MY instigation) until their effing results come through..

I have enough medications to hopefully keep my pigs alive (and pain-free/confortable) til we get new antibiotics on tuesday. But won;t be til next weekend that hopefully, pending the PM results, we may crack this horrible bug/cause and get on top of it. I hope I don;t lose any more in the interim: Grommie, Beech, Maple and Ginger are of particular concern..

I am SO gutted...weeping buckets.......and frightened for my pigs....
4 lovely piggies die in as as many months..9 others affected..£1700 vets bills TO DATE (and increasing) ...and still no diagnosis...who's kidding who?

I want to know the rest of my piggies can be cured/will be fine and I don;t have to wake up every morning wondering if I will find yet another dead body...but funnily enough..I am the one making the running on this ....providing them with all the data/scientific papers/values etc,...yet I am paying them for their so-called expertise....shurely shome mishtake ?

Sorry for the rant...but it;s needed..and if I can;t rant here...then where else ?

xx
 
Good grief what a time of it you are having and I totally understand your rant. You are absolutely right - it speaks volumes that you are the one providing all the information and doing all the running. I salute you and your efforts. So sorry to hear about your lost piggies and I hope you get to the bottom of it all soon.

Hugs to you
 
AWWW - I am so sorry that you lost poor Charlie! What a sweet little cheeky boy he was!

I am keeping my fingers crossed that you can find out what is at the bottom of it all before you lose any more.

BIG HUG
 
I'm really sorry to hear about the terrible time you're having with your piggies. :(

You've probably already done this, but I just wanted to be clear that you're keeping the guinea-pigs' living quarters super clean (with proper disinfectants - e.g. those from sph supplies - not the ones you'd get from pet shops). Antibiotics are not going to help if they keep on reinfecting themselves from their surroundings. What bedding are you keeping them on?
 
I'm really sorry to hear about the terrible time you're having with your piggies. :(

You've probably already done this, but I just wanted to be clear that you're keeping the guinea-pigs' living quarters super clean (with proper disinfectants - e.g. those from sph supplies - not the ones you'd get from pet shops). Antibiotics are not going to help if they keep on reinfecting themselves from their surroundings. What bedding are you keeping them on?


Awwww....Thank you Furries HUn... and very good point.

Don't wish to come across as a Mrs "Butt".........BUT..I am hyper about secondary spread (being a microbiologist) ...different disinfectants rotated each week, bin all the bedding and get new stock from somewhere different each time, separate syringes/clothing etc etc...we have ruled out virtually everything envinronmental....and minimised cross-contamination (still therefore confused)

Bedding WAS megasorb (which was new when this started) so changed back to P@H wood shavings, (no probs for 10 years) This is underneath newspaper (with staples all removed). On top is barley straw (P@H dust xtracted fine litter etc etc) as litter and then long barley straw (for burrowing) and meadow hay (for eating/burrowing) from local pet centre which takes samples off bales.

Other environmental things carefully researched/considered and ruled out

Wish it were that easy...and thanks for you consideration...it means a lot,..please feel free to keep suggesting...either publicly or by PM


xxxxx
xx
 
Just a wee thought but have you checked for a fungal contaminant, like aspergilosis. I had an outbreak in my elderly hens, mainy due to reduced immunity due to age, the damp warm conditions of autumn and then a cold spell to futher knock my old birds. A sample sent of was determined as being Geotrichum candidum, but the symptoms are similar to Aspergillosis. It can also affect quite a few areas, one of our cockerels died due to a heart problem, 2 to growths in the throat, but it a can affect all organs. It is not due to unhygienic conditions, my birds have lots of room and are cleaned weekly, but it can be due to contaminated hay, straw etc. My birds were treated with 'sporanox', it is expensive but I have only lost 3 males and they were showing symptoms by the time we diagnosed the problem, the rest of the flock is fine.
It may be something worth asking your vet about and doing tests for if this is an ongoing problem.
 
Just a wee thought but have you checked for a fungal contaminant, like aspergilosis. I had an outbreak in my elderly hens, mainy due to reduced immunity due to age, the damp warm conditions of autumn and then a cold spell to futher knock my old birds. A sample sent of was determined as being Geotrichum candidum, but the symptoms are similar to Aspergillosis. It can also affect quite a few areas, one of our cockerels died due to a heart problem, 2 to growths in the throat, but it a can affect all organs. It is not due to unhygienic conditions, my birds have lots of room and are cleaned weekly, but it can be due to contaminated hay, straw etc. My birds were treated with 'sporanox', it is expensive but I have only lost 3 males and they were showing symptoms by the time we diagnosed the problem, the rest of the flock is fine.
It may be something worth asking your vet about and doing tests for if this is an ongoing problem.

Hi hp..Bless you.....Very very good point...and thnx for making it...I have discussed time and again with the exotic vet about fungal..he is not connviced but I personallly haven;t ruled out Actinomycetes and Nocardia...hence why I'm hoping the Pm results will give us something to go on

Please please keep posting any more suggestions/symptoms etc as it is all very very useful....even if only to eliminate

x
 
I'm so sorry you have lost Charlie, but hoping that the azithromycin will help. If your vet leaves a message for Simon he will definitely call him back. I did give you the phone number didn't I?

Hi Hun

Yes thank you - you did. My vet **** won;t phone til monday (Seers Croft, Horsham)

I'm just so pleased that at last they have decided to drop the "professional - we won;t prescribe til we know what it is" stance to "let's throw the best we've got at it". Ordinarily I would support the former...but with so many deaths and time ticking away.(and withdrawing antibioitics for at least a week so they could take samples)......it; gone on too long now for the scientific approach.

x
 
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